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      06-21-2016, 08:56 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by snipe View Post
So where can we find your similar complaints about BMW producing cars in America (with the risk of ending up with cars just as crappy as any Dodge or Oldsmobile) or the engine factory in Graz (Austria)?
I have the same complaints, but those are mainly x cars which are cars I personally don't care about, nor are they part of the core BMW brand or were never made in Germany. They are specially made for the North American market. Moving the whole 3 series to Mexico for the North American market is a massive change in BMW that effects a wide range of people and is a major shift in the company. We pay a premium for BMW, and part of the value (for me anyway) in part with the extra dollars is know it was outsourced or made by the lowest bidder "over seas". In the end some will continue to buy BMWs, but by the time I'm ready to replace my F80 if the current M3 is made in Mexico when I'm ready to add buy another I'll simply move on to a different brand.


I'll tell you another thing about this that bugs me. Generations of Germans have built this company, and now their jobs have shipped overseas. Germans are very proud of what they've built, and if you,be been you know especially in southern Germany BMW is a jewel in the crown. It's a shame their jobs are being shipped over seas to the lowest bidder.

I'm sure the person cheering for Mexico wouldn't be happy if a major Mexican brand shipped to China causing many Mexicans to loose their jobs, and the integrety of the brand built by Mexicans be diluted now that Mexicans no longer put their pride and energy into maintaining it.

Sign of the times, but doesn't mean I'll subscribe to it.
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      06-21-2016, 09:53 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Sassicaia View Post
I have the same complaints, but those are mainly x cars which are cars I personally don't care about, nor are they part of the core BMW brand or were never made in Germany. They are specially made for the North American market. Moving the whole 3 series to Mexico for the North American market is a massive change in BMW that effects a wide range of people and is a major shift in the company. We pay a premium for BMW, and part of the value (for me anyway) in part with the extra dollars is know it was outsourced or made by the lowest bidder "over seas". In the end some will continue to buy BMWs, but by the time I'm ready to replace my F80 if the current M3 is made in Mexico when I'm ready to add buy another I'll simply move on to a different brand.
You keep saying things like this. BMW has made no statement that all North American 3er production will come from this Mexican plant. To do that they would have to ship virtually 100% of the stated capacity to the U.S., leaving no capacity to be sold in other markets. Additional X3 production is slated to move to Rosslyn, SA. By default the implication is that Mexico 3er production will replace South Africa production. Regular 3er production and ///M3, ///M4 production does not take place on the same assembly line and there is no indication BMWAG would move any of that limited production to this new plant.

While the original X3 was not produced in Germany it was produced in Europe, in Austria.

Regarding X models being "specially made for the North American market", apparently you are unaware that 70% of X model production in South Carolina is exported worldwide. That actually makes BMW the largest exporter in the country of U.S. produced vehicles.
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      06-21-2016, 09:55 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassicaia View Post
I have the same complaints, but those are mainly x cars which are cars I personally don't care about, nor are they part of the core BMW brand or were never made in Germany. They are specially made for the North American market. Moving the whole 3 series to Mexico for the North American market is a massive change in BMW that effects a wide range of people and is a major shift in the company. We pay a premium for BMW, and part of the value (for me anyway) in part with the extra dollars is know it was outsourced or made by the lowest bidder "over seas". In the end some will continue to buy BMWs, but by the time I'm ready to replace my F80 if the current M3 is made in Mexico when I'm ready to add buy another I'll simply move on to a different brand.


I'll tell you another thing about this that bugs me. Generations of Germans have built this company, and now their jobs have shipped overseas. Germans are very proud of what they've built, and if you,be been you know especially in southern Germany BMW is a jewel in the crown. It's a shame their jobs are being shipped over seas to the lowest bidder.

I'm sure the person cheering for Mexico wouldn't be happy if a major Mexican brand shipped to China causing many Mexicans to loose their jobs, and the integrety of the brand built by Mexicans be diluted now that Mexicans no longer put their pride and energy into maintaining it.

Sign of the times, but doesn't mean I'll subscribe to it.
BMW saves in labour costs and imports the cars into the USA and Canada via NAFTA. We still pay a higher price while BMW makes more offshore profits.
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      06-21-2016, 10:06 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by bringonthenite View Post
BMW saves in labour costs and imports the cars into the USA and Canada via NAFTA. We still pay a higher price while BMW makes more offshore profits.
I think you'd probably need to take a long hard look at the market BMW competes in. They have to lower their costs TO SURVIVE. BMW makes similar profits to their main two competitors and they ALL are looking for ways to save. If BMW falls behind it'd end up bought out by a competitor or worse.

Nobody is padding any pockets here. It is a race to stay in the same place. And for survival.

If you get exactly the same product but in one case was built by one German and in the other by a Chinese, what is it to you what the company's internal cost structure is???
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      06-21-2016, 12:55 PM   #159
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We're getting no where, so maybe we all agree to disagree. I say we pick up this discussion in 2019.
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      06-21-2016, 01:04 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by pz619 View Post
We're getting no where, so maybe we all agree to disagree. I say we pick up this discussion in 2019.
Good call.
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      06-21-2016, 02:57 PM   #161
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This discussion has been pretty fascinating, and I think it's healthy as long as everyone can remember to respect each other's view even if those views do not agree with yours.

I hope to bring another perspective into this discussion. and that is the image and expectation that comes with a brand like BMW. BMW has worked hard for so long to build up their image and to have "BMW" brand to signify the Bavarian pride. So munch advertising dollar has gone into building up "German Engineering" concept, image and everything that goes with it. There is a large number of long-time BMW fans here, and all of us have been "trained" to associate BMW as German born and German made premium driving machines whenever we see the BMW roundel. BMW museum continues to educate and reinforce the company's history in building amazing cars in Germany.

Now here BMW is announcing to start building their bread and butter car, the 3 series, for North American markets in countries that are not known for building well known premium cars like BMW 3 series. This will be hard to hear, but there immediately is a conflict with the expectation and image in people's mind. I am not sure if "prejudice" is the right term, but sure, let's go with that. All brands build up image in people's mind, and that image comes with certain expectations and prejudice. Therefore, people's strong reaction today is definitely expected and understandable because we have been trained to have certain expectation and "prejudice" when looking at the BMW roundel. BMW's image and expectation also contributed to people's strong reaction when they heard BMW wanted to build their first SUV (X5), or when BMW wanted to build their first FWD car, the current F48 X1 and 2 series gran tourer.

Therefore, for this discussion, it will take some time for people to get used to and accept Mexico-made 3-series given how people think of BMW for decades, and some may never accept it and move on to other brands. It can be hard to hear and not to take it as a personal attack for people who take pride in Mexico, but with a brand with such successful and strong image, it will take time and much effort to change how people perception and expectation. Remember how much time and how much effort Audi had to put in to shed the bad image from problem=prone Audi cars in the 1980s. It literally took them over a decade of effort including renaming their cars from numeric alone to the "A" cars. It is definitely possible for countries like Mexico and China to build world-class, reliable cars that are worthy BMW's name, but it will require time and much effort to modify the image and expectation (or prejudice) that comes with BMW roundel.
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      06-21-2016, 03:14 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M Power Mexico View Post
Can you point us to the announcement of BMW factory closures/jobs lost in Germany because of this new Mexico plant? Fact is you're making this up as you go!

I answered pretty clearly. The shoe manufacturing example I mentioned was precisely that: moving production from Mexico (jobs lost) to China (jobs created). I am fine with that.

It seems that you don't read my responses really.
BMW associates within the plant works that build the 3er also build a variety of other models also. But with demand for the 3er strong across the globe and set to continue with the all new G20.
BMW Associates are very much kept busy building the 3er for many other markets including the USA.
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      06-21-2016, 03:36 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by pbjjj View Post
This discussion has been pretty fascinating, and I think it's healthy as long as everyone can remember to respect each other's view even if those views do not agree with yours.

I hope to bring another perspective into this discussion. and that is the image and expectation that comes with a brand like BMW. BMW has worked hard for so long to build up their image and to have "BMW" brand to signify the Bavarian pride. So munch advertising dollar has gone into building up "German Engineering" concept, image and everything that goes with it. There is a large number of long-time BMW fans here, and all of us have been "trained" to associate BMW as German born and German made premium driving machines whenever we see the BMW roundel. BMW museum continues to educate and reinforce the company's history in building amazing cars in Germany.

Now here BMW is announcing to start building their bread and butter car, the 3 series, for North American markets in countries that are not known for building well known premium cars like BMW 3 series. This will be hard to hear, but there immediately is a conflict with the expectation and image in people's mind. I am not sure if "prejudice" is the right term, but sure, let's go with that. All brands build up image in people's mind, and that image comes with certain expectations and prejudice. Therefore, people's strong reaction today is definitely expected and understandable because we have been trained to have certain expectation and "prejudice" when looking at the BMW roundel. BMW's image and expectation also contributed to people's strong reaction when they heard BMW wanted to build their first SUV (X5), or when BMW wanted to build their first FWD car, the current F48 X1 and 2 series gran tourer.

Therefore, for this discussion, it will take some time for people to get used to and accept Mexico-made 3-series given how people think of BMW for decades, and some may never accept it and move on to other brands. It can be hard to hear and not to take it as a personal attack for people who take pride in Mexico, but with a brand with such successful and strong image, it will take time and much effort to change how people perception and expectation. Remember how much time and how much effort Audi had to put in to shed the bad image from problem=prone Audi cars in the 1980s. It literally took them over a decade of effort including renaming their cars from numeric alone to the "A" cars. It is definitely possible for countries like Mexico and China to build world-class, reliable cars that are worthy BMW's name, but it will require time and much effort to modify the image and expectation (or prejudice) that comes with BMW roundel.
Great post.

I put value in the romance of countries excelling at things based on the differences of their cultures. BMW is a great example, just like Ferrari, any number of Frech wines and Scotish single malt whiskeys etc. Perhaps my upbringing has trained me that way, but to be honest I'm glad it did.

All other arguments aside, I just like the fact my car comes from Germany even if all things are equal. Heck I feel the same way about my Miele dishwasher.

I guess we are all different but I'm happy with the direction of buying criteria I've chosen to take, and I for one will be in the camp that never buys a BMW made in any other country but Germany.

Is want it is.
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      06-21-2016, 03:51 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbjjj View Post
This discussion has been pretty fascinating, and I think it's healthy as long as everyone can remember to respect each other's view even if those views do not agree with yours.

I hope to bring another perspective into this discussion. and that is the image and expectation that comes with a brand like BMW. BMW has worked hard for so long to build up their image and to have "BMW" brand to signify the Bavarian pride. So munch advertising dollar has gone into building up "German Engineering" concept, image and everything that goes with it. There is a large number of long-time BMW fans here, and all of us have been "trained" to associate BMW as German born and German made premium driving machines whenever we see the BMW roundel. BMW museum continues to educate and reinforce the company's history in building amazing cars in Germany.

Now here BMW is announcing to start building their bread and butter car, the 3 series, for North American markets in countries that are not known for building well known premium cars like BMW 3 series. This will be hard to hear, but there immediately is a conflict with the expectation and image in people's mind. I am not sure if "prejudice" is the right term, but sure, let's go with that. All brands build up image in people's mind, and that image comes with certain expectations and prejudice. Therefore, people's strong reaction today is definitely expected and understandable because we have been trained to have certain expectation and "prejudice" when looking at the BMW roundel. BMW's image and expectation also contributed to people's strong reaction when they heard BMW wanted to build their first SUV (X5), or when BMW wanted to build their first FWD car, the current F48 X1 and 2 series gran tourer.

Therefore, for this discussion, it will take some time for people to get used to and accept Mexico-made 3-series given how people think of BMW for decades, and some may never accept it and move on to other brands. It can be hard to hear and not to take it as a personal attack for people who take pride in Mexico, but with a brand with such successful and strong image, it will take time and much effort to change how people perception and expectation. Remember how much time and how much effort Audi had to put in to shed the bad image from problem=prone Audi cars in the 1980s. It literally took them over a decade of effort including renaming their cars from numeric alone to the "A" cars. It is definitely possible for countries like Mexico and China to build world-class, reliable cars that are worthy BMW's name, but it will require time and much effort to modify the image and expectation (or prejudice) that comes with BMW roundel.
Agreed. It'll take time to change people minds. Others have done it before successfully. Japan of course and now Korea.

And a small part of initiating that change in peoples minds are these kinds of discussions.

I'd go as far as saying that Mexico has already mostly done it (for non-premium brands) - I see mostly no complaints from Fusion, Beetle, Golf, Jetta, Fiat, etc etc etc buyers (at leats not regarding country of manufacture). With all 3 big German premium brands building here in the very near future I am confident that we will succeed as well on this new level.

The "never will change my mind" people, those are the ones that drive me crazy. But I guess that's true on all processes of change.
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      06-22-2016, 09:43 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassicaia View Post
Great post.

I put value in the romance of countries excelling at things based on the differences of their cultures. BMW is a great example, just like Ferrari, any number of Frech wines and Scotish single malt whiskeys etc. Perhaps my upbringing has trained me that way, but to be honest I'm glad it did.

All other arguments aside, I just like the fact my car comes from Germany even if all things are equal. Heck I feel the same way about my Miele dishwasher.

I guess we are all different but I'm happy with the direction of buying criteria I've chosen to take, and I for one will be in the camp that never buys a BMW made in any other country but Germany.

Is want it is.
Utterly agree with you!!!! No question about this statement! Many feel the same, but just will not voice their opinions.
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      06-22-2016, 09:53 AM   #166
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I think many people associate quality German products with the view that they are a reflection on the German ethos of high quality engineering values etc...so I can see why people would prefer their German car made in Germany as it gives the whole thing "authenticity"

Certainly in the UK we look at the Germans as being brilliant at designing and making things that last and work well.

Ferrari's built in Modena or Mini/Jaguar/Bentley/Rolls Royce built in the UK also give that sense of authenticity that is promoted and jealously guarded by many industries, food and drink being probably the best examples.

I don't think it's hating on the Mexicans if people would prefer their premium German car built in Germany, but heh the world moves on and things change.

I wouldn't want my M3 made in the UK or Mexico either and I wouldn't want a Rolls Royce that had been made in Berlin, I don't like it when I pick up a bottle of Corona beer to find out it's brewed under licence in the UK ruins it for me.
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      06-22-2016, 02:08 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2
I think many people associate quality German products with the view that they are a reflection on the German ethos of high quality engineering values etc...so I can see why people would prefer their German car made in Germany as it gives the whole thing "authenticity"

Certainly in the UK we look at the Germans as being brilliant at designing and making things that last and work well.

Ferrari's built in Modena or Mini/Jaguar/Bentley/Rolls Royce built in the UK also give that sense of authenticity that is promoted and jealously guarded by many industries, food and drink being probably the best examples.

I don't think it's hating on the Mexicans if people would prefer their premium German car built in Germany, but heh the world moves on and things change.

I wouldn't want my M3 made in the UK or Mexico either and I wouldn't want a Rolls Royce that had been made in Berlin, I don't like it when I pick up a bottle of Corona beer to find out it's brewed under licence in the UK ruins it for me.
Amen. Glad that M3 production is supposed to stay in Germany.
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