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      04-02-2016, 11:31 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
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Originally Posted by Pretender View Post
And Tesla 3 will kick more BMW 3 series ass when it starts delivery in 2017. A $35k car before Fed and State tax credits is just so disruptive. I'm a freaking long time BMW owner and had to put down $1000 deposit for Tesla 3. Why? Because a luxury car like that doesn't come very often with that price and $5 per full charge for $200+ miles is too good to pass up for a commuter.

There will be a new 3er around or even on sale by the same time Tesla eventually launches the Model 3 around 2018.
There are many out there who saw what happened to Fisker and are concerned that with Tesla the rug can be pulled from underneath them.
They had a 3er challenger in development and everybody placed deposits on.y to lose out when they went bankrupt.
Scott I think you should compare apples to apples. Tesla is not going bankrupt, you can count on that. Why is BMW focusing on SUVs and leaving the other vehicles left behind. Someone needs to express to BMW execs that the emotional feeling customers had with their vehicles is gone. There are cars for much cheaper that offer a better product or similar. Everyone has progressed while BMW has stayed behind. These days there really isn't a point to pay a premium to be behind the badge. Bmws competitors(Benz,Audi) have seriously stepped their game up big time. I guess this is one customer who has owned 12 vehicles saying things need to be taken to a new level or else BMW will lose a lot of those customers that have been loyal to the brand.

I never thought I would say this but Mercedes and Audi have been cranking some seriously impressive and beautiful machines lately. BMW has become a bland and boring machine. For gods sake get rid of the fake engine audio system in cars, the person who created this should be fired right away.

Btw, having owned an e36,e46,e92 m3 I was second in line at my dealer to get the new m and cancelled. It's become so bad I don't even know the chassis code for the new m3 lol
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      04-02-2016, 11:37 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Pretender View Post
And Tesla 3 will kick more BMW 3 series ass when it starts delivery in 2017. A $35k car before Fed and State tax credits is just so disruptive. I'm a freaking long time BMW owner and had to put down $1000 deposit for Tesla 3. Why? Because a luxury car like that doesn't come very often with that price and $5 per full charge for $200+ miles is too good to pass up for a commuter.
Once Tesla hits the 200k sales mark federal tax credits will be phased out within the year. It will decrease to $3750 for 6 months, $1875 for 6 months then zero.
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      04-02-2016, 12:43 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by 1cleanm3 View Post
I've owned bmws since 2004. A total of 8 in the last 12 years. There's a reason I still admire the e46 m3 until now. The built quality was better the driving experience superior the looks jaw dropping for its time. The same can be said about my e92 m3 I owned even though I felt like the built quality was better in the e46(less plastic). Regardless, these cars left an impact on me and I absolutely loved them! Even my 2005 Bmw 330ci zhp I admired. These are the last vehicles I remember being amazing from BMW. I'll never forget them.

Even though I currently own a 2015 640i m sport gran coupe, which I think is the sexiest car Bmw offers at the moment if things don't change I won't be driving another BMW. My wife has a 2015 528i which I don't understand how it has a 55k msrp. The car is all plastic, boring 4 cylinder, boring 4 cyclinder and boring looks. We went and drove an Audi A6 and it was a better car than the BMW in every way. Made me sad to think that if we had gotten the same deal as the BMW it would be in the driveway. Back in the days I would never even consider an Audi or Mercedes.

Moving forward, BMW once made me crazy, it was the ultimate driving machine. I don't find this to be true at all anymore, as a matter of fact I think everyone agrees. BMW has lost its touch and it needs to get it back. They once were an exciting company with die hard fans.
Exactly on point.. and the insiders like Scott26 don't get it. There is not one new BMW anymore that I am excited about owning. The new M3/4 is a major disappointment compared to the e9x
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      04-02-2016, 12:44 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
There will be a new 3er around or even on sale by the same time Tesla eventually launches the Model 3 around 2018.
There are many out there who saw what happened to Fisker and are concerned that with Tesla the rug can be pulled from underneath them.
They had a 3er challenger in development and everybody placed deposits on.y to lose out when they went bankrupt.
Scott, Tesla is going to eat BMW's lunch.
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      04-02-2016, 12:46 PM   #71
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Yes but sales increase dependent on the Q models in other words the SUVs. Which is the entire point. The SUV models whether for BMW,Mercedes-Benz and Audi are outselling models from the regular portfolio.

The next Q5 which is to be manufactured in Mexico is to be introduced in the Summer.
So the SUV is the answer to BMW's poor quality control management, lack of vision on electric cars and lack of inspiration on design and engineering for new product?

There are many things that BMW has been doing to chip away at their once revered engineering.. but pumping fake sound through the speakers is a highlight. I knew that BMW had really lost it when that idea reached production.
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      04-02-2016, 12:49 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1
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Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Because everyone is putting an order in for a Tesla 3.

First 24 hours Tesla has taken almost 200,000 deposits for one.

Agreed about the 3 series. Turning into just another car. No longer seems to be a BMW, so why not shop other brands as well.
It's the iPhone crowd. Want the newest gadget first. Won't last. I'll be surprised if they break 20,000 units in a year. Especially with all the other problems their other models have.
This same mentality killed Blackberry. EV is the future. BMW better get their butts together because I drove the Tesla Model S and it's fcking beast, fun to drive.
Ask anyone in this forum to see how the new X1 drive...ridiculous...my 2005 e90 is 10x better
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      04-02-2016, 12:59 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Pretender View Post
This same mentality killed Blackberry. EV is the future. BMW better get their butts together because I drove the Tesla Model S and it's fcking beast, fun to drive.
Ask anyone in this forum to see how the new X1 drive...ridiculous...my 2005 e90 is 10x better
Guess what guys? Tesla is an AMERICAN company, even more reason to support it.
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      04-02-2016, 01:11 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
I think they will sell a good amount first years but when the avg person starts driving a car with limited range and takes hours to recharge (superchargers are scarce try finding one near boston my home for example) people will regret their decision. Electrics may take 5-10 percent of the pie over time but not mass adoption
You don't know what you are talking about. Model S P90D range is over 400 miles. This Model 3 has 200+ mile range to begin with.
Also, Tesla SuperCharge stations can charge 80% capacity within 30 minutes. Besides, 15 seconds for battery swap if one needs to get back on the road quickly. You got to do some research on the car before pulling something out of your ass.
Now for a long strip, you got to know where you go and plan. Do you think you will drive through forests with your SUV without planning if you can make it with your gas tank without bringing a reserved container? Besides, now many people buying Tesla 3 for long distant driving? It's a commuting car which fit people perfectly for works and local driving or cross cities. Imaging driving from SF to LA only costs you $5 for fuel.
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      04-02-2016, 01:16 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spmd11
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
There will be a new 3er around or even on sale by the same time Tesla eventually launches the Model 3 around 2018.
There are many out there who saw what happened to Fisker and are concerned that with Tesla the rug can be pulled from underneath them.
They had a 3er challenger in development and everybody placed deposits on.y to lose out when they went bankrupt.
Scott, Tesla is going to eat BMW's lunch.
And thing with tesla is that they beat bmw at its new game (not driving dynamics because clearly bmw is not interested in building the ultimate driving machine anymore but the most wanted machine, and tesla with its apple style ceo and presentations upped the game over fake boring man in suits that faint in the middle of presentations).
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      04-02-2016, 01:17 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretender
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Because everyone is putting an order in for a Tesla 3.

First 24 hours Tesla has taken almost 200,000 deposits for one.

Agreed about the 3 series. Turning into just another car. No longer seems to be a BMW, so why not shop other brands as well.
It's the iPhone crowd. Want the newest gadget first. Won't last. I'll be surprised if they break 20,000 units in a year. Especially with all the other problems their other models have.
This same mentality killed Blackberry. EV is the future. BMW better get their butts together because I drove the Tesla Model S and it's fcking beast, fun to drive.
Ask anyone in this forum to see how the new X1 drive...ridiculous...my 2005 e90 is 10x better
Heck my (now sold) 1999 e46 was more fun to drive!
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      04-02-2016, 01:18 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by PennSt8 View Post
Once Tesla hits the 200k sales mark federal tax credits will be phased out within the year. It will decrease to $3750 for 6 months, $1875 for 6 months then zero.
Will see on that. People said that since the last 10 years and Fed credits are still there. Once, Tesla hit 200K and more later, they may not need Fed credits to sell their cars. With the Gigafactory in Nevada, they can produce batteries a lot cheaper and over time, their manufacturing improves will allow them to have cheaper/better batteries. Batteries costs 60% the cost of a Tesla car. Guess what happens if they can make battery for the1/2 price. Yup, their BOM cost for the car will drop 30%.
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      04-02-2016, 01:32 PM   #78
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Admittedly I have not driven a Tesla. People talk about how fast they are and their range. But are they fun to drive? Do they handle well? Maybe those qualities do not matter to most buyers.
I think a lot of us on these forums are dinosaurs. Most millennials I know do not have the same relationship with their cars that I have. They care more about the gadgets in the car than the driving qualities.
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      04-02-2016, 03:42 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
This is conclusive proof that the US Market is dependent on SUVs not just for BMW but all manufacturers that are represented in the US either domestic or foreign. You only have to look at the X models to see they are having higher gains than the conventional portfolio and not just something affecting BMW.

If you look at the new X1 it sales are rising rapidly and has once again retained its best selling compact SUV title in Europe.
The new 7er is also doing exceptional business.

With the US dependency on SUVs. There is plenty on the way to keep a strong sales momentum. The BMW X1 225e iPerformance is imminent as is the M Performance X1. The first BMW X2 model will also be offered for North America.

And guaranteed to make a huge impact will be the all new BMW X3 a car for many firsts.
To be made outside North America alongside Spartanburg at the multi-award winning Rosslyn plant in South Africa.

First to use a new X oriented architecture derived from BMWs CLAR matrix including Carbon Core. First X model to introduce the all new design language for X models. First X3 to introduce an extended wheelbase model for select markets.
The X3 will also introduce an all new X4 Sport Activity Coupe and with it the first generation of BMW X3 M and X4 M.

An all new BMW X5 is also on fast track but first a slight LCI is imminent for the F15.
And then the Premium market will receive its first luxury SUV from BMW.
The BMW X7. A vehicle that can be configured to accommodate seven in absolute practicality or four in absolute luxury. Two wheelbases allows X7 to be the 7er of SUVs and is the first of its kind from a German manufacturer.

But of the regular portfolio. There is a new 5er imminent, the 2er Sedan built in China for China at first. The first of its kind built and developed especially for one market. Offering BMW attributes in a compact and affordable compact body.
LCIs for the BMW 3er Gran Turismo and the BMW 2er and 4er.
The Extremely powerful and dynamic BMW M760Li and 740e iPerformance.
Europe will receive a new 750d.
An all new 5er Gran Turismo continuing its success of first class luxury but within a more dynamic and sleeker body.

The first of joint BMW-Toyota partnership brings forth the all new Z5 Roadster to be followed by a Coupe. Z5 will be extremely advanced and light for its class its material count will shame certain high end sports cars.
It will also be unique by offering specialised engines with power updates exclusive to this car only. This will be further highlighted by an all new Z5 M. Currently being tested.

The G30 5er begins the complete renewal of the rest of the BMW portfolio including the X3,3er,1er and 6er models first.
Then there is the latest progression for BMWi starting with the i3 this Summer and then the BMW i8 introducing the i8S and BMW i8 Roadster.

The further legislation to lower C02 limits in the EU and other markets will continue with more sustainable drivetrains and models reflecting the entry,luxury and high performance segments.

And then there is the additional brands of MINI and Rolls-Royce.
MINI will introduce an all new Countryman this Summer and will be joined by a sportier PACEMAN replacement aligned with the BMW X2 but this time featuring 5drs. An additional new MINI is coming to take advantage of a growing entry market and again part of a partnership. The current MINI will receive a "chin lift" to better integrate the air intakes like the new MINI Clubman.
And for the third time there will be a new MINI JCW GP which to those that have seen the strategy for it advise it has a similar aesthetic in lightweight materials to a BMW M4 GTS.

And with RR introducing its all new Aluminium space frame and architecture for its next generation of motor cars for the luxury plus segment. Starting with the new Phantom that will be the Worlds most advanced luxury car. Its engineering advises of a very exciting future for BMW.
And then the first RR "SUV" will arrive on the market.

The crowning achievement for BMW will showcase an entirely new direction and philosophy with two new vehicle BMWi NEXT and the 9er flagship.
The 9er will focus on assisted drivetrains as its main choice of power. But will reflect its status to deliver exceptional dynamics, refinement and Performance.
There has not been a more direct attempt to tap into the sporting side of the luxury plus segment which is where the 9er aims to accomplish.


Retaining a successful profit margin for the Luxury/Luxury + Segment. (BMW)

X7 (incl. V12 /MPerformance version)
7er inc. V12 MPerformance/iPerformance/Li
i8 Roadster (incl. iPerformance S version)
Z5 Joint BMW-Toyota Sports Car) (incl. M version)
9er Luxury Sports Sedan (incl MPerformance version)

Retaining a successful profit margin for the Luxury/Luxury + Segment. (Rolls-Royce)
Wraith/Dawn
Ghost/Ghost EWB
Phantom/ Phantom EWB
Cullinan
Roadster


It is easy to write BMW off but challenges tomorrow are greater than today in some cases.
But the future is well in hand. Its all about accepting the challenge and accomplishing it, sometimes with an entire new philosophy or a different direction.
There are more challenges to meet , accept and solve. Volume is not everything now as VAG has learned to their cost. Achieving profitability whilst meeting ever changing legislative targets is one direction BMW are focused on as well as the further issues that forever progress within research and development.
Boy you are in your element right now Mr. Marketer. I am sorry to tell you that you aren't the iphone of cars anymore. You thought you are ahead of the curve with the i series yet you see people lining up on someone else's door.
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Quote:
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BMW have tapped into this by mirroring typical BMW dynamics and steering communication within the new UKL cars.
You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      04-02-2016, 04:00 PM   #80
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Admittedly I have not driven a Tesla. People talk about how fast they are and their range. But are they fun to drive? Do they handle well? Maybe those qualities do not matter to most buyers.
I think a lot of us on these forums are dinosaurs. Most millennials I know do not have the same relationship with their cars that I have. They care more about the gadgets in the car than the driving qualities.
They aren't fast. They have great launch. That's about it. They don't handle. And they break more often than windows.
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      04-02-2016, 04:14 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroya
Admittedly I have not driven a Tesla. People talk about how fast they are and their range. But are they fun to drive? Do they handle well? Maybe those qualities do not matter to most buyers.
I think a lot of us on these forums are dinosaurs. Most millennials I know do not have the same relationship with their cars that I have. They care more about the gadgets in the car than the driving qualities.
Owning one for over two years, I can tell you one thing... I don't want to drive anything else
It's fast it's fun it's nimble for the size
Overall it's an amazing package
And I tow with it and haul three kids with it
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      04-02-2016, 04:21 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
This is conclusive proof that the US Market is dependent on SUVs not just for BMW but all manufacturers that are represented in the US either domestic or foreign. You only have to look at the X models to see they are having higher gains than the conventional portfolio and not just something affecting BMW.

If you look at the new X1 it sales are rising rapidly and has once again retained its best selling compact SUV title in Europe.
The new 7er is also doing exceptional business.

With the US dependency on SUVs. There is plenty on the way to keep a strong sales momentum. The BMW X1 225e iPerformance is imminent as is the M Performance X1. The first BMW X2 model will also be offered for North America.

And guaranteed to make a huge impact will be the all new BMW X3 a car for many firsts.
To be made outside North America alongside Spartanburg at the multi-award winning Rosslyn plant in South Africa.

First to use a new X oriented architecture derived from BMWs CLAR matrix including Carbon Core. First X model to introduce the all new design language for X models. First X3 to introduce an extended wheelbase model for select markets.
The X3 will also introduce an all new X4 Sport Activity Coupe and with it the first generation of BMW X3 M and X4 M.

An all new BMW X5 is also on fast track but first a slight LCI is imminent for the F15.
And then the Premium market will receive its first luxury SUV from BMW.
The BMW X7. A vehicle that can be configured to accommodate seven in absolute practicality or four in absolute luxury. Two wheelbases allows X7 to be the 7er of SUVs and is the first of its kind from a German manufacturer.

But of the regular portfolio. There is a new 5er imminent, the 2er Sedan built in China for China at first. The first of its kind built and developed especially for one market. Offering BMW attributes in a compact and affordable compact body.
LCIs for the BMW 3er Gran Turismo and the BMW 2er and 4er.
The Extremely powerful and dynamic BMW M760Li and 740e iPerformance.
Europe will receive a new 750d.
An all new 5er Gran Turismo continuing its success of first class luxury but within a more dynamic and sleeker body.

The first of joint BMW-Toyota partnership brings forth the all new Z5 Roadster to be followed by a Coupe. Z5 will be extremely advanced and light for its class its material count will shame certain high end sports cars.
It will also be unique by offering specialised engines with power updates exclusive to this car only. This will be further highlighted by an all new Z5 M. Currently being tested.

The G30 5er begins the complete renewal of the rest of the BMW portfolio including the X3,3er,1er and 6er models first.
Then there is the latest progression for BMWi starting with the i3 this Summer and then the BMW i8 introducing the i8S and BMW i8 Roadster.

The further legislation to lower C02 limits in the EU and other markets will continue with more sustainable drivetrains and models reflecting the entry,luxury and high performance segments.

And then there is the additional brands of MINI and Rolls-Royce.
MINI will introduce an all new Countryman this Summer and will be joined by a sportier PACEMAN replacement aligned with the BMW X2 but this time featuring 5drs. An additional new MINI is coming to take advantage of a growing entry market and again part of a partnership. The current MINI will receive a "chin lift" to better integrate the air intakes like the new MINI Clubman.
And for the third time there will be a new MINI JCW GP which to those that have seen the strategy for it advise it has a similar aesthetic in lightweight materials to a BMW M4 GTS.

And with RR introducing its all new Aluminium space frame and architecture for its next generation of motor cars for the luxury plus segment. Starting with the new Phantom that will be the Worlds most advanced luxury car. Its engineering advises of a very exciting future for BMW.
And then the first RR "SUV" will arrive on the market.

The crowning achievement for BMW will showcase an entirely new direction and philosophy with two new vehicle BMWi NEXT and the 9er flagship.
The 9er will focus on assisted drivetrains as its main choice of power. But will reflect its status to deliver exceptional dynamics, refinement and Performance.
There has not been a more direct attempt to tap into the sporting side of the luxury plus segment which is where the 9er aims to accomplish.


Retaining a successful profit margin for the Luxury/Luxury + Segment. (BMW)

X7 (incl. V12 /MPerformance version)
7er inc. V12 MPerformance/iPerformance/Li
i8 Roadster (incl. iPerformance S version)
Z5 Joint BMW-Toyota Sports Car) (incl. M version)
9er Luxury Sports Sedan (incl MPerformance version)

Retaining a successful profit margin for the Luxury/Luxury + Segment. (Rolls-Royce)
Wraith/Dawn
Ghost/Ghost EWB
Phantom/ Phantom EWB
Cullinan
Roadster


It is easy to write BMW off but challenges tomorrow are greater than today in some cases.
But the future is well in hand. Its all about accepting the challenge and accomplishing it, sometimes with an entire new philosophy or a different direction.
There are more challenges to meet , accept and solve. Volume is not everything now as VAG has learned to their cost. Achieving profitability whilst meeting ever changing legislative targets is one direction BMW are focused on as well as the further issues that forever progress within research and development.
Boy you are in your element right now Mr. Marketer. I am sorry to tell you that you aren't the iphone of cars anymore. You thought you are ahead of the curve with the i series yet you see people lining up on someone else's door.
Exactly. BMW and BMW i right now is a disaster. This ego will not get BMW anymore, this is how companies slowly but surely go down. Scott, I think your/BMWs assumptions are extremely wrong at the moment. Sometimes in life you need to take a step back , and listen to what your customers want.

BMW has normal American companies like ford/chevy(mustangs and camaros) that are equally as good or better then our top m cars, which cost a lot less as well!

Tesla is a pioneer and a serious competitor for all cars. If this model 3 is more to drive I would get it over the 3/4 series any day. We know it'll be faster, way more efficient, more advanced and probably even nicer(subjective). The way BMW is going the next generation 3/4 won't be much better or different than the current. Things have become predictable.
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      04-02-2016, 04:24 PM   #83
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I will also add, when I was looking for a 4 door vehicle my first thought was the 6 gc. Yes it's more expensive then the cls and a7, but I didn't care because I was in love with the way it looks. I didn't even go and test drive the other 2 cars. This is how BMW was for me, I never even considered anything else.

Please bring this back.
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      04-02-2016, 04:50 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
Scott you are kinda killing us here. I think many of the enthusiasts on this site love bmw for the sporty sedans and coupes they make, not the SUVs. So while SUVs may be the solution, they are not the SOULution.
Not but that is the choice of the market and the consumer and North America is driving the point as justified that with nearly every manufacture a high percentage rise in the SUV/Crossover segments, decline in others.
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      04-02-2016, 04:52 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by 1cleanm3 View Post
Exactly. BMW and BMW i right now is a disaster. This ego will not get BMW anymore, this is how companies slowly but surely go down. Scott, I think your/BMWs assumptions are extremely wrong at the moment. Sometimes in life you need to take a step back , and listen to what your customers want.

BMW has normal American companies like ford/chevy(mustangs and camaros) that are equally as good or better then our top m cars, which cost a lot less as well!

Tesla is a pioneer and a serious competitor for all cars. If this model 3 is more to drive I would get it over the 3/4 series any day. We know it'll be faster, way more efficient, more advanced and probably even nicer(subjective). The way BMW is going the next generation 3/4 won't be much better or different than the current. Things have become predictable.
That is your opinion.
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      04-02-2016, 05:05 PM   #86
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All the hate is funny. The truth is these are the most "real" numbers BMW have posted in over a year. So, on top of a general downturn in the market and new models from main Competitors, BMW is probably closer to 4% down, if they were counting strictly customer retailed vehicles. Tesla is not a threat. Their quality control (or lack thereof) is finally coming to light. While I agree on the changing maintenance issue, that has nothing to do with these numbers.
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      04-02-2016, 05:11 PM   #87
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Boy you are in your element right now Mr. Marketer. I am sorry to tell you that you aren't the iphone of cars anymore. You thought you are ahead of the curve with the i series yet you see people lining up on someone else's door.
BMWi and Tesla do not compete.
They might semi-compete because of their drivetrain. But in overall concept they do not. Its a familiar concept the US media fail to grasp.
They will eventually when we arrive with similar concepts but that won't be for a while. I would expect that Model 3 has in fact changed concept to reflect the US desire for SUV/Crossovers. Because that is what the Model 3 is,a Crossover.

It is not a Sport Sedan like the 3er if we want to directly compare concepts (not drivetrains) then the Model 3 would be a direct competitor for the BMW 3er Gran Turismo.

Hopefully when we progress through the build-up we will get to learn on how Model 3 when Teased a couple of years back looked like a smaller Model S and now on its journey to production it is now a Crossover.
Has the market brought this decisive change?

In regards to BMW doing nothing.?
The company has developed Power eDrive which will be available in three different levels from entry to high performance.
We will even feature this on M cars which we will shortly see soon enough.
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      04-02-2016, 05:33 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
That is your opinion.
I don't know. As a shareholder I am not that optimistic. BMW is down 10.7% in sales YTD compared to 2015. The only automaker of significance that fared worse this year in the US is Mazda at 17%. Even VW with its scandal and lack of SUVs in the lineup is only down 7%. These days when I talk to coworkers and friends, the brand seems to be more associated with numb, under-damped cars or bad headlights, than the driver-focus. I think the i8 is a great effort, but it isn't something that is in reach of your core audience. Tesla being able to gather nearly 200000 deposits within 24 hours is pretty significant signal of what the market wants.
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