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      12-03-2019, 05:38 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by DonaldPump View Post
Yup, the cattle here will gladly vote for anyone that says "free" the most.

How far we have fallen.
The one that says free or freedom the most?
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      12-03-2019, 05:46 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Moonbat View Post
Labels, especially when misused on all sides, just create more misunderstanding and division.

The following article does a reasonable job defining socialism vs. what some politicians are using to self describe themselves as "democratic socialists".

https://www.businessinsider.com/diff...cialist-2018-6

I don't know any pure socialists or supporters of pure socialism with centralized control over all industries. But I know a lot of left leaning folks who think unbridled or unregulated capitalism can sometimes lead to a threat to our democracy. Beyond a certain point, inequality tends to lead to cycles of increasing greed and political corruption... with the health care industry in the USA becoming a case in point. I agree with previous posts in this thread. It's not the fault of the vast majority of patients, nor physicians, but the layers of health insurance between the two.

Many of the symptoms the left leaning rail against could be solved by reintroducing enough regulation to increase market competition. Medicare for All may not be required to get health care costs and outcomes in line with the rest of the industrialized world's numbers. But we have to have sufficient government regulation at all levels to stop the current level of merger fever, and we need incentives at this point to, for example, get doctor's groups to start forming independent payment processes that get patient and physician closer, without a dozen layers of health insurance professionals between the two. There have been a few experiments in rural areas that look promising, but frequently politicians, bought out by industry, end up trying to shut down such experiments with lawsuits. Just like they did when a few small municipalities tried to offer cheap broadband to residents. In comes the ISP industry suing over unfair competition, and getting state or federal politicians to defend their obscene profit margins.

I admire AOC, Bernie, and similar politicians, but would never label any as true "socialists" or even close to any moderate "democratic socialists" like Salvador Allende back in the early 70s. Today's left in the USA is more like a throwback to FDR, with plans for government regulation and incentives to bring up the poor and lower middle class... admittedly at the expense of the top 1-5%. Most economists I've read say that's a better way to grow an economy than relying solely on trickle down and the austerity doctrines of a Thatcher or Reagan administration.
I disagree with that meaning socialism in the centralization of of anything to the public domain
The public domain does not mean government it can be a collective union, a non private company, or a multinational corporation that has is own collectively via state mandate or stocks.
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      12-03-2019, 05:51 PM   #47
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There is no guarantee that you will be happy, or even that you will accomplish the same as I. You should do better.
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      12-03-2019, 09:54 PM   #48
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Socialism can only work if it is balanced out by capitalism. Just like anything else in the real world, logically it's not possible for everybody to be takers, unless there are givers to balance out. It's a matter of mathematics.

If a corporation that has more takers than givers, it will eventually fail regardless of the politics. Just like if a family spends more than it takes in, eventually somebody has to declare bankruptcy.
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      12-04-2019, 08:42 AM   #49
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Speaking of socialism:

...So far, Trump's direct payments to farmers hurt by his trade dispute with China have totaled some $28 billion more than twice what the auto bailout cost...
(emphasis mine)

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...fs/2418676001/
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      12-04-2019, 09:00 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Speaking of socialism:

...So far, Trump's direct payments to farmers hurt by his trade dispute with China have totaled some $28 billion more than twice what the auto bailout cost...
(emphasis mine)

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...fs/2418676001/
That's disgusting. Ag subsidies have far outlived their usefulness. Especially given that a large number of "farmers" have addresses that overlook Central Park.
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      12-04-2019, 09:20 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
To be precise, it's a Postmodern argument. Everything is a social construct, including gender/sex. The binary male-female gender model was constructed for the benefit and empowerment of those who identify as the male or female gender they were assigned at birth (the cisnormative)...so the theory goes.
So it has nothing to do with socialism. I don't know if its a postmodern argument (that depends on what values you hold true) but it is a post or non-conservative argument (as in theological-conservative)
And you take the assumption that there are only 2 genders at birth (or better said: 2 sexes). This is not true.
About 1 in 1000 has either a viable genetic disorder (like XXY aka Klinefelter) or a hormonal disorder that has an intersex result.
Where I come from we already learn this in highschool at biology (even when I was there back in the 80's) so the general view here is maybe not so conservative as in other countries.

Forcing such people into a cis gender legal construction against their will is imho cruel. A lot of these people wrestle with the fact that they sometimes can't even place themselves, so my view is let them be whatever they want to be. Thats none of anyone else's business if you ask me.
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Last edited by GuidoK; 12-04-2019 at 09:37 AM..
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      12-04-2019, 09:48 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
And you take the assumption that there are only 2 genders at birth (or better said: 2 sexes). This is not true.
About 1 in 1000 has either a viable genetic disorder (like XXY) or a hormonal disorder that has an intersex result.
Accidental anomalous mutations which can't (or don't) replicate themselves, thus persisting in the genetic code, don't constitute new forms of a species.

There are babies born every day with some number of fingers other than 10, but when you ask anyone - a Physiology PhD or a toddler - how many fingers a human has, they answer "10" without any hesitation or qualification. Because having 10 fingers is an essential trait of a human (actually, an ape). Not 12 fingers, nor 7 fingers, nor an unknowable or arbitrary number of fingers. Exactly 10. And so it goes for sex. A human has a sex, and it's either male or female. The biological evidence is unambiguous and abundant.
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      12-04-2019, 09:48 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
I hope you're right, the steady march to the left in western democracies is alarming. I'm hoping the pendulum swings the other way soon as a lot of folks are growing sick of all of this progressive nonsense.
I don't think there is a steady march to the left in western democraties.
Maybe in the US (or NA) there is, but you have a 2 party democraty (more or less at least, in practice there's always 1 party at power in a certain segment, never a coalition) but in the rest of the western world its quite the opposite..
By far in most western democraties the government always is made up of a coalition of different parties. And especially on the centrum right side there has been a big divide up and birth of new right winged parties in virtually every country. I'm talking about the timespan of about the last 2 decades.
Right winged politics in western democraties have never been this strong and spread out (so lots to choose from) as today.
In the 60's-90's that was a complete different story. Of course there was firm militairy cooperation with the US because of the red curtain but inland politics was much more left focussed back then as it is now in the majority of western democraties.
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      12-04-2019, 09:49 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
So it has nothing to do with socialism. I don't know if its a postmodern argument (that depends on what values you hold true) but it is a post or non-conservative argument (as in theological-conservative)
And you take the assumption that there are only 2 genders at birth (or better said: 2 sexes). This is not true.
About 1 in 1000 has either a viable genetic disorder (like XXY aka Klinefelter) or a hormonal disorder that has an intersex result.

Where I come from we already learn this in highschool at biology (even when I was there back in the 80's) so the general view here is maybe not so conservative as in other countries.

Forcing such people into a cis gender legal construction against their will is imho cruel. A lot of these people wrestle with the fact that they sometimes can't even place themselves, so my view is let them be whatever they want to be. Thats none of anyone else's business if you ask me.
So your using a rare mutation which is generally debilitating to justify people who are health males and females pretending to be the opposite sex and mutating there bodies and also having unfair competitive advantage in sports events. Got it.

(Furthermore no one ever talks about the end result of the poster child of fluid gender and how the guy killed himself in the end)

Last edited by NormanConquest; 12-04-2019 at 10:06 AM..
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      12-04-2019, 09:56 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
Socialism can only work if it is balanced out by capitalism. Just like anything else in the real world, logically it's not possible for everybody to be takers, unless there are givers to balance out. It's a matter of mathematics.

If a corporation that has more takers than givers, it will eventually fail regardless of the politics. Just like if a family spends more than it takes in, eventually somebody has to declare bankruptcy.
I would say the same for capitalism. Neither can exist in their "pure" form for long and need each other to develop and sustain and balanced society.
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      12-04-2019, 10:05 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I would say the same for capitalism. Neither can exist in their "pure" form for long and need each other to develop and sustain and balanced society.
Agree. The potential "fail condition" of capitalism is inequity which reaches an intolerable level. Case in point: the US era of the Robber Barons. The corresponding condition in socialism is the quashing of creativity and enterprise, to a degree that produces a profound general malaise and apathy.
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      12-04-2019, 10:09 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
A human has a sex, and it's either male or female. The biological evidence is unambiguous and abundant.
No its not. There are dozens of medical variations inbetween.
This is the view of doctors. They dont have the backwards hick view that it has to be either the one or the other. Thats a conservative politicians view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
So your using a rare mutation which is generally debilitating to justify people who are health males and females pretending to be the opposite sex and mutating there bodies and also having unfair competitive advantage in sports events. Got it.
So you're using the cheating in sports that somehow cant be prevented by changing rules to force people with medical conditions that usually make them extremely unhappy and uncertain about their condition or appearance legally into a predetermined legal box that they dont feel comfortable with.
Got it.

and I thought the USA was supposed to be the land of the free....
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      12-04-2019, 10:15 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
Agree. The potential "fail condition" of capitalism is inequity which reaches an intolerable level. Case in point: the US era of the Robber Barons. The corresponding condition in socialism is the quashing of creativity and enterprise, to a degree that produces a profound general malaise and apathy.
Agreed, I also think capitalism can quash creativity etc when companies have merged into giants/monopolies and control the markets/politicians. This can shut down free enterprise and the innovation etc that comes from that.

My main point is almost any political structure in their purest forms are not good for the majority of society. Both socialism and capitalism at their extreme ends have a small percentage of extremely rich people that control everything at the top with the rest being a poor powerless majority. When the inequity becomes too big, as has been shown in history numerous times people start killing each other to bring some balance back.
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      12-04-2019, 10:21 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I don't think there is a steady march to the left in western democraties.
Maybe in the US (or NA) there is, but you have a 2 party democraty (more or less at least, in practice there's always 1 party at power in a certain segment, never a coalition) but in the rest of the western world its quite the opposite..
By far in most western democraties the government always is made up of a coalition of different parties. And especially on the centrum right side there has been a big divide up and birth of new right winged parties in virtually every country. I'm talking about the timespan of about the last 2 decades.
Right winged politics in western democraties have never been this strong and spread out (so lots to choose from) as today.
In the 60's-90's that was a complete different story. Of course there was firm militairy cooperation with the US because of the red curtain but inland politics was much more left focussed back then as it is now in the majority of western democraties.
I guess we disagree, in Canada the liberal party was always considered middle of the spectrum, the NDP were left and the conservatives were on the right. The NDP is full socialist now, the liberal are leaning into socialist territory and the conservatives are centre left. The push is constantly for more social programs, more "free stuff" such as education, pharmacare etc. We see the same in the US, Bernie pushes for free everything, capitalism is bad according to many on the left. JFK the great democrat would be considered a republican now based on his policies. The same can be said for what's happening in Europe, anything right leaning is called extreme or worse, when really it's about less government and fiscal conservatism. As taxes continue to rise that money goes to support social programs and service debt that has been accumulated to fund those problems.

Taxes have steadily gone up over the decades.
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      12-04-2019, 10:21 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Agreed, I also think capitalism can quash creativity etc when companies have merged into giants/monopolies and control the markets/politicians. This can shut down free enterprise and the innovation etc that comes from that.

My main point is almost any political structure in their purest forms are not good for the majority of society. Both socialism and capitalism at their extreme ends have a small percentage of extremely rich people that control everything at the top with the rest being a poor powerless majority. When the inequity becomes too big, as has been shown in history numerous times people start killing each other to bring some balance back.
Modern crony capitalists have managed to gain the advantages of both systems simultaneously. They're purely capitalist when things are going great (Apple stashing hundreds of billions offshore to avoid taxes) and socialist when there are shortfalls (taxpayer bailouts of the big US financial and auto industries). It's revolting...perhaps literally.
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      12-04-2019, 10:23 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
Modern crony capitalists have managed to gain the advantages of both systems simultaneously. They're purely capitalist when things are going great (Apple stashing hundreds of billions offshore to avoid taxes) and socialist when there are shortfalls (taxpayer bailouts of the big US financial and auto industries). It's revolting...perhaps literally.
Very much agreed. The 08 financial collapse is a great example of the above.
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      12-04-2019, 10:26 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Very much agreed. The 08 financial collapse is a great example of the above.
Add to that corporate "personhood" which is an affront to the very notion of democracy.
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      12-04-2019, 10:32 AM   #63
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Quote:
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I guess we disagree, in Canada
I wasn't talking about NA, but the majority of the rest of the western world democraties, so mainly europe (and I guess some south american countries considered western democraties as well)
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      12-04-2019, 11:42 AM   #64
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Our beloved(...) capital...



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      12-04-2019, 11:53 AM   #65
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Our beloved(...) capital...



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      12-04-2019, 11:59 AM   #66
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Fake News
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Also fake news, our neighbours.




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