[N & M]

Although the M2 was receiving praise, I was surprised that the GTS was not getting the rave reviews that all expected to get.

For the M2 to be 5th of 10 in the company of super cars is praise worthy but to have the GTS down in last place is strange.

Everyone cries out for more attitude and rawness in M cars but they expect them to be easy to handle and drive on the limit. That balance was better met in the M2 according to many in the press.

[N & M]

[QUOTE=Troll_991GT3;20732885]The M3/M4/GTS are all great cars for what they are and how they drive. Show me a similar car in it's class. They don't stand a chance. It's been always like that and hopefully will although IMHO BMW has lost it's track a bit.

What I don't understand is BMW's complex of being slower and less capable car than 911. Maybe it is not BMW but all the journalists expecting BMW M outperform Porsche. It is not going to happen as they always have been different cars.

You do raise some good points there but let's have a thought about a few critical issues often brought up in these type of comparisons. One is brakes where BMW (not counting expensive ceramics) have struggled with on its fast cars. The other, since the Turbo era, is traction.

This is gotten better with M2 but is still behind Porsche even when you consider weight and drivetrain layout advantages. On cars like the normal Ms you can expect compromise but ultimate cars like the GTS, there can be no excuses.

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by N & M

Everyone cries out for more attitude and rawness in M cars but they expect them to be easy to handle and drive on the limit. That balance was better met in the M2 according to many in the press.

The failure of GTS proves once again this point: you don't just make a great car by stripping it.

Strip a civic and swap anything you want - engine, suspension, brake/wheel/tire, CF bits and even transmission, it's not going to be something else. A quicker civic if anything.

Something inherent doesn't change - PLATFORM, that dictates where engine's mounted, how torque is delivered down the ground and how gravity of each component is moved during acceleration, brake & cornering.

In GTS's case, it's a F30 rooted stripper, with an equally long wheel base and an even heavier engine at the front than a pedestrian F30 4 pot. BMW does all they want trying to fool you into thinking it's turned into something it's not and let it compete with things leagues above that it shouldn't at all just because of the price point they want to put it at. In the meanwhile BMW asks more compromises than most of supercar makers would in the market today for a day to day driver - things unfold, it delivers much less in terms of performance.

With all those in mind, look at it from MT Best Driver's Car 2016 with its retarded looking and "just don't know how to fix it" wing, standing next to the stunning Viper, which is absolutely every bits as quick as if not far quicker than it looks, anywhere. Imagine you're the owner of GTS and tell me all the compromises are worth it and you don't want to rip that wing off your car and go home.

Typical epic failure.

[Advevo]

Get an m2

Carbon hood
Carbon roof
Carbon rear deck csl style.
Gts race seats
Alcantara steering wheel


No kw suspension orginal maybe some sportier setting.

I don t need more horsepower. Lightweight and the smallest bmw M car.

Big lumpy cars is no fun on tracks the m3/m4 has become a nice fast family car just like the M5.

[ilovewagons]

Originally Posted by Troll_991GT3

The M3/M4/GTS are all great cars for what they are and how they drive. Show me a similar car in it's class. They don't stand a chance. It's been always like that and hopefully will although IMHO BMW has lost it's track a bit.

Ford GT350, Camaro SS 1LE, Cadillac ATS-V. The Ford in particular would be my choice over any F80/82. The F80/82 are a triumph of numbers over experience. It's not surprising that the M2, being a triumph of experience over numbers, is so well received. The market niche is way too crowded for BMW to get away with such an uninspiring effort.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by bimmermaus650

I absolutely love the Giulia

#1

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Troll_991GT3

Agreed but GTS is still the same architecture as regular 3 series.
That means size and weight which in turn is very hard to offset with power, aero and electronic tweaks.
Heavy car won't be a sports car. Porsche is already struggling at weights over 1400kgs which is a lot.

There is not much room to improve M4. Suspension? Ok, you can make it faster around NB but on streets it will be a dog.
Power? Add a bit but that makes no difference on regular tracks of 4kms and you add traction problems. Besides the gain could be easily obtained without water injection.
Grip? Yes. Bigger tires, semi slicks. You could add some aero but if you know formula for a downforce (or lift) you would know that at speeds these car take on again regular tracks that is very little force. Check that manufactures often give downforce at max speed. And that force goes with square of speed.

But the sum of all above mentioned ingredients make this car halo car. Not much faster nor lighter. People still buy it and it is cool.

AWD. It's coming to a M-car near you.

[///M-pressed]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

The failure of GTS proves once again this point: you don't just make a great car by stripping any car.

Strip a civic and swap anything you want - engine, suspension, brake/wheel/tire, CF bits and even transmission, it's not going to be something else. A quicker civic if anything.

Something inherent doesn't change - PLATFORM, that dictates where engine's mounted, how torque is delivered down the ground and how gravity of each component is moved during acceleration, brake & cornering.

In GTS's case, it's a F30 rooted stripper, with an equally long wheel base and an even heavier engine at the front than a pedestrian F30 4 pot does. BMW does all they want trying to fool you into thinking it's turned into something it's not and let it compete with things leagues above that it shouldn't at all just because of the price point they want to put it at. In the meanwhile BMW asks more compromises than most of supercar makers would in the market today for a day to day driver - things unfold, it delivers much less in terms of performance.

With all those in mind, look at it from MT Best Driver's Car 2016 with its retarded looking and "just don't know how to fix it" wing, standing next to the stunning Viper, which is absolutely every bits as quick as if not far quicker than it looks, anywhere. Imagine you're the owner of GTS and tell me all the compromises are worth it and you don't want to rip that wing off your car and go home.

Typical epic failure.

Bingo. This is why to me Porsches are cut above. They're designed from the get go as an out and out sports car, not a chassis/body that is generic across so many different models. The body of an M4 GTS is found on a 420D. Not to say the M2 is any different, but my personal opinion is even if the M4 GTS is an amazing car to drive, for that price point I'd be looking at a Porsche.

Love BMWs, but have to also be realistic.

[Fahrvergnügen]

Originally Posted by Osiris

I hope it will at least in USA since its first one we get here. But I am still rather surprised at the reviews. The people on the forum who got theirs seem impressed. Maybe they can shed some more light on this discrepancy.

Hopefully VCP M4 GTS Bokke redrumm3 and Captain Unknown GT4 can shed some light?

[Raikkonen]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

People just can't admit that the GTS/F8X M just isn't better than the rest of the competition.

Agreed...

Or that even in its own right, it's not that "great" (subjective, I know).

About two weeks ago, I drove a co-workers Fiesta ST, expecting it to be a plastic garbage can, and I swear to God I had more fun driving that car 10 miles than I've had driving 4k miles in my M3...

Flame me all you want, but there's so much GOOD competition now, even from domestic manufacturers, that these cars aren't as dominant as they once were.

[Crimson92]

Originally Posted by Raikkonen

Agreed...

Or that even in its own right, it's not that "great" (subjective, I know).

About two weeks ago, I drove a co-workers Fiesta ST, expecting it to be a plastic garbage can, and I swear to God I had more fun driving that car 10 miles than I've had driving 4k miles in my M3...

Flame me all you want, but there's so much GOOD competition now, even from domestic manufacturers, that these cars aren't as dominant as they once were.

I know what you mean.

I drove a Miata on a track last week and the most fun I've had in a while.

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by Raikkonen

Agreed...

Or that even in its own right, it's not that "great" (subjective, I know).

About two weeks ago, I drove a co-workers Fiesta ST, expecting it to be a plastic garbage can, and I swear to God I had more fun driving that car 10 miles than I've had driving 4k miles in my M3...

Flame me all you want, but there's so much GOOD competition now, even from domestic manufacturers, that these cars aren't as dominant as they once were.

You can't be flamed when you own an M3, the car you're basically flaming yourself.

[DivideBYZero]

Originally Posted by Raikkonen

Agreed...

Or that even in its own right, it's not that "great" (subjective, I know).

About two weeks ago, I drove a co-workers Fiesta ST, expecting it to be a plastic garbage can, and I swear to God I had more fun driving that car 10 miles than I've had driving 4k miles in my M3...

Flame me all you want, but there's so much GOOD competition now, even from domestic manufacturers, that these cars aren't as dominant as they once were.

There is a lot of quick, affordable metal out there today. No flames from me. It just means that, hopefully, the M2 is the start of a rebirth of M, where they address the fattening and luxe model direction and focus again.

[Benzima]

Very happy the M2 made it on that "very" elite list of cars!

[Raikkonen]

Yes, I believe the M2 is the sweet spot.

Fast, well-built, nimble, smaller scale, everyday usable, etc., etc.

It would be even more "perfect" if it lost just a few lbs./kg's...

All around an amazing car!

[IS+1]

Originally Posted by Raikkonen

Flame me all you want, but there's so much GOOD competition now, even from domestic manufacturers, that these cars aren't as dominant as they once were.

I completely agree.

5 years ago I would not have even looked twice at an American performance car. Fast forward to today, and in terms of performance per dollar, cars like the Corvette Grand Sport, Camaro SS 1LE and GT350R would mop the floor with the M4 GTS, and then some.

As much as some of us look upon domestics with disdain, you have to give credit where credit is due.

[Raikkonen]

Agreed x3

I'm still in the German "camp" as far as build quality, design, materials used, fit and finish, etc., but my God the gap is closing quickly; more so then ever before.

And when everything soon becomes all-electric, the only gap will be build quality, design etc., as performance will all but become irrelevant, as every performance/sports car will be as fast as every other one of its competitors.

[BarryB]

Originally Posted by Fahrvergnügen

Hopefully VCP M4 GTS Bokke redrumm3 and Captain Unknown GT4 can shed some light?

Maybe you can bait them again and turn this into another ridiculous 12 page thread ( on my phone) .......lol
But hope not.

[440xiGCMsport]

I think the guys buying the m4 gts just about buy anything they want but what they are looking at is exclusivity. Sure they can just go out and buy a better driving 911 but so can anyone else. Not to mention a 911 will depreciate a lot more than m4 gts. BMW knows this and is just catering to this market for profitability. BMW was never about making the ultimate race car. BMW is about making the ultimate daily driver while porsche is about adapting the ultimate race car to become a good daily driver. Difference in philosophies here.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

People just can't admit that the GTS/F8X M just isn't better than the rest of the competition.

I totally agree. Although I own an F82, I can easily say that BMW is not ahead of the game anymore. I'm really curious about the next generation M3/M4. We'll see how BMW will respond...

[vladberca]

American cars are better and better in terms of performance but the interior quality, layout and nav interface are still way behind. This is the reason for the high price differences.
As the cars are not used only on tracks this an important aspect.
Too bad we haven't seen an European comparative between M4 GTS and GT 350R.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by vladberca

American cars are better and better in terms of performance but the interior quality, layout and nav interface are still way behind. This is the reason for the high price differences.
As the cars are not used only on tracks this an important aspect.
Too bad we haven't seen an European comparative between M4 GTS and GT 350R.

True on the interior quality and feel. But it is a sad time when //M's only strength over competition are those qualities.