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M2 Technical Topics > S55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > S55 Upgraded Crank Hub - Is there any reason left to worry?

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      09-20-2019, 01:51 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
This car has plenty of power stock. Enjoy the car and warranty, just drive.
Agree, tune it once your warranty is up.
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      09-20-2019, 07:08 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by waldrops View Post
yes, I read about one with only a cbc and it has failed.
Do you have a link to that please?
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      09-20-2019, 07:14 AM   #25
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by waldrops View Post
yes, I read about one with only a cbc and it has failed.
Do you have a link to that please?
So far there hasn't been one S55 on this forum with CBC that has failed.

But CBC alone won't help if you already had a failure from what I gather.
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      09-20-2019, 01:08 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeDarko View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldrops View Post
yes, I read about one with only a cbc and it has failed.
Do you have a link to that please?
So far there hasn't been one S55 on this forum with CBC that has failed.

But CBC alone won't help if you already had a failure from what I gather.
Is there a tell tale sign that you have had a slippage? Is it obvious or throws any errors?
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      09-20-2019, 02:23 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxified View Post
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Originally Posted by FreeDarko View Post
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Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldrops View Post
yes, I read about one with only a cbc and it has failed.
Do you have a link to that please?
So far there hasn't been one S55 on this forum with CBC that has failed.

But CBC alone won't help if you already had a failure from what I gather.
Is there a tell tale sign that you have had a slippage? Is it obvious or throws any errors?
When it goes you will go into limp mode at best to save the engine. Prior to that I'm not sure how you can tell.
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      09-20-2019, 05:56 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Detoxified View Post
Is there a tell tale sign that you have had a slippage? Is it obvious or throws any errors?
Of you're lucky the crank position sensor will catch the hub slip and send the car into limp mode (resulting in the drive train warning) before a catastrophic failure occurs.

If not then the motor will just get trashed and you'll likely stall out at worst case scenario, at best case it'll just be the pistons hitting the valves requiring those to be replaced.

A good idea is to get the CBC or check the torque specs of the crank bolt once in awhile to see if it's coming loose over time.
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      09-20-2019, 05:56 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
This car has plenty of power stock. Enjoy the car and warranty, just drive.
If only it were that easy.

Some people made the jump from the N55(even tuned) to the S55 for that jump in power...and still want more.

Most of the M2c threads are either about highly priced pipes making the car sound better or what options are currently out there for tunes.

It just never ends with some people:
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      09-21-2019, 09:56 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GerardzM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
This car has plenty of power stock. Enjoy the car and warranty, just drive.
If only it were that easy.

Some people made the jump from the N55(even tuned) to the S55 for that jump in power...and still want more.

Most of the M2c threads are either about highly priced pipes making the car sound better or what options are currently out there for tunes.

It just never ends with some people:
This is unfortunately true and if you live in an area where you could utilize more power then I can see the attraction and desire.

Also after a while our brain adapts to the increase and it becomes the norm so more is needed to get the same sensation.

As for me I went through this rabbit hole on the m3 (base, CS, stage 1) and started recognizing how I'm constantly riding the brakes as often as the accelerator after going to stage 1. More importantly the spikes in the torque curve prevented the ability to make prompt changes with just the accelerator and gears on spirited runs.

Went back down to CS tune and stuck with it till my brain adapted and the longing for power dissipated slowly.

Now after few weeks in the M2c I'm getting used to it being even less powerful than the CS tuned m3. But more importantly I'm loving the linear power to work through gears.

If someone made a tune that has the same power curve as the OEM M2c tune, I might consider it but in all honesty, for the most part I'm satisfied.
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      01-27-2021, 06:53 PM   #31
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2020 m2 competition, is crank hub failure a high probability ?

If your running stock hp/torque I.e. no upgrades/tuning etc, is the 2020 s55 engine prone to crank hub failure?
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      01-27-2021, 07:12 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Wolfblass View Post
If your running stock hp/torque I.e. no upgrades/tuning etc, is the 2020 s55 engine prone to crank hub failure?
Like it is not "prone to fail" but it "can fail". It also depends on how many down shifts you do and if you use the kick down feature on dct cars.


If I were you I wouldn't worry about failures because your warranty will take care of you, unless you are modded. You can start to worry after the warranty ends, at that point there are solutions you can get like pinned or splined hubs and crank bolt captures.
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      01-27-2021, 07:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Like it is not "prone to fail" but it "can fail". It also depends on how many down shifts you do and if you use the kick down feature on dct cars.


If I were you I wouldn't worry about failures because your warranty will take care of you, unless you are modded. You can start to worry after the warranty ends, at that point there are solutions you can get like pinned or splined hubs and crank bolt captures.

Ya so like any other car, luck of the draw on a lemon. What amazes me is how bmw hasn’t designed a permanent fix for this.
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      01-27-2021, 08:11 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Wolfblass View Post
Ya so like any other car, luck of the draw on a lemon. What amazes me is how bmw hasn’t designed a permanent fix for this.
Yeah I know how you feel, it's just like the sti with ring land failure, blown turbos, blown head gaskets, spun rods, rod knock etc. I mean the s55 isn't even close to a lemon engine, I've seen a cbc able to prevent a 700 whp engine from spinning a crank hub after repeat engine failures.

Imo the reason why they don't fix it is the same reason as subaru. This is because they likely realize that if they issue a new design then they'd have to recall all the other cars with the same hub design (n54, n55) for repairs, and it's likely going to cost them way more than it would to just repair and or replace any s55's that do spin the hub. So they're likely just going to drag it out until the s55 is discontinued, and warranty expires on all of them.
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      01-27-2021, 08:11 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Ya so like any other car, luck of the draw on a lemon. What amazes me is how bmw hasn’t designed a permanent fix for this.
They did. It is called the the S58. Just my attempt at being funny.
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      01-27-2021, 08:13 PM   #36
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They did. It is called the the S58. Just my attempt at being funny.
They did implement a bed plate fix, but it didn't seem to solve anything.

The s58 is indeed improved in terms of how the whole timing chain and hub assembly is done, but if you ever have a crank seal leak or timing chain needs to be done then have fun, because it's all in the back and the motor needs to be dropped.
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      01-29-2021, 02:15 PM   #37
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Crank hub thing is overblown, it was not a thing in F80/F82 world until the last few years. I didn't even know it was a problem with the S55 for 4 years of ownership of my F80 LOL.
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      01-30-2021, 11:41 AM   #38
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This was a 2019 post I sent:

Quote:



Happens to less than 1% of S55 engines, so it's really blown out of proportion. You can get an aftermarket fix if you are really that worried.
Any aftermarket fix in the warranty period will void it. Best not to tune it if your that worried until after the warranty has expired.

With everything I've read in the last 2 yrs almost all the spun hubs have not caused valve/piston contact. So its just a labor charge to get in there and replace the hub and re-align the new one.

Now if you money shift the car (6 spd) thats going to be expensive and has nothing to do with a spun hub.

So if less than 1% of the S55's are reporting spun hubs and and only a small portion of those have valve/piston contact..............I'm not worried about it.


Every couple months someone on these boards has to bring up the famed SCH. I think all these threads should be put up in the FAQ Section.

Stay stock-keep warranty
Tune car, lose warranty and don't install a CBC or more elaborate solution.
Tune, lose warranty and add a CBC ( lowest cost partial solution)
Tune, lose warranty and add a expensive modified Keyed Crank Hub.

The one failed CBC car was a 800HP F80/82 monster...I don't have time to find that thread right now

Most of you have a higher % chance of money shifting your 6 speeds vs a SCH...
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      01-30-2021, 12:30 PM   #39
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No offense, but I doubt you have any actual data to conclude it's less than 1%. Given the low M2C production numbers, the fact that there have been a few reports on this forum already, and the fact that not every owner posts here, it is not unreasonable to be a little concerned.
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      01-30-2021, 12:47 PM   #40
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None taken....

Roughly 1% x let say 10% have valve contact=0.10% chance.

2% x10%=0.20%

and so on...

That's what I was trying to state....
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      03-26-2021, 02:01 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAT TIME RULES View Post
This was a 2019 post I sent:

Quote:


[COLOR="Red"]
Happens to less than 1% of S55 engines, so it's really blown out of proportion. You can get an aftermarket fix if you are really that worried.
Any aftermarket fix in the warranty period will void it. Best not to tune it if your that worried until after the warranty has expired.

With everything I've read in the last 2 yrs almost all the spun hubs have not caused valve/piston contact. So its just a labor charge to get in there and replace the hub and re-align the new one.

Now if you money shift the car (6 spd) thats going to be expensive and has nothing to do with a spun hub.
I have not been to much in the forum but I read a lot regarding this, if the proportion of BMW damaged for the defective hub is so high as someone claims I am really sure that a sue to BMW would surface.

The IMS problem with the 996, Boxters, Caymans and 997.1 models (not GT or Turbos those have Mezger engine ended with a settlement. (IMS failure was around 5% if I reckon. You can check it out here http://www.imsporschesettlement.com/

Porsche also had and issues with the coolant hoses in the early Cayenne models. Coolant hoses were replaced for free if you complain about been charged you for an upgraded coolant hose that Porsche recommended.

If the Crank hub failure is so high for sure any lawyer would try to sue BMW

I read the same horror stories in the forums while I was owner of 2 STI, or with the S2000 and the 4th cylinder failure.

as STR said, if you are worried do not mod the car until the warranty is off
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      03-26-2021, 05:24 PM   #42
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Hmm, SPC happens when the bolt backs out enough over time that the bolt backs out and spins. Here’s a solution that doesn’t void your warranty or cost tons of money

With every oil change tq the crank bolt to spec.

Bingo! Problems solved just tighten the bolt my friends it’s honestly that easy

If you don’t wanna do that get the single large key crank hub precision dynamic offers. The 4 keyed if not drilled properly will fail. Precision has fixed quite a few already fixed crank hubs with the 4 keys and utilized their own with no failures

The problem with the 4 keyed failing is improper installation. If the drill isn’t perfect 100% straight your basically gonna fail and it’s only a matter of time.

Precision dynamics will mushroom inside the crank case allowing them to not have a perfectly drilled hole but will fit perfectly while other companies your relying on installation perfection and that’s not something to put your hopes on

Last edited by M2_MEDUSA; 03-26-2021 at 05:41 PM..
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      03-26-2021, 06:31 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87 View Post
Hmm, SPC happens when the bolt backs out enough over time that the bolt backs out and spins. Here’s a solution that doesn’t void your warranty or cost tons of money

With every oil change tq the crank bolt to spec.

Bingo! Problems solved just tighten the bolt my friends it’s honestly that easy

If you don’t wanna do that get the single large key crank hub precision dynamic offers. The 4 keyed if not drilled properly will fail. Precision has fixed quite a few already fixed crank hubs with the 4 keys and utilized their own with no failures

The problem with the 4 keyed failing is improper installation. If the drill isn’t perfect 100% straight your basically gonna fail and it’s only a matter of time.

Precision dynamics will mushroom inside the crank case allowing them to not have a perfectly drilled hole but will fit perfectly while other companies your relying on installation perfection and that’s not something to put your hopes on
It is not only just the bolt backing out over time, but in most cases the inertia from everything driven off of the crank hub exerting a counter clockwise torque during rpm increases (down shifts, heavy acceleration) over a short period of time (so expecially down shifts and kick down on dcts) that acts like an impact driver which over time can cause the friction disk to break loose. So it is not just the bolt loosening.

No do not touch that bolt under any circumstances without the proper timing lock tools, because you can do more harm than good. Also that crank hub bolt is a torque to yield bolt which is stretched once yielded. This has a few implications:
1) The BMW specified torque is not technically accurate because once it is yielded the torque values can increase a bit, so even if you were to torque it to the pre yielded values it might not be enough and it will seem tight when it could have loosened a bit. However if the bolt is still above the pre yielded torque spec it should be fine, but this is to say that it is pointless to keep checking that torque spec because you could end up doing more harm than good.

2) If it ever loosens enough to allow for more torque at the pre-yielded torque spec you cannot keep retorquing a stretched bolt because it will snap off. A torque to yield bolt is meant to be torqued and yielded ONCE so it is a terrible idea to keep touching it because you will weaken the bolt and cause it to fail.

Not to be rude, but do not touch the crank bolt that is the worse idea ever... BMW even states in their TIS not to touch that bolt without timing tools in place. Sure going in a tightening clock wise direction would not have a huge probability to cause timing to slip, but it is a bad idea to touch that bolt in general.



I have a few things to say about the precision dynamics hub:

1) There is literally nothing I could find about this hub on the forums, so I am skeptical to even use this item because of the lack of user feed back and testing data.

2) The way you have to drill the crank snout looks really sketchy and it also means there is no way back from this (in the even this hub is not good). Because after you drill this hub the key'ing method leaves a weird lop sided shape on the crank so you cannot go with an alternate solution like the SPLOCK or a stock hub because the missing material will cause an imbalance unlike a pinned hub which is symmetrical. Next you will not be able to switch over to the a pinned hub because of how much material this thing takes out, so a pinned designed won't work. This literally will cost you a new crank shaft if it goes wrong.

3) The design does look strong, but again the way the key is drilled looks difficult and if not drilled exactly to shape there will be areas of high stress due to low contact patch between the weird key shape and the hub snout. So this could be worse than a circular pin not better.



But if your shop cannot drill a perfectly straight hole with the alignment tools provided for a pinned hub then you probably shouldn't let you do this install because you are literally alerting your crank shaft.


Overall if you want to solve the loosening bolt issue get a CBC, if you want to get a crank hub solution I would personally wait out the precision dynamics option untill there is more testing, and go with a 4 pinned hub which is tried trued and proven, or get the VTT SPLOCK which is also pretty tested (rev.2 with the straight splines hasn't seen any failures yet iirc) and the easiest to install. Personally I think the best option is to have a hybrid design of splines (which are cut by a tool (and deeper than the VTT splines) to match the crank hub and not cut by the crank hub itself) and pins. Because splines are designed to handle torque so it is the best option if done right, and the pins would be for added safety just incase the crank material fails (which it shouldn't because it is insanely tough forged material) and just to really make it the best possible solution.
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Last edited by F87source; 03-26-2021 at 06:39 PM..
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      03-26-2021, 07:12 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87 View Post
Hmm, SPC happens when the bolt backs out enough over time that the bolt backs out and spins. Here’s a solution that doesn’t void your warranty or cost tons of money

With every oil change tq the crank bolt to spec.

Bingo! Problems solved just tighten the bolt my friends it’s honestly that easy

If you don’t wanna do that get the single large key crank hub precision dynamic offers. The 4 keyed if not drilled properly will fail. Precision has fixed quite a few already fixed crank hubs with the 4 keys and utilized their own with no failures

The problem with the 4 keyed failing is improper installation. If the drill isn’t perfect 100% straight your basically gonna fail and it’s only a matter of time.

Precision dynamics will mushroom inside the crank case allowing them to not have a perfectly drilled hole but will fit perfectly while other companies your relying on installation perfection and that’s not something to put your hopes on
This is pure speculation, it is most likely not as simple as the bolt backing out over time. Listen to F87source on this.
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