[///393]

Incredible. Congrats, I hope it stays healthy and you get to enjoy it for many miles.

Does it see any track time? Would love to see a video of a 3-4 pull.

[shaneguags]

700+ ?! that's insane !! how much PSI and full E85 ?

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

700+ ?! that's insane !! how much PSI and full E85 ?

Less than 28psi. Full pump e85, which typically measures anywhere between E80-E85 out here in California.

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

Less than 28psi. Full pump e85, which typically measures anywhere between E80-E85 out here in California.

my kill map for 660whp at 26 PSI and my flex fuel at 24 PSI

[F87source]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

Less than 28psi. Full pump e85, which typically measures anywhere between E80-E85 out here in California.

Great stuff so far man, love your build and how you are constantly pushing the n55 m2 platform forward!

BTW how are your temps on track? I have no idea how you keep it cooled with this much power.

Originally Posted by shaneguags

my kill map for 660whp at 26 PSI and my flex fuel at 24 PSI

It's volumetric efficency that is the difference maker between turbos, and how much air they can flow in their efficency range. Boost is not really the definitive factor about how much power a car can make. For example you can have a ps2 at 25 psi make far less power than your efr 7670 at the same boost, or an 8374 at lower boost.

I also like your build, keep it up!

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by F87source

Great stuff so far man, love your build and how you are constantly pushing the n55 m2 platform forward!

BTW how are your temps on track? I have no idea how you keep it cooled with this much power.

It's volumetric efficency that is the difference maker between turbos, and how much air they can flow in their efficency range. Boost is not really the definitive factor about how much power a car can make. For example you can have a ps2 at 25 psi make far less power than your efr 7670 at the same boost, or an 8374 at lower boost.

I also like your build, keep it up!

gotcha, would you say the 8474 is better than the 8374 ? I'm assuming so

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by F87source

Great stuff so far man, love your build and how you are constantly pushing the n55 m2 platform forward!

BTW how are your temps on track? I have no idea how you keep it cooled with this much power.

Thanks! I'm just glad that what I want is beneficial to others.

On the base map for this turbo w/ full E85 my IATs were about 15-20 degrees max above ambient running the entire session without cooldown laps on a fast track. I think this can be cleaned up even more. There's a lot of work on the calibration side regarding IAT compensations that is above my paygrade. The other part is hardware with the Wagner Evo 3, CSF radiator, and manifold/turbo/downpipe inconel shielding.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

Incredible. Congrats, I hope it stays healthy and you get to enjoy it for many miles.

Does it see any track time? Would love to see a video of a 3-4 pull.

It does at least once a month. The car is supposed to be a daily, track, and half mile car.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

gotcha, would you say the 8474 is better than the 8374 ? I'm assuming so

It isn't as simple as that. It really depends on your application, if your situation calls for more air flow then you want a larger turbo to remain in the efficency range. If your application doesn't require that much air flow then you want to go smaller so you get better response.

Ideally you want to pick the perfect size, not too big, but not too small. Because if your turbo is too large you will have an extremely laggy setup for no reason. But if your turbo is too small you will be running way too much duty cycle which is bad for the turbo and it generates excessive heat because you are too far out of the efficency range.

Originally Posted by -Eidos

Thanks! I'm just glad that what I want is beneficial to others.

On the base map for this turbo w/ full E85 my IATs were about 15-20 degrees max above ambient running the entire session without cooldown laps on a fast track. I think this can be cleaned up even more. There's a lot of work on the calibration side regarding IAT compensations that is above my paygrade. The other part is hardware with the Wagner Evo 3, CSF radiator, and manifold/turbo/downpipe inconel shielding.

What are your oil and coolant temps like? It is strange to see you not having heating issues, because alot of users with just an agressive tune on the stock turbo are having issues with coolant temps (im seeing above ~370 whp is when the n55 cooling setup starts to fail). Even those with upgraded turbos running a reasonable amount of power are having heating issues.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by F87source

What are your oil and coolant temps like? It is strange to see you not having heating issues, because alot of users with just an agressive tune on the stock turbo are having issues with coolant temps (im seeing above ~370 whp is when the n55 cooling setup starts to fail). Even those with upgraded turbos running a reasonable amount of power are having heating issues.

I should start logging those temps so I have no hard data on them right now. FWIW, my car has never thrown a code for those temps.

Just in general most aftermarket turbo set-ups are running off the stock restrictive manifold. There's a lot of backpressure there. And backpressure = heat. There's also the aspect of having a track-oriented tune. A low-powered tune =/= track-oriented tune, which people misconstrue. Then you have people actually tracking on aggressive lean tunes, which may give you one or two good laps. There's also being on full E85, which helps lower iats, in-cylinder temps, basically a lot to help mitigate detonation.

cookiesowns can chime in for more technical details, but there's a lot to be gained on a proper calibration alone. One of the cars he tuned is on a PS2 at 450WHP and holds the street registered record for any BMW on a road tire in Australia for time attack.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

I should start logging those temps so I have no hard data on them right now. FWIW, my car has never thrown a code for those temps.

Just in general most aftermarket turbo set-ups are running off the stock restrictive manifold. There's a lot of backpressure there. And backpressure = heat. There's also the aspect of having a track-oriented tune. A low-powered tune =/= track-oriented tune, which people misconstrue. Then you have people actually tracking on aggressive lean tunes, which may give you one or two good laps. There's also being on full E85, which helps lower iats, in-cylinder temps, basically a lot to help mitigate detonation.

cookiesowns can chime in for more technical details, but there's a lot to be gained on a proper calibration alone. One of the cars he tuned is on a PS2 at 450WHP and holds the street registered record for any BMW on a road tire in Australia for time attack.

The car won't throw codes for high coolant temps, it just pulls timing in a soft limp mode. Only if you really really over heat it will it throw codes and go full limp mode.


Interesting, I know about the tuning differences for a track vs. a street tune and all the specifics about timing and afrs. However the m2's and n55's limits is the physical size of the radiator - which is missing a massive portion off the bottom as bmw cut it short so the intercooler can tuck in underneath it. This is a physical limitation in how much thermal energy the radiator can shed off, and no tune or exhaust manifold can fix. Im sure with a better exhaust manifold, and a better tune you might be able to push into the 400 whp range, but likely not much. This is why the m235ir is limited to 270 whp.


Anyways I would be interested to see if you have logs the next time around, and maybe if cookiesowns has logs for the time attack car - that would be interesting.

[AmuroRay]

With as poor as the head flows on the N55 - it might just be easier to do the headwork and skip upgrading the turbo and fueling. Impressive results regardless.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

With as poor as the head flows on the N55 - it might just be easier to do the headwork and skip upgrading the turbo and fueling. Impressive results regardless.

I see that you're volunteering! Let's see it in action with the MILVs.

Another member has the 7670 on a fully built motor. When he goes max effort, we'll be able to see the gains from the built motor w/ the headwork.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

I see that you're volunteering! Let's see it in action with the MILVs.

Another member has the 7670 on a fully built motor. When he goes max effort, we'll be able to see the gains from the built motor w/ the headwork.

My tuner hasn't emailed me back with the file - I don't have social media so who knows what's going on.

But even with them, the head flow is just too poor to make a great use of the added lift. I think the intake currently flows less than 160CFM on the intake side.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by F87source

The car won't throw codes for high coolant temps, it just pulls timing in a soft limp mode. Only if you really really over heat it will it throw codes and go full limp mode.


Interesting, I know about the tuning differences for a track vs. a street tune and all the specifics about timing and afrs. However the m2's and n55's limits is the physical size of the radiator - which is missing a massive portion off the bottom as bmw cut it short so the intercooler can tuck in underneath it. This is a physical limitation in how much thermal energy the radiator can shed off, and no tune or exhaust manifold can fix. Im sure with a better exhaust manifold, and a better tune you might be able to push into the 400 whp range, but likely not much. This is why the m235ir is limited to 270 whp.


Anyways I would be interested to see if you have logs the next time around, and maybe if cookiesowns has logs for the time attack car - that would be interesting.

Don't forget about the cooling effects of full e85

I'm also running a mosselman thermostat which probably buys me several laps in a 20 minute HPDE session by reducing load on the coolant loop since it keeps oil temps down temporarily. All this to say, the car isn't definitely winning long endurance races currently at the high power level, but it's definitely fun for HPDE, as a daily, and on the airstrip 😁

Will definitely look to log more temp values in the future.

[///393]

Thanks for all that feedback on track temps.

Gives a fella hope that 420whp via a Dinan turbo, Dorch Stage 2, and Bend Cal tune can survive a 25min session running 100oct Sunoco.

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

Don't forget about the cooling effects of full e85

I'm also running a mosselman thermostat which probably buys me several laps in a 20 minute HPDE session by reducing load on the coolant loop since it keeps oil temps down temporarily. All this to say, the car isn't definitely winning long endurance races currently at the high power level, but it's definitely fun for HPDE, as a daily, and on the airstrip 😁

Will definitely look to log more temp values in the future.

what's ur take on the mosselman thermostat compared to the BMS oil cover valve spring. I have the BMS setup but been thinking about upgrading

[F87source]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

what's ur take on the mosselman thermostat compared to the BMS oil cover valve spring. I have the BMS setup but been thinking about upgrading

Then mosselmann upgrade is just a low temperature thermostat, the bms valve is a complete delete. So you will not see any temperature improvements going from the bms sport valve to the mosselman thermostat, instead you'll see an increase in terms of oil temps. However warm up will be vastly improved.

Originally Posted by wilson kop

Thanks for all that feedback on track temps.

Gives a fella hope that 420whp via a Dinan turbo, Dorch Stage 2, and Bend Cal tune can survive a 25min session running 100oct Sunoco.

I think if you push your car hard enough it'll over heat, there's no way around that. Even tyspeed with his ac delete race spec radiator upgrade couldn't keep his m2 cooled. He needed to do dual s55 aux rads + aux pump + radiator sprayers to keep temps under control. I really don't think there's much you can do for the n55 once you surpass 370 whp, there's just no way you can beat the radiator surface area limitations.


Also race gas is going to run alot hotter than e85 so you won't get the cooling effect of alcohol.

Originally Posted by -Eidos

Don't forget about the cooling effects of full e85

I'm also running a mosselman thermostat which probably buys me several laps in a 20 minute HPDE session by reducing load on the coolant loop since it keeps oil temps down temporarily. All this to say, the car isn't definitely winning long endurance races currently at the high power level, but it's definitely fun for HPDE, as a daily, and on the airstrip 😁

Will definitely look to log more temp values in the future.

Yeah I know e85 has excellent evaporative cooling. But I am 110% certain that if you push the car hard it'll over heat. There's no way around that, no tune, no turbo kit, nothing is going to get around the fact that the radiator is massively undersized in this car and the fact that bmw cut corners making it - in favor of better packaging. There have been alot of people out there trying to solve this problem to no avail. I don't want to be negative but that's the reality of this situation.

ZM2 and I have been brain storming for years on how to completely solve this to no success, and he's tried many variations of what we came up with.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah I know e85 has excellent evaporative cooling. But I am 110% certain that if you push the car hard it'll over heat. There's no way around that, no tune, no turbo kit, nothing is going to get around the fact that the radiator is massively undersized in this car and the fact that bmw cut corners making it - in favor of better packaging. There have been alot of people out there trying to solve this problem to no avail. I don't want to be negative but that's the reality of this situation.

ZM2 and I have been brain storming for years on how to completely solve this to no success, and he's tried many variations of what we came up with.

No offense taken, this is a discussion among members that want to push the platform forward!

Not to say that the heat issue is solved for me nor that my setup somehow replaced the need for Tyspeed level cooling, but there's room to reduce overall oil heat load being dumped into the coolant loop via the Mosselman thermostat (different than BM3 max cooling mode) and a more efficient turbo. Have either of you tried the Mosselman?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

No offense taken, this is a discussion among members that want to push the platform forward!

Not to say that the heat issue is solved for me nor that my setup somehow replaced the need for Tyspeed level cooling, but there's room to reduce overall oil heat load being dumped into the coolant loop via the Mosselman thermostat (different than BM3 max cooling mode) and a more efficient turbo. Have either of you tried the Mosselman?

Yeah I really want to move this platform ahead too, but with stock like bolt in options I don't think it's going to happen. We are going to need to see more extreme options like the s55 cooling swap. or an intercooler that only sits Infront of the radiator (like the er competition) and thus allows for a custom radiator that will actually be full height to slot in.

The mosselmann thermostat doesn't technically reduce any heat being dumped into the coolant loop *once operating temps are reached*, because the coolant heat exchanger is still present. What it does is delay the inevitable for maybe another lap. This is because the mosselmann thermostat only opens sooner, allowing the oil to remain cooler for just a lap or two more - it does nothing to increase the ability for heat to be shed. But once every thing is fully heated up (and it will fully heat up to the same temps as before because cooling surface area stays the same), the temperature will still be put into the coolant loop via the heat exchanger. Even further proof was tyspeed ran the bms sport oil cooler valve, and it did nothing but delay the inevitable. He even completely deleted the oil filter housing and ran a custom block off plate and oil filter for increased oil flow and that allow more improvement. So I think increased oil flow is critical to help aid in the oil cooling situation, and if that is what you need I think an after market high flow thermostat is a way better option (i.e. improved racing's thermostat which is the highest flowing thermostat on the market with customizable thermostat temps). So imo the mosselmann thermostat upgrade is kind of useless, and I don't really know why so many people are buying into it. It doesn't make sense to buy it for street use because 100C oil temps aren't bad, oil can operate at much higher temps and 100c+ oil temps helps burn out contamination like fuel and water, excessively low oil temps don't allow this to happen. Also Lowering the opening temps don't benefit much, it makes warm up for the street worse, and it doesn't help much on the track but delay the inevitable. Imo if I were to buy a thermostat upgrade it would be a block off plate + the improved racing thermostat (as I want the better flow, and I want it with the same temp thermostat as stock) + adapter fittings and nothing else, I also wouldn't delete the thermostat either because I still drive the car on the street. Imo lowering the thermostat operating temps is just a bandaid to an underlying problem, that being an oil cooler that is too small to do its job.



Now back to dumping temps into the coolant loop, to fix this you'd need to add an aux water pump to help flow through the aux radiator and heat exchanger, because the m2 doesn't have one for some reason (the m235i does). Unfortunately you cannot retrofit the m235i pump because the ECU can't control it, I've talked to some coders and it can't be coded either. So you have 2 options for this: buy an e39 pump which is an on or off pump without pwm control, and wire it in to the same fuse location. Or buy the m235i pump and use an aftermarket pierburg pump controller. ZM2 has already done this and it still isn't enough, so I really suspect that the main radiator is just too small.


A final option I talked to zm2c618 about was adding a 3 way valve to the heat exchanger to allow it to bypass that for track use, and renable it for the street to aid in oil warm up and cooling during low air flow idling conditions. I'm not sure where this will lead.

[///393]

Understanding there are limits that can’t be avoided, I am curious what a vented hood, ceramic coating the downpipe and turbofold, and a turbo blanket could do for an intermediate driver on track.

I’d apologize for thread jacking but this place is dead it’s just us here anyways.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah I really want to move this platform ahead too, but with stock like bolt in options I don't think it's going to happen. We are going to need to see more extreme options like the s55 cooling swap. or an intercooler that only sits Infront of the radiator (like the er competition) and thus allows for a custom radiator that will actually be full height to slot in.

The mosselmann thermostat doesn't technically reduce any heat being dumped into the coolant loop *once operating temps are reached*, because the coolant heat exchanger is still present. What it does is delay the inevitable for maybe another lap. This is because the mosselmann thermostat only opens sooner, allowing the oil to remain cooler for just a lap or two more - it does nothing to increase the ability for heat to be shed. But once every thing is fully heated up, the temperature will still be put into the coolant loop via the heat exchanger. Even further proof was tyspeed ran the bms sport oil cooler valve, and it did nothing but delay the inevitable. He even completely deleted the oil filter housing and ran a custom block off plate and oil filter for increased oil flow and that allow more improvement. So I think increased oil flow is critical to help aid in the oil cooling situation, and if that is what you need I think an after market high flow thermostat is a way better option (i.e. improved racing's thermostat which is the highest flowing thermostat on the market with customizable thermostat temps). So imo the mosselmann thermostat upgrade is kind of useless, and I don't really know why so many [...]

This is really good info. Next track day I'm gonna log temps for an entire open-pass HPDE session from grid to cool down and see how and if that differs from what you guys typically see.

What kind of temps are over heating cars encountering?