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M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > A tale of two datalogs, and a question about timing... [New logs from BM3 91 Stage 2]

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      06-04-2018, 07:54 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Thanks for the links. I didn't think you were hiding anything. Your post was focussed on IATs, so I get why you didn't put it there.

Your timing looks so clean, and the HPFP seems to be holding up pretty well. I get the sense that the E30 map at least, is probably limited by the HPFP. I wonder how much more E85 you could run, and consequently how much more timing and boost with the TTFS upgraded pump!
I might play around with it more later but since I do 250+ mile hi spirited drives in the mtns on the weekends there is no access i have found to E85 up there so I can't safely run it. I would do it 24/7 but when I can't get it I have to reflash it to 93 in the middle of a drive. PITA. So just going to run 93. Based on what I was seeing I could safely go to E30 which would be 3.5 gal. I was at 3 gal.

I might take the car to work and do some quick 3/4/5 gear pulls on 93 to see how they look. But the IAT will be lower since at 5am the ambient is way cooler
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      06-04-2018, 09:00 PM   #68
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From my experience, the E30 map should be more aggressive than what you showed. Normally timing cap is around 12.5~13 at top end, but you hit 10 early on above 6k and stop climbing. It looks to me you’re running OTS 93OCT STG2 with E30 gas.

The new 5’ intercooler is noticeably better, but you're definitely losing power to high IAT from mid range on 4th, maybe would from 3rd gear in repeated runs.

There're many other tuned N55s with less boost than stock M2. 5" IC are made for them, and stock M2. With tuned M2, you should start with 6", especially on stock turbo, because there is more heat from smaller turbo thrown same boost. You can keep this new IC though unless you get a very good deal for upgrade.

Other hardware upgrade you may consider -
1) Pure Inlet Pipe. This should lower turbo shaft speed and thus reduce heat and pick up efficiency. 275 USD + labor.
2) PS1 would be very rewarding with ethanol, my STG1 turbo was more octane limited than anything else. 900USD + labor
3) At that point, downpipe would be very helpful. If you don’t care smell, go catless for 300~500 USD. Otherwise HJS 200~300 core is 1k+.

With all above, you're easily 400+whp on pump gas OTS and 420 on E30.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m2ruder View Post
Neil,
I was not hiding just trying to uncluttered toe log graphs. Speed prolly around 140 give or take

Stg 2 E30 (mix is about E26)
independent 3rd, 4th, 5th then a 3/4/5/6 shift log

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b13fbcfd10b4372024a85aa
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b13fc21d10b4372024a85ac
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b13fc60d10b4372024a85ae
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b13fce3d10b4372024a85b0


Stg 2 93
3/4/5/ shift log

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b14458ed10b4372024a865f
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      06-04-2018, 09:34 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Oh, by the way... is it possible that lower temp spark plugs might help my situation? I know the NGK SILZKBR8D8S (97506) plugs are recommended by ProTuningFreaks, but they don't seem to be a popular mod on this forum.
I've been following this thread for the past two days, great content!

I did not get any better timing when I switched from stock plugs to the ptf recommended plugs at .022 or .020 inch gap.

my logs are very similar to yours. m235i, n55 ewg, central CT fuel. i get pulled timing even on the stage 2 91 octane map while I fill with 93 octane only. Mobil, shell, doesn't matter.
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      06-04-2018, 09:47 PM   #70
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Forgive the completely ignorant question...but I am new to all this...does the timing difference/pull damage the engine at all...or is it simply robbing you of power you should be getting from the tune? Also...would you know that this was happening if you didn't review the logs? Meaning...is there anything you can feel physically (feedback from the car) when this is happening? I ask because the only "strange" thing I have noticed since putting this tune on my car is that occasionally if I get on the throttle hard from a stop while I turn a corner (say turning left from a stop light) the car will drop power until I straighten out for a bit-maybe 20 meters or so. I really need the get some logs up so you guys can have a look, because honestly I won't have no idea what to look for...will try tomorrow.
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      06-04-2018, 10:43 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
From my experience, the E30 map should be more aggressive than what you showed. Normally timing cap is around 12.5~13 at top end, but you hit 10 early on above 6k and stop climbing. It looks to me you’re running OTS 93OCT STG2 with E30 gas.
Perhaps there was some change in the E30 map since you last looked at it SeanWRT. The logs themselves do state that it's 'Stage 2 E30 Octane'.
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      06-04-2018, 10:46 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by designatedposter View Post
I've been following this thread for the past two days, great content!

I did not get any better timing when I switched from stock plugs to the ptf recommended plugs at .022 or .020 inch gap.

my logs are very similar to yours. m235i, n55 ewg, central CT fuel. i get pulled timing even on the stage 2 91 octane map while I fill with 93 octane only. Mobil, shell, doesn't matter.
I'm certainly no expert, but I think that reading the logs is something that takes quite a bit of experience. If you're interested, post up some comparable logs for us to take a look at for feedback.

Remember, in order for them to be comparable & useful, they should be wide open throttle (WOT) 3rd, 4th or 5th gear pulls from ideally under 2,500rpm up to Redline with DSC off. 3rd gear in 6MT that works out as ~40 to ~100mph, which isn't too difficult or dangerous on a freeway with little traffic.
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      06-04-2018, 10:56 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87_LCI View Post
Forgive the completely ignorant question...but I am new to all this...does the timing difference/pull damage the engine at all...or is it simply robbing you of power you should be getting from the tune? Also...would you know that this was happening if you didn't review the logs? Meaning...is there anything you can feel physically (feedback from the car) when this is happening? I ask because the only "strange" thing I have noticed since putting this tune on my car is that occasionally if I get on the throttle hard from a stop while I turn a corner (say turning left from a stop light) the car will drop power until I straighten out for a bit-maybe 20 meters or so. I really need the get some logs up so you guys can have a look, because honestly I won't have no idea what to look for...will try tomorrow.
is it your traction control? sounds like the culprit if you're getting on it from stop light through a turn.
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      06-04-2018, 10:58 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87_LCI View Post
Forgive the completely ignorant question...but I am new to all this...does the timing difference/pull damage the engine at all...or is it simply robbing you of power you should be getting from the tune?
I'm probably not the best person to answer this, but I feel like I'm slowly learning more each day from other forum members.

I think the reality is that the DME has many correction approaches to protect the engine, and they're still all active with most of the tunes out there. Having said that, if the tune, which is based on ideal operating conditions, cannot be met, you're running in the 'protection' state for most of the time, which is sub-optimal for power, fuel consumption and may cause damage to the engine over the long term. If you're running in this 'protection' mode, there may not be any further 'fail safes' left if something else goes wrong.
Quote:
Also...would you know that this was happening if you didn't review the logs? Meaning...is there anything you can feel physically (feedback from the car) when this is happening?
Well, butt dyno might tell you that you're down on power, and something like a Dragy would give you slower times. Occasionally I've thought I'd felt some slight hesitance to rev, but to be honest, you'd see something that severe in the logs, and we don't.

My concern for people in the Bay Area in California (and other parts of the country with shitty gas), is that most people running tunes aren't taking or looking at logs, and assuming everything is fine, when it may not be. I'm really frustrated at my situation, but also relieved because I could have been blissfully unaware.
Quote:
I ask because the only "strange" thing I have noticed since putting this tune on my car is that occasionally if I get on the throttle hard from a stop while I turn a corner (say turning left from a stop light) the car will drop power until I straighten out for a bit-maybe 20 meters or so. I really need the get some logs up so you guys can have a look, because honestly I won't have no idea what to look for...will try tomorrow.
That's almost certainly DSC kicking in. Try doing the same thing in Sport+, where DSC is in MDM mode. If you've not got Euro MDM coded, or even better Euro M4 GTS MDM coded, then try it after you've done that as well. Of course, DSC Off would be the ideal test, but if you're not comfortable doing that, try with one of the MDM options.

Posting a log is fine, but one from a stop light is less useful than a WOT 3rd gear pull from 2,500 to redline with DSC off.
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      06-04-2018, 11:55 PM   #75
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I highly recommend people to take a look at the stock M2 ROM and look at the ignition timing and factor/compensation tables. Anyone with a decent knowledge of reading X/Y access 2D charts should be able to piece them together.

I'm here to help as needed.
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      06-05-2018, 06:42 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by designatedposter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F87_LCI View Post
Forgive the completely ignorant question...but I am new to all this...does the timing difference/pull damage the engine at all...or is it simply robbing you of power you should be getting from the tune? Also...would you know that this was happening if you didn't review the logs? Meaning...is there anything you can feel physically (feedback from the car) when this is happening? I ask because the only "strange" thing I have noticed since putting this tune on my car is that occasionally if I get on the throttle hard from a stop while I turn a corner (say turning left from a stop light) the car will drop power until I straighten out for a bit-maybe 20 meters or so. I really need the get some logs up so you guys can have a look, because honestly I won't have no idea what to look for...will try tomorrow.
is it your traction control? sounds like the culprit if you're getting on it from stop light through a turn.
Yeah... I thought about this just after I posted and figured that likely this would be the cause. Kind of dumb on my part. I basically only drive in Sport+ mode unless I am in my neighborhood, because I am still running V5 of the BM3 which has pretty aggressive pops. I will try to do as Nezil suggests and do a few runs tonight after work. I don't have the app on my phone so I guess I just connect my pc to the OBD and I figure there is a logging option in the menu of the BM3 program?
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      06-05-2018, 07:35 AM   #77
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I got some good strong pulls this morning, ambient was 64 deg at 5am. Here are the screen shots and files. I am a little confused on why it was not trying to target 17.2 as cool as the IAT's were.... It always tried to target a bit higher boost in the hotter climates. Bad octane again?


http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1659d4d10b4356deee1220

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1659f2d10b4356deee1221

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b165a1bd10b4356deee1223

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b165abfd10b4356deee1224
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Last edited by horsepower_and_hounds; 06-05-2018 at 04:31 PM..
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      06-07-2018, 10:26 PM   #78
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Ok, I finally got a chance to try and record a few logs...I messed it up though and I only got two decent ones.

Here they are:

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b19ed86d10b437faba93752
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b19ed3ad10b437faba9374f

Very curious to know what the experts on here can tell me

SeanWRT m2ruder cookiesowns Nezil very interested to hear your thoughts.

Here are the graphs:
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      06-08-2018, 01:47 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87_LCI View Post
Ok, I finally got a chance to try and record a few logs...I messed it up though and I only got two decent ones.

Here they are:

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b19ed86d10b437faba93752
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b19ed3ad10b437faba9374f

Very curious to know what the experts on here can tell me

SeanWRT m2ruder cookiesowns Nezil very interested to hear your thoughts.
Well... I'm certainly not an expert... I'm just learning myself. Having said that, your second log doesn't have any WOT sections and therefore isn't comparable to any of the other logs on here. Your first log however is... sort of.

The first log, as you obviously know, is a 4th, 5th and 6th gear pull. You're WOT for most of the time, but you don't run to red-line any any gear. There is a 3rd gear section, but you're not WOT for that.

In any case, even though you're not going to red-line, your timing is pretty inconsistent in your 5th and 6th gear sections. I'm not qualified to comment on it really, but to my 'untrained' eye, it looks like you don't have the octane for the tune you're running.

I might be wrong, but it looks like you're in Sport mode, rather than DSC Off. There are a couple of throttle angle corrections when you change gear that are indicative of DSC interaction.

That's my 2 pence (I'm British), but like I said, listen to others over me at this point.
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      06-08-2018, 01:51 AM   #80
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based on cookiesowns suggestion, I added 1 quart of E85 to the ~6 gallons of ACN 91 I had left in the tank. This was a pretty small amount of E85 to add, so I'd be surprised if it made any difference, but here are the logs:Still pretty bad by the looks of it...

I'm pretty much out of fuel now, but will be going on vacation on Tuesday next week... What is next to test cookiesowns? More E85? Shell fuel from a different station? NGK Plugs?
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      06-08-2018, 05:52 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2ruder View Post
I got some good strong pulls this morning, ambient was 64 deg at 5am. Here are the screen shots and files. I am a little confused on why it was not trying to target 17.2 as cool as the IAT's were.... It always tried to target a bit higher boost in the hotter climates. Bad octane again?


http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1659d4d10b4356deee1220

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1659f2d10b4356deee1221

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b165a1bd10b4356deee1223

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b165abfd10b4356deee1224
The car is looking to hit a specified load value. It can hit that in the cooler temps w/o hitting max boost.
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      06-08-2018, 06:28 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
based on cookiesowns suggestion, I added 1 quart of E85 to the ~6 gallons of ACN 91 I had left in the tank. This was a pretty small amount of E85 to add, so I'd be surprised if it made any difference, but here are the logs:Still pretty bad by the looks of it...

I'm pretty much out of fuel now, but will be going on vacation on Tuesday next week... What is next to test cookiesowns? More E85? Shell fuel from a different station? NGK Plugs?
What!? That looks much better and is on par with my ACN91 here on 91.. What you don't want is timing pull across all cylinders. 1-2cylinder 2-3max degree corrections is about normal / onpar with the typical strategy these DME's have.

Looks like octane really is the issue with your fuel there.. as adding that much E85 should bring you up to about E15-E25. Along with your corresponding drop in HPFP to the low 2000s mean you definitely have that ethanol mix in there.

Wonder how your car will do on a proper E30 mix in the stage 2 91/93.
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      06-08-2018, 03:09 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Well... I'm certainly not an expert... I'm just learning myself. Having said that, your second log doesn't have any WOT sections and therefore isn't comparable to any of the other logs on here. Your first log however is... sort of.

The first log, as you obviously know, is a 4th, 5th and 6th gear pull. You're WOT for most of the time, but you don't run to red-line any any gear. There is a 3rd gear section, but you're not WOT for that.

In any case, even though you're not going to red-line, your timing is pretty inconsistent in your 5th and 6th gear sections. I'm not qualified to comment on it really, but to my 'untrained' eye, it looks like you don't have the octane for the tune you're running.

I might be wrong, but it looks like you're in Sport mode, rather than DSC Off. There are a couple of throttle angle corrections when you change gear that are indicative of DSC interaction.

That's my 2 pence (I'm British), but like I said, listen to others over me at this point.
I'll try to do some more...it's hard to hit record on the laptop and then drive and then hit stop recording! There also isn't that many places I can go to do WOT pulls without quickly running out of room. I def was in DSC off..it showed on the dash. I swapped out my intake today, so I have to get some miles on the car apparently to lete it adapt...then I will try again. I did notice that the timing seemed ok in 3 and 4 but crap in 5 and 6.

thanks for the input.
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      06-08-2018, 03:33 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87_LCI View Post
I'll try to do some more...it's hard to hit record on the laptop and then drive and then hit stop recording! There also isn't that many places I can go to do WOT pulls without quickly running out of room. I def was in DSC off..it showed on the dash. I swapped out my intake today, so I have to get some miles on the car apparently to lete it adapt...then I will try again. I did notice that the timing seemed ok in 3 and 4 but crap in 5 and 6.

thanks for the input.
I think it would be best if you didn't focus on the recording so much. I did the same thing myself and probably still doing it. Just hit record a little earlier and stop when it is safe. It is ok if the log is a little long.

Here is a log with 2.5 gallons ok 100 octane + the rest 91 ACN from Kings 76 on a custom tune iteration. Still cleaning up the tune.
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b102663d10b4348d1914189

To my untrained eye the timing looks good. Open to others' input.

Sorry, I forgot to add. For comparison here is a log on same tune without 100 octane added. Not as clean but seems to be within the specs that cookiesown mentioned.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0898a1d10b432f2edcc796

Last edited by Mnoob2; 06-08-2018 at 05:07 PM..
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      06-08-2018, 05:03 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
What!? That looks much better and is on par with my ACN91 here on 91.. What you don't want is timing pull across all cylinders. 1-2cylinder 2-3max degree corrections is about normal / onpar with the typical strategy these DME's have.
That sounds promising... Thanks for the feedback.
Quote:
Looks like octane really is the issue with your fuel there.. as adding that much E85 should bring you up to about E15-E25. Along with your corresponding drop in HPFP to the low 2000s mean you definitely have that ethanol mix in there.
By my calculations, if we assume that my ACN 91 was 88, the small amount (1qt) of E85 that I added to the remaining 6 gallons in the tank would have resulted in an octane of 88.68, and an ethanol percentage of 13.
Quote:
Wonder how your car will do on a proper E30 mix in the stage 2 91/93.
Are you suggesting that I try an E30 mix with the Stage 2 91 / 93 OTS maps, or the E30 OTS map?

I can certainly do a tank of E30. I was actually considering doing half a tank, just in case I run into issues and need to add more Ethanol and / or ACN 91.

By my calculations, a 13.7 Gallon tank requires 10 Gallons of E10 ACN 91 to be mixed with 3.7 Gallons of E85 in order to achieve E30.

If I were to top up my nearly empty tank of E13 with 5 gallons of ACN 91, and 2 Gallons of E85, that would result in E29, and an octane of 92.335 (assuming Bay Area ACN 91 is actually 88).

I could certainly do that, but I'd have thought I should be using the E30 map if I were to put that much E85 in the tank, no?
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      06-08-2018, 05:19 PM   #86
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In the past I'd always posted the charts of my logging runs, but ran out of time this week... Here are the charts of my last 5 runs. For reference, the fuel was ~E13; 0.25 gallons of E85 added to the remaining 6 gallons of Valero ACN 91 in the tank. My car is FBO, with CSF FMIC, FTP Charge & Boost Pipes, and Fabspeed Sport Cat. The map used was the BM3 Stage 1 91 Octane OTS.

Runs 1 ~ 5:









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      06-08-2018, 08:08 PM   #87
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Nezil, it seems STG1 on E15 is doing better than typical stock on proper 91. I would log STG2 on E20~30. Should octane hold up well, that's what you can settle with for long term.

2 years ago Terry@bms tested 91+E30 on map1 where boost peaks 18~19 and taper to 15~16. M2 picks up 50whp on fully stock hardware.

My point is, on E30+AKI88 that you have, you probably will have the power you wanted in the first place from BM3. And engine will be just as happy as stock car on proper 91.

Life will be a lot easier if you don't pursue super clean ignition.
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      06-08-2018, 08:10 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackPride85 View Post
The car is looking to hit a specified load value. It can hit that in the cooler temps w/o hitting max boost.
Thanks! And pretty much what Dzenan pointed out
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