[Illusive3]

Hey everyone!

I recently bought a 2020 m2c with 3100 miles on it back in June. The car since has 6100, I have been loving the car and has been putting smiles on my face every time I drive it. However, there’s an issue with the headlights I’ve noticed since I got the car.

The headlight lens looks like it’s hazed/fracturing from the inside of the lens, does anyone else have this issue? I took it to two different dealerships in northern CA and have been denied both times by BMW NA and also my extended warranty coverage (UCC). BMW NA is citing outside influence on both claims from both dealers. They don’t give an answer as to what or why it is happening but they deny the claim nonetheless. The headlight is completely smooth to the touch from the outside.

Is there anything I can do to get them replaced through BMW? Anyone else have this issue? I can’t tell if I’m being super anal about the car but it completely ruins the look of the front end in my opinion.

[chris719]

I haven't seen this. Seems like they should step up on this. I do see water sometimes after washing inside but it evaporates.

[Kikuchiyo]

Exactly same as my ‘17 LCI.
I have brought this up to my dealership a couple of years ago but their response was the same as what you got.
They explained this was caused by the heat generated inside the headlight unit and that as this happened in the natural course of aging, they didn’t consider this a quality issue.
I am not 100% convinced as this hasn’t happened to any of my previous cars (all Japanese brands).

[Maynard]

There was a long thread on these in the F22 forum but I can't easily find it for you; would have been before '21. My sense was it is not happening to all of them, but some get it fairly early. IIRC, some were getting them replaced under warranty, but probably too long ago for that now. My 2016 does not have it, despite all kinds of weather, nor do lots of others - it isn't simple wear, but it might be typical if you have something like high humidity, or s/t else that stresses the plastic.

[Illusive3]

Originally Posted by Maynard

There was a long thread on these in the F22 forum but I can't easily find it for you; would have been before '21. My sense was it is not happening to all of them, but some get it fairly early. IIRC, some were getting them replaced under warranty, but probably too long ago for that now. My 2016 does not have it, despite all kinds of weather, nor do lots of others - it isn't simple wear, but it might be typical if you have something like high humidity, or s/t else that stresses the plastic.

I do remember this being an issue on other f series cars - notably the f30s. It seems a bit ridiculous given the number of miles + the car being only 3 years old that this is happening and is not being covered by BMW NA. The car is local to northern CA (Sacramento area) which is typically dry.

I spoke to my service advisor again and he said that his service manager has since reached out to BMW NA again to see if they would cover them as a 'good will' warranty claim.

[Illusive3]

Originally Posted by Kikuchiyo

Exactly same as my ‘17 LCI.
I have brought this up to my dealership a couple of years ago but their response was the same as what you got.
They explained this was caused by the heat generated inside the headlight unit and that as this happened in the natural course of aging, they didn’t consider this a quality issue.
I am not 100% convinced as this hasn’t happened to any of my previous cars (all Japanese brands).

Seems like this is a defect from the factory (bad design?) Because I have an older 2016 audi s3 and the headlights are in perfect form - aside from a couple of rock chips.

[Illusive3]

Wanted to give everyone an update on this issue. BMW NA ended up getting back to the service manager and told them they would cover 50% of the repair as a good will to me. I was still unhappy and took it up with the GM of the dealer and after going back and forth a couple of times they agreed to replace the headlights and pay for the difference (~$2700) that BMW NA was not covering.

I pick up my car tomorrow, just got the notification that it has been completed! Glad this worked out but man, was it a bumpy ride. I've been without my M2c for 2 weeks now - looking forward to getting back behind the wheel. The 530i loaner is comfy but doesn't compare!

[Kikuchiyo]

Congrats!
Is your car still under warranty?

My biggest concern/ interest is whether these micro cracks are progressive or stop developing at a certain point.
I hope the latter and actually it seems like so because there have been no obvious changes since I found this couple years ago.

[Illusive3]

Originally Posted by Kikuchiyo

Congrats!
Is your car still under warranty?

My biggest concern/ interest is whether these micro cracks are progressive or stop developing at a certain point.
I hope the latter and actually it seems like so because there have been no obvious changes since I found this couple years ago.

Still under warranty, yes! I think they crack and stop developing after a certain point but am not 100% sure. I saw a 340i with headlights that were cracked significantly more than mine on what seemed to be a 2018 yr model. I think if its been a few years and it hasn't gotten worse, you should be fine!

[///MPhatic]

This is literally caused by sunlight reflecting off of the inner bright bits. You'll see this on cars that face the sun all morning (parked outside or even in a garage). This is why you don't see it on all cars.

I'd bet 100% that your car sat facing the sun for extended periods.

They aren't cracks, they're like little scratches, and won't propagate, so if you stop parking in the sun then they will stop accumulating.

No way to "fix", but Bay Optiks might be able to replace just the lens instead of buying new assemblies, can't hurt to call.

https://bayoptiks.com/collections/f87-retrofits

[Illusive3]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

This is literally caused by sunlight reflecting off of the inner bright bits. You'll see this on cars that face the sun all morning (parked outside or even in a garage). This is why you don't see it on all cars.

I'd bet 100% that your car sat facing the sun for extended periods.

They aren't cracks, they're like little scratches, and won't propagate, so if you stop parking in the sun then they will stop accumulating.

No way to fix it other than to replace the lenses.

Bay Optiks might be able to replace the lens instead of buying new ones, can't hurt to call.

https://bayoptiks.com/collections/f87-retrofits

This makes sense, my car is not parked in a garage when I’m in office 2-3 days a week and is in direct sunlight for about 8 hours/day. Do you think PPFing the headlights will fix this? Or should I invest in looking like a douche with a car cover in the parking lot at work lol

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Illusive3

This makes sense, my car is not parked in a garage when I’m in office 2-3 days a week and is in direct sunlight for about 8 hours/day. Do you think PPFing the headlights will fix this? Or should I invest in looking like a douche with a car cover in the parking lot at work lol

If it is UV driven then good PPF will work.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Illusive3

This makes sense, my car is not parked in a garage when I’m in office 2-3 days a week and is in direct sunlight for about 8 hours/day. Do you think PPFing the headlights will fix this? Or should I invest in looking like a douche with a car cover in the parking lot at work lol

What you're needing is some custom headlight covers for the time the car is outside for hours on end in direct sunlight. It's not even the whole assembly you need to cover, it's just the "shoulder" of the lens, that's where the light gets focused, beamed, then refracted back to the inside.

Originally Posted by chris719

If it is UV driven then good PPF will work.

It's not UV, it's literally the light being refracted/scattered/focused on the inside of the lens. If I were a betting man I'd say that UV coating would not help.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

It's not UV, it's literally the light being refracted/scattered/focused on the inside of the lens. If I were a betting man I'd say that UV coating would not help.

Visible wavelengths of light at these intensities won't cause damage to plastic, so I am confused. Do you mean IR then?

I'm just not sure it's reflected light given the distribution either. Note that the frosted brow is showing the same issue in one of the shots, almost perpendicular to the lens. It almost looks like some kind of dirt or dirty vapor got into the housing and maybe got baked. I notice they are not sealed well, I see droplets sometimes after I pressure wash my car.

[chris719]

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...5&postcount=56

Someone fixed theirs by wet-sanding and polishing then applying PPF. It seems to be in the outer layer if sanding works.

PPF has good UV inhibition, I would recommend PPF on headlights simply to prevent the lenses from oxidizing over time. Let the film yellow and replace it after 5 years.

[jefe2000]

Originally Posted by Illusive3

BMW NA ended up getting back to the service manager and told them they would cover 50% of the repair as a good will to me. I was still unhappy and took it up with the GM of the dealer and after going back and forth a couple of times they agreed to replace the headlights and pay for the difference (~$2700) that BMW NA was not covering.

Well done! Sounds like you went through some successful negotiating. Too bad they didn’t just step up in the first place to honor the warranty, though.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by chris719

Visible wavelengths of light at these intensities won't cause damage to plastic...

They actually do. It's basically the bits inside the clear housing acting like a magnifying glass. I had never seen it before until I was washing my Lotus one day and I noticed these scratches on the inside of the lens. A quick google search turned up others that had a similar issue, and a Lotus fix. So off to the dealer I went. They literally installed a ring around the projector lens to keep the sunlight from refracting off of it and "scratching" the inside of the lens with light/heat.

So I'm at my BMW dealer one day getting my tail lights replaced for the "malfunction error" and my SA says "let me know if you have any issues with the fronts." A conversation was had, and he literally told me the same thing had happened to a myriad of BMW's, and there was no fix for it, but those who noticed the issue could get replacements as long as the car was still under warranty.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

They actually do.

No way. I pass extremely powerful light sources including lasers through plastic lenses at work. Whatever you’re observing, it’s not caused by visible wavelengths. Possibly by IR or UV or both. What you see on the BMW plastic highly unlikely to be the same effect because it’s almost perfectly uniform.

What of the guy that polished it out from the outside? The cracks are even in the brow area which is frosted on the inside. Looks like UV or otherwise induced plasticizer migration.

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/atta...1&d=1592540924


As you can see it’s extremely uniform and not caused by internal reflection.

A Q7 with similar and polished out: https://imgur.io/a/XwhSkvr

Another BMW where it can be sanded out:
https://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2018997

So, yes, it’s highly likely PPF prevents this or delays it from happening.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by chris719

No way. I pass extremely powerful light sources including lasers through plastic lenses at work. Whatever you’re observing, it’s not caused by visible wavelengths. Possibly by IR or UV or both. What you see on the BMW plastic highly unlikely to be the same effect because it’s almost perfectly uniform.

What of the guy that polished it out from the outside? The cracks are even in the brow area which is frosted on the inside. Looks like UV or otherwise induced plasticizer migration.

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/atta...1&d=1592540924


As you can see it’s extremely uniform and not caused by internal reflection.

A Q7 with similar and polished out: https://imgur.io/a/XwhSkvr

Another BMW where it can be sanded out:
https://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2018997

So, yes, it’s highly likely PPF prevents this or delays it from happening.

I'm not an expert on light waves, I just know what worked for my Lotus, and what the BMW dealer told me. To be fair, the Lotus scratches didn't look anything like the BMW scratches, but they're caused by the exposed projector lens. The dealer comments are worth about as much as dealer comments tend to be, other than the fact that he said he had seen it before, and would replace mine if I had the issue.

I would say sanding is a last resort because it removes the factory UV coating, which is irreplaceable. You can have "good" UV coating shot on by a body shop, but it's still not as good as the factory coating, and the aftermarket products are just terrible.

And this begs the question; if the housing is UV coated from the factory, and we know that it is, then it's some other wavelength, or something altogether different creating the damage.

I'd have to know precisely what's creating the damage to make an assessment on the PPF protection.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I'm not an expert on light waves, I just know what worked for my Lotus, and what the BMW dealer told me. To be fair, the Lotus scratches didn't look anything like the BMW scratches, but they're caused by the exposed projector lens. The dealer comments are worth about as much as dealer comments tend to be, other than the fact that he said he had seen it before, and would replace mine if I had the issue.

I would say sanding is a last resort because it removes the factory UV coating, which is irreplaceable. You can have "good" UV coating shot on by a body shop, but it's still not as good as the factory coating, and the aftermarket products are just terrible.

And this begs the question; if the housing is UV coated from the factory, and we know that it is, then it's some other wavelength, or something altogether different creating the damage.

I'd have to know precisely what's creating the damage to make an assessment on the PPF protection.

They aren’t UV coated, it’s actually UV inhibitor mixed into the plastic. Polycarbonate itself is very UV resistant without any additives, which is why your inners behind the lens are always ok. It’s not perfect though and yellows from UV-A over time, so they add inhibitors. The problem is the inhibitors are a consumable basically and can only handle so many free radicals before the effect is gone. I’m not sure by the exact mechanism but the cracking looks like plasticizer migration. I’d say if your lights are like this they are already f’ed and whether you polish or not you’re going to see oxidation sooner than later. If you do obviously the PPF or 2k clear is mandatory. I don’t recommend 2k clear because it’s dangerous for DIY use as you alluded to. PPF is the only thing that works otherwise since it has the same challenges as the plastic and contains UV inhibitors to help prevent its own yellowing.

[Maynard]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

......I'd have to know precisely what's creating the damage.....

And without that, anything is just pure speculative guesswork. Don't lets confuse all the other posters with pseudoscientific guestimates.

From the available evidence, it isn't happening to all BMW cars. My 2016 does not have this, and is a daily so it sees temp changes from winter to heated garage. I'm not suspecting general UV, as it was daily parked in the sun for the first 4 years of it's life on weekdays (but in NY, not AZ). Not a lot of data, but it's a single example (I know there are many others w/o it, but no idea of the frequency). Glad to hear some dealers are good about a courtesy replacement.

I'd look to find the old post on the F22 boards, as they may have turned up more data by now - I think that started back before '18.

It MIGHT be happening to other brands in a very similar fashion, but the Audi crazing looks more linear/crystalline, and appears to be on the outside if sanding it helped. IIRC others have reported BMW versions to be an internal issue (i.e. with a flat shiny exterior that seems undamaged).

Would be interesting to know some details for cars with/without - power washers or signs of water in the lights? Taken thru car washes? left outdoors a lot or in full sun (UV related?)? Left with headlights on but not moving for long periods (heat-related?)? Type of car-care chems used, especially non-waxxes (iron removers, wax removers, bug/tar remover, etc).

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Maynard

And without that, anything is just pure speculative guesswork. Don't lets confuse all the other posters with pseudoscientific guestimates.

From the available evidence, it isn't happening to all BMW cars. My 2016 does not have this, and is a daily so it sees temp changes from winter to heated garage. I'm not suspecting general UV, as it was daily parked in the sun for the first 4 years of it's life on weekdays (but in NY, not AZ). Not a lot of data, but it's a single example (I know there are many others w/o it, but no idea of the frequency). Glad to hear some dealers are good about a courtesy replacement.

I'd look to find the old post on the F22 boards, as they may have turned up more data by now - I think that started back before '18.

It MIGHT be happening to other brands in a very similar fashion, but the Audi crazing looks more linear/crystalline, and appears to be on the outside if sanding it helped. IIRC others have reported BMW versions to be an internal issue (i.e. with a flat shiny exterior that seems undamaged).

Would be interesting to know some details for cars with/without - power washers or signs of water in the lights? Taken thru car washes? left outdoors a lot or in full sun (UV related?)? Left with headlights on but not moving for long periods (heat-related?)? Type of car-care chems used, especially non-waxxes (iron removers, wax removers, bug/tar remover, etc).

I suspect you will see this with more than one model and OEM. I think Valeo is the mfg of all these assemblies, so I bet this plastic gets used on multiple models if not brands. There are some examples on the F30 board too. The first link I showed was a BMW with what appears to be cracking on the inside but was actually sanded out. It seems like it's not on the very top but slightly below it maybe. It could even be as simple as bad batches of plastic and not driven by any environmental factors.