[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

3 extra inches on a signifcantly undersized radiator is still a large impact, especially since this region requires the fan to help pull air through, and now you're pulling hot air through. It would be negligible if cooling was not an issue and yet it is.

There is nothing undersized about it. On the E series chassis, sure - but the M2's radiator is apparently an upgrade over the CSF radiator (which is an upgrade for the E series N54/N55 cars)

Originally Posted by F87source

And yet you've seem to have read the logs all wrong because as zm2 pointed out he is still over heating...

Show me where

Originally Posted by F87source

Here's another fast driver with a full d088 cooling suite installed: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1617861

What you'll notice is oil temps are sub limp mode and coolant is still hitting above 117C which is where the m2 starts pulling power. So it's funny how you claim this issue doesn't exist - despite zm2, og shark, and tyspeed all having issues and having serious cooling upgrades.

read it months ago, reviewed the logs - can't see torque at the wheels so I don't know when or how limp was triggered. Don't know ambient temps, but I'm pretty sure I did a historic weather lookup and saw around 90-100F temps.

IATs were also 160F and there was literally no timing - not a coolant issue.

Originally Posted by F87source

WMI is risky without the proper kit and tune because you are spraying fuel - which can go hyper lean if your kit sprays while the injectors cut off during a misfire etc. But this is not possible when spraying just water because water is not a fuel source. You also don't realize intercoolers heat soak on track, especially in the tight corners. You keep comparing street logs for single pulls which is completely irrelevant on track where you will not see those near ambient iats as your intercooler heat soaks.

People use to say this is why the EVO2 was the best track intercooler, and guess how quickly actual track data refuted that. Literally that statement is baseless and I have actual track data to prove it.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

There is nothing undersized about it. On the E series chassis, sure - but the M2's radiator is apparently an upgrade over the CSF radiator (which is an upgrade for the E series N54/N55 cars)

Except that it is undersized... The fact that bmw cut it shorter so the intercooler can tuck underneath it means it is smaller than it could have been. Look at the s55 and that is a full length full sized radiator. That's why the s55 doesn't have cooling issues despite running 6000-700 whp. There's also a reason why the m235ir is detuned to 270whp, and it has to do with cooling...

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Show me where


read it months ago, reviewed the logs - can't see torque at the wheels so I don't know when or how limp was triggered. Don't know ambient temps, but I'm pretty sure I did a historic weather lookup and saw around 90-100F temps.

IATs were also 160F and there was literally no timing - not a coolant issue.

From Zm2, the guy who actually owns the car and experiences the issues. BTW how do you know what day he hit the track, he could have posted the logs later on from the date he actually attended. Do you also know which track he went to?

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=17


Timing can be pulled because of coolant temps, especially if you're on an ethanol or high octane map which are generally more agressive on timing vs. iat's.

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

People use to say this is why the EVO2 was the best track intercooler, and guess how quickly actual track data refuted that. Literally that statement is baseless and I have actual track data to prove it.

And there is plenty of data proving other wise from many other platforms as well - there's a reason the m4 gts uses water injection to supplement octane despite having an extremely efficent air to water intercooler, because it works - this was also used in f1. not from a guy using an unknown kit - that might not be progressive meaning it wont spray until a set boost point meaning no iat supression when needed, without a tuning, and an unknown mixture. Don't forget water injection supresses knock as well by cooling incylinder temps + the lowers the iats, an intercooler can't do that.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Are you sure?

Because I'm not:
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7740bd10b430714656de8
(your log)

Minute marker 2:72 - 421lbf actual rated torque at 207F coolant (20psi/11* timing)
Minute marker 5:748 - 419lbf actual rated torque at 252F coolant (20psi/10.5* timing)

Compared to your previous run at that same track in 45F weather:



Yeah - beating your PB, trapping 6MPH faster and keeping the cooling system at the same temps in 30F cooler weather. This is also with 2 mods done to the oil side of the car - not the coolant.



More oil cooling will be needed, a radiator is doing jack crap and that E39 coolant pump is likely doing nothing to help. More than likely BMW probably deleted the second pump to save on pumping losses and to increase flow. Maybe a M235i would need it because it's meant to be a daily driver in stop and go traffic with high amounts of time idling - but the M2 was more track focused and that was probably seen as unnecessary.

You’re a moron on conveying your POV on anything track related, bc you never go to the track.

I had new coil overs, stickier tires, different brake pads, and the track had more grip bc it wasn’t as cold—that’s where the time and speed difference came from bn those two comparisons.

The time would have been even faster if coolant temps weren’t 242-253F and the car wasn’t pulling power. Throttle position was 93% in your first time marker with higher tq & timing while it was 100% in the second with lower tq & timing—that shows the car is pulling power to manage coolant temps, which you can absolutely feel on track!

Once ambient hits 85F+ and I’m on a normal high speed track, we’re definitely still going to overheat.

Quit all this internet armchair quarterback, inane focus on IATs (bc it’s only one of many variables that increase/decrease speed on track), and theoretical think you know it all bullshit until you take the time and money to do some real world testing on track.

All you’re doing is discrediting yourself to everyone here and becoming someone that no one values your input.

[ThreeStripes]

Ray clearly has a passion for intercoolers and seems like he just wants to help. Y’all play nice.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ThreeStripes

Ray clearly has a passion for intercoolers and seems like he just wants to help. Y’all play nice.

I actually don't care about intercoolers that much, but there was so much misinformation surrounding them, I feel compelled to correct it. On the N/A platforms it was exhaust velocity and intake resonance harmonics, and on turbocharged cars it's intercoolers.

It's always someone comes up with an often repeated superstition - and when you peel away the layers it's misinterpretation of data or worse yet, founded on nothing. When I asked people why a particular brand of intercooler was the best - the actual defense didn't make sense, worse still the data didn't support it. It takes a while to undo this level of thinking and it means I have to be consistent as to WHY what they have heard isn't true. Unfortunately, it makes me come off as a zealot.

But no worries, I'm done responding to him permanently. 3 years ago, he argued his Evo2 was the best intercooler on the platform and superior to his Dinan. I reviewed the logs myself, and the Dinan was "better" (both were garbage). I recommended to him a race intercooler and he was as condescending then as he is now.

Proof of said statement:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=573

Recently, I was the one who brought up the suggestion of the oil cooler and thermostat, again I was met with his condescending attitude, and I let it go.

Proof of said statement:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=310

Again, I took the time to explain the factors and WHY things are occurring and what could be done about it:

Proof of said statement:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=321

This is the third time he's carried this attitude - I've reviewed his logs, singled out exactly what the data shows and he again talks down to me, literally insulting my intelligence. I'm doing this for fun because I enjoy it - I respect myself too much to bother with him anymore.

Want to waste money and reinvent the wheel, do what ZM2 does. If you want advice based in fact and working concepts, read through my posts, links, data logs. Absolutely no issue with F87Source though.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Tyspeed debunked that with IR thermometer measurements showing the aux radiator without the pump was not doing anything and barely even hot as not enough coolant made it there...

He didn't debunk anything. Isn't the coolant pump software controlled - how was he measuring this - at full duty cycle?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Except that it is undersized... The fact that bmw cut it shorter so the intercooler can tuck underneath it means it is smaller than it could have been. Look at the s55 and that is a full length full sized radiator. That's why the s55 doesn't have cooling issues despite running 6000-700 whp. There's also a reason why the m235ir is detuned to 270whp, and it has to do with cooling...

Except that it's not. It's basically the same size as the E series radiators, which have supported time attack cars (without an axillary cooler)

Example:
E Series Radiator 41rows (6.5mm per row)
https://csfrace.com/csf_products/dir...oling-systems/
F Series Radiator 41 rows (6.5mm per row)
https://csfrace.com/csf_products/dir...oling-systems/

Time attack 135i and 335i cars literally use just one radiator and dual oil coolers without issue:

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...r#post21958879

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...2009-bmw-135i/

Originally Posted by F87source

From Zm2, the guy who actually owns the car and experiences the issues. BTW how do you know what day he hit the track, he could have posted the logs later on from the date he actually attended. Do you also know which track he went to?

I do - read the thread, he tells you the track (Circuits of the Americas - COTA) and the date.

Post was made:
06-24-2019, 11:26 AM,
Statement made:

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Had my first track time in the M2 this weekend...

Weather data:
https://www.wunderground.com/history...date/2019-6-22

https://www.wunderground.com/history...date/2019-6-23

OG Shark's thread about said track date:

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1625002

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Title: COTA 6/23 & 6/24 - Chin
Anyone heading out there? Seems to be a few M2’s in this area so just curious if any are planning on going. Going to be first time on the track with my new to me OG18 and my father’s first ever track day so really looking forward to it - the heat not so much.

OG's Shark's quote about WHEN the log was taken:

Originally Posted by OG Shark

This was from the 3:00 session Sunday

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d0fe58cc090c610f32d3815

[ZM2]

It’s called the bleeding edge for a reason. When you’re one of the first people out there trying to push a platform to its limits, you’re limited to whatever solutions are available at the time.

Many of the parts that are on the car now did not exist back in 2017-18 when this all began. And, no one else had data on what to do about it, so trial and error is the game when someone is pioneering a path. To come in later and act like hey you should have done this or that is disingenuous.

Again, the coolant temp issue is not solved. System capacity, efficiency, and airflow are the only variables dictating that and when capacity and efficiency are max’ed out without beginning to chop the car up, that’s where airflow comes in and hence the focus on it as next steps.

What someone else did with some other car with some other tune on the street or some other track has no significant bearing on what will fix my particular issue. So, doing online log & numbers analyses without real world testing is fruitless.

The next step is to see just how much the car will overheat during next summer, and then address the airflow issue via trial and error, as no one else has data to support what will best fix the issue. Everything else is useless conjecture no matter how many unrelated logs or data are looked at.

[ThreeStripes]

Originally Posted by F87source

Look at the s55 and that is a full length full sized radiator. That's why the s55 doesn't have cooling issues despite running 6000-700 whp. There's also a reason why the m235ir is detuned to 270whp, and it has to do with cooling...

A) The S55 handles cooling way better, but does need upgrades in extreme time attack scenarios as documented by OG Shark. Everything is bigger in Texas including cooling demands.

B) The N55 equipped M235i Racing was quoted at 333hp (245kW) by BMW press release and Motortrend. The S55 powered M2CS Racing was detuned to between 280hp and 365hp (up to 450hp for track day/de use) depending on BoP and ‘power stick’ utilized. These are racing cars intended to comply with racing regulations. The power they deliver is as much a result of those rule sets as they are engineering related.
See links below:

BMW Press Release
https://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=915686
https://www.motor1.com/news/43357/bm...nd-450-nm/amp/

We all want to see the same thing here so I encourage everyone to just enjoy the conversation and the various perspectives/ideas folks bring.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

He didn't debunk anything. Isn't the coolant pump software controlled - how was he measuring this - at full duty cycle?

Bootmod3 max cool mode when the car is up to temp after a long hard drive or lap on the track - you know how track day guys and race teams usually gather data in the pits....

It's crazy how you can dispute that there is a coolant over heating problem when you've never even tracked the car or pushed it to the very limits. You're literally looking at street data logs and casual track days guys and going "yep no problem here". Meanwhile the guys pushing to the limit and spending crazy rnd money can actually seen that isn't the case.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Bootmod3 max cool mode when the car is up to temp after a long hard drive or lap on the track - you know how track day guys and race teams usually gather data in the pits....

That's IF he had max cool. Pretty sure OGShark did not on his original run, so it depends on when that test was conducted

Originally Posted by F87source

It's crazy how you can dispute that there is a coolant over heating problem when you've never even tracked the car or pushed it to the very limits. You're literally looking at street data logs and casual track days guys and going "yep no problem here". Meanwhile the guys pushing to the limit and spending crazy rnd money can actually seen that isn't the case.

Wait - who said I never tracked my car? I don't currently track my car, but I have. And I'm not sure why I have to drive ZM2 or anyone's car to make an observation of

"These IATs are too high"
or
"this is an oil temp issue, and because the oil isn't being cooled well enough, it heats up the coolant."

I mean, it's literally obvious at this point. You can look at videos from M2Guru and PAL and you can clearly see that coolant temps move a lot more than oil, and there is a linear relationship that the hotter the oil gets, the hotter the coolant gets.

You keep on pointing out coolant and I've given you 2-3 examples of all competitive cars that solved the issue with more oil cooling - not with aero, 5 radiators, not with smaller intercoolers, and not with condescending quips.

You're talking airflow, and brought up the S55 - it has 3 coolers (intercooler, Oil and DCT) blocking literally 85% of the front facing engine radiator and you're still claiming that it's an airflow issue.




#1 is the charge air coolant radiator (intercooler)
#2 is the ENGINE coolant radiator
#3 is the charge air coolant radiator (intercooler)
#4 is the intercooler
#5 is the coolant tank (intercooler)
#6 Expansion tank (engine)
#7 Thermostat for DCT
#8 Engine Radiator
#9 Oil cooler
#10 DCT cooler


You're hanging on to one guy who is being used as a test mule for CSF to hock their garbage parts and think there is no other answer, despite the examples I've shown you.

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...php?t=1864339#

At this point, you guys can say what you want, and do what you want. There are plenty of other people who I'm happy to help

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

That's IF he had max cool. Pretty sure OGShark did not on his original run, so it depends on when that test was conducted



Wait - who said I never tracked my car? I don't currently track my car, but I have. And I'm not sure why I have to drive ZM2 or anyone's car to make an observation of

"These IATs are too high"
or
"this is an oil temp issue, and because the oil isn't being cooled well enough, it heats up the coolant."

I mean, it's literally obvious at this point. You can look at videos from M2Guru and PAL and you can clearly see that coolant temps move a lot more than oil, and there is a linear relationship that the hotter the oil gets, the hotter the coolant gets.

You keep on pointing out coolant and I've given you 2-3 examples of all competitive cars that solved the issue with more oil cooling - not with aero, 5 radiators, not with smaller intercoolers, and not with condescending quips.

You're talking airflow, and brought up the S55 - it has 3 coolers (intercooler, Oil and DCT) blocking literally 85% of the front facing engine radiator and you're still claiming that it's an airflow issue.




#1 is the charge air coolant radiator (intercooler)
#2 is the ENGINE coolant radiator
#3 is the charge air coolant radiator (intercooler)
#4 is the intercooler
#5 is the coolant tank (intercooler)
#6 Expansion tank (engine)
#7 Thermostat for DCT
#8 Engine Radiator
#9 Oil cooler
#10 DCT cooler


You're hanging on to one guy who is being used as a test mule for CSF to hock their garbage parts and think there is no other answer, despite the examples I've shown you.

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...php?t=1864339#

At this point, you guys can say what you want, and do what you want. There are plenty of other people who I'm happy to help

1) I don't think you remotely understand what max cool mode does....

Max cool mode lowers coolant temp targets so the thermostat stays open and the water pump runs at full duty cycle for longer. At some point when the coolant gets cold enough it will slow back down to stock targets to prevent over cooling. https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...21&postcount=1


Now what it doesn't do is increase cooling capacity, so it wouldn't make a single difference whether or not OG shark had it, because if he is over a set thermal threshhold in the DME, then the car will be targeting full pump duty cycle and fully open thermostats anyways. So it won't matter.


I brought up max cool mode because you said tyspeed's measurements could be off because the pump may not be running at full duty cycle. First off that would be unlikely if the car is up to temp on track and you just pulled into the pits, second of all with max cool mode it is even more unlikely, and thirdly you assume tyspeed doesn't understand all of this depsite chasing overheating issues for years and is stupid enough to measure the car when it isn't running full duty cycle. He was the one that discovered that the m2 doesn't have an aux water pump and logged its benefits when adding one.



2) If you aren't actively tracking your car to a level where overheating is occuring, then you can just dismiss it based on what you see from a far. There have been extremely fast drivers who actually track their car frequently and have reported this over and over again, you're the only one denying this is a problem and you don't even actively track your car.


BTW like I pointed out before, Tyspeed removed his heat exchanger and further isolated coolant and oil temps by using a different oil filter housing and external filter. Then added a massive csf boss oil cooler. Guess what coolant temps were still over heating. It's almost as if it wasn't the oil causing the over heating but it really was coolant all along, and I would suspect that's the case because of how small the heat exchanger is and for the fact that aux radiator core stays so cold despite being fed from the hot side of the main radiator - meaning coolant flow is so slow through there that any hot coolant heated by the heat exchanger flows very slowly to the main radiator so it won't be a massive impact.


As for the large delta in coolant temps vs. oil temps, you forget that the radiator is burried behind an ac condensor and recieves air flow from behind 2 tiny grilles. When air speed drops as the car slows down air flow also drops, and now you have an intercooler that is heat soaking dump hot air into your radiator that is loosing air flow. The oil cooler is directly exposed to the air steam with nothing in its way. Tyspeed also observed better cooling without the radiator fan in the way, because apparently it doesn't flow enough at high speeds.


But for some reason you think looking at logs without having the complete picture beats first hand experience.


3) The difference with the S55 is that it compensates for lost air flow with more surface area. Significantly more surface area in the main radiator and aux rad.... The S55 radiator has atleast the height of the stock intercooler in extra height. Seems like you didn't consider that.... The aux radiator on the S55 is also signifcantly larger than the N55's and it has an aux pump as well iirc. The S55 also has a mechanical water pump which outflows the electric water pump on the n55, so again another advantage.

Like I said before when you lack surface area and you take away more air flow and dump more heat into the radiator there is no way you will get better cooling. That is just physics....


4) Im hanging onto tyspeed because he was the one who broke things down with actual experimentation in multiple phases. Despite being a "test mule" for CSF he never lied or covered up the fact that he over heated - even if it made csf look bad. He was compeltely transparent and provided real data.

You claim you're helping but so far you're not, all I have seen is you saying the problem doesn't exist (despite experienced shops like ogshark, tyspeed, and faster drivers like zm2 saying it is a problem - crazy when you're literally on the outside analyzing only a fraction of what is really going on) when there is clear cut evidence otherwise. Then you try and compare it to other platforms pushing signifcantly less power than ZM2 does on a signifcantly less capable chassis (meaning you can't push as hard on track) and then try to draw correlation. There are guys here literally have been here since August 15 2018 brain storming for hundreds of hours, spending thousands of dollars, and trying every thing to solve it. You come in during the last few months and for some reason you think you have the full picture and know it all and claim coolant was never the issue.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

That's IF he had max cool. Pretty sure OGShark did not on his original run, so it depends on when that test was conducted



Wait - who said I never tracked my car? I don't currently track my car, but I have. And I'm not sure why I have to drive ZM2 or anyone's car to make an observation of

"These IATs are too high"
or
"this is an oil temp issue, and because the oil isn't being cooled well enough, it heats up the coolant."

I mean, it's literally obvious at this point. You can look at videos from M2Guru and PAL and you can clearly see that coolant temps move a lot more than oil, and there is a linear relationship that the hotter the oil gets, the hotter the coolant gets.

You keep on pointing out coolant and I've given you 2-3 examples of all competitive cars that solved the issue with more oil cooling - not with aero, 5 radiators, not with smaller intercoolers, and not with condescending quips.

You're talking airflow, and brought up the S55 - it has 3 coolers (intercooler, Oil and DCT) blocking literally 85% of the front facing engine radiator and you're still claiming that it's an airflow issue.




#1 is the charge air coolant radiator (intercooler)
#2 is the ENGINE coolant radiator
#3 is the charge air coolant radiator (intercooler)
#4 is the intercooler
#5 is the coolant tank (intercooler)
#6 Expansion tank (engine)
#7 Thermostat for DCT
#8 Engine Radiator
#9 Oil cooler
#10 DCT cooler


You're hanging on to one guy who is being used as a test mule for CSF to hock their garbage parts and think there is no other answer, despite the examples I've shown you.

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...php?t=1864339#

At this point, you guys can say what you want, and do what you want. There are plenty of other people who I'm happy to help

N55 radiator core size: ~13 5/8" = 34.6075 cm (Height) X 23 5/8" = 60.0075 cm (width) according to csf's stock replacement
https://ind-distribution.com/product...l-transmission


The stock intercooler is ~14.5 cm tall according to my own measurements


The vrsf race intercooler is: ~21″ (W) x 11″ (H) x 6″ (D) according to VRSF.

so 11" = 27.94 cm - 14.5 cm = 13.44 cm taller than stock, and that's how much more of the radiator the VRSF Race intercooler will block because the stock intercooler sits right under the radiator and has almost no gap.


so 13.44 cm = 5.2913386" (not 3" like you claimed)... And 13.44 cm / 34.6075 cm = 38.8355% of the main radiator is covered when switching to a race intercooler.




SO over 1/3 of the radiator's effective surface area is now covered by an intercooler that is blocking air flow, and dumping more heat into the radiator. And you believe that blocking more than 1/3 of the radiator's frontal surface area will have no impact whatsoever? Right..............



The S55 radiator should also extend down to where the stock intercooler is: so ~34.6075 cm + 14.5 cm = 49.1075cm. That's ~5.7" taller than the n55 radiator - this allows the S55's radiator to get clean flow from the large lower opening of the bumper vs. the short n55 radiator which has to get most of its flow from the signifcantly smaller kidney grilles. So on the S55 you get more surface area + cleaner air flow which compenstates for its air to water radiator sitting infront of it. With the n55 you get a short radiator that already loses the flow from the bottom opening, and now you add an intercooler that covers nearly 40% of it - yeah that totally wont affect cooling at all.....

And you said the n55 radiator isn't undersized...


Like I said before the coolant cooling issue on the n55 is real... and don't forget, over heating water temps blows head gaskets and warps the block and head. High iat's will not be remotely as detrimental if you are running high enough octane and especially ethanol which offers evaporative cooling in the cylinder.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

1) I don't think you remotely understand what max cool mode does....

Max cool mode lowers coolant temp targets so the thermostat stays open and the water pump runs at full duty cycle for longer. At some point when the coolant gets cold enough it will slow back down to stock targets to prevent over cooling. https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...21&postcount=1


Now what it doesn't do is increase cooling capacity, so it wouldn't make a single difference whether or not OG shark had it, because if he is over a set thermal threshhold in the DME, then the car will be targeting full pump duty cycle and fully open thermostats anyways. So it won't matter.


I brought up max cool mode because you said tyspeed's measurements could be off because the pump may not be running at full duty cycle. First off that would be unlikely if the car is up to temp on track and you just pulled into the pits, second of all with max cool mode it is even more unlikely, and thirdly you assume tyspeed doesn't understand all of this depsite chasing overheating issues for years and is stupid enough to measure the car when it isn't running full duty cycle. He was the one that discovered that the m2 doesn't have an aux water pump and logged its benefits when adding one.

I'm not sure you think Tyspeed is the definitive source on what's best and correct. Again, he's sponsored by a brand who is using him as a tester for their parts that don't work well.

Originally Posted by F87source

2) If you aren't actively tracking your car to a level where overheating is occuring, then you can just dismiss it based on what you see from a far. There have been extremely fast drivers who actually track their car frequently and have reported this over and over again, you're the only one denying this is a problem and you don't even actively track your car.

No, I'm not. I'm in disagreement on what's causing the problem, which I'm sure I articulated many times before.

Originally Posted by F87source

BTW like I pointed out before, Tyspeed removed his heat exchanger and further isolated coolant and oil temps by using a different oil filter housing and external filter. Then added a massive csf boss oil cooler. Guess what coolant temps were still over heating. It's almost as if it wasn't the oil causing the over heating but it really was coolant all along, and I would suspect that's the case because of how small the heat exchanger is and for the fact that aux radiator core stays so cold despite being fed from the hot side of the main radiator - meaning coolant flow is so slow through there that any hot coolant heated by the heat exchanger flows very slowly to the main radiator so it won't be a massive impact.

Is he still running the CSF? If so, that's literally 90% of the issue. I've said this before - CSF is garbage, and I could eyeball it and tell despite your protests to the contrary:

Originally Posted by F87source

But for some reason you think looking at logs without having the complete picture beats first hand experience.

Guess the best drivers are engineers. right?

Originally Posted by F87source

4) Im hanging onto tyspeed because he was the one who broke things down with actual experimentation in multiple phases. Despite being a "test mule" for CSF he never lied or covered up the fact that he over heated - even if it made csf look bad. He was compeltely transparent and provided real data.

You claim you're helping but so far you're not, all I have seen is you saying the problem doesn't exist (despite experienced shops like ogshark, tyspeed, and faster drivers like zm2 saying it is a problem - crazy when you're literally on the outside analyzing only a fraction of what is really going on) when there is clear cut evidence otherwise. Then you try and compare it to other platforms pushing signifcantly less power than ZM2 does on a signifcantly less capable chassis (meaning you can't push as hard on track) and then try to draw correlation. There are guys here literally have been here since August 15 2018 brain storming for hundreds of hours, spending thousands of dollars, and trying every thing to solve it. You come in during the last few months and for some reason you think you have the full picture and know it all and claim coolant was never the issue.

I actually called a few shops last week, and I don't mean tuners, I mean actual race cars.

What I was told was - Maybe the intercooler could be an issue, but the radiator was a BIG upgrade. CSF was referred to as "Junk" and "trash" and that their radiator(s) were worse than stock and even caused normal cars to overheat.

I was told by one shop they use a ER oil cooler, PWR Radiator, Mishimoto intercooler, M4 Aux radiator and EFR8374 - 505whp and running at 40mins per race with ZERO cooling issues. Per our conversation, the radiator was a HUGE upgrade (with the CSF being a downgrade) PWR's radiator was a big help on all the cars, including their E46 race car. They were complimentary of D088, saying they are good alternatives (for the Aux?), and ER's oil cooler was praised as well.

We discussed the intercooler, and their concern was mostly pressure drop (from what they tested) and area flow. It was suggested to get the PWR radiator first - then change the intercooler.
I inquired about the radiator, but it looks like it was maybe a one off - PWR doesn't have it on their page. They told me they had CSF make theirs after a PWR gave them the information - (it was again reiterated that CSF is no good) Side note - they are planning on making their own intercooler with PWR.

They also run no thermostat and the rest of the cooling system is basically unchanged (stock exchanger is still in place) stock ducting/shrouds/fans/ areo/etc.

For the record, this car is a season winning GT1 car.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

N55 radiator core size: ~13 5/8" = 34.6075 cm (Height) X 23 5/8" = 60.0075 cm (width) according to csf's stock replacement
https://ind-distribution.com/product...l-transmission

The stock intercooler is ~14.5 cm tall according to my own measurements


The vrsf race intercooler is: ~21″ (W) x 11″ (H) x 6″ (D) according to VRSF.

so 11" = 27.94 cm - 14.5 cm = 13.44 cm taller than stock, and that's how much more of the radiator the VRSF Race intercooler will block because the stock intercooler sits right under the radiator and has almost no gap.


so 13.44 cm = 5.2913386" (not 3" like you claimed)... And 13.44 cm / 34.6075 cm = 38.8355% of the main radiator is covered when switching to a race intercooler.

I have claimed that the race intercooler is 3" taller than a regular STEPPED intercooler. I even did so in this very thread:

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=13

Next, I'll concede. The S55 radiator is a LOT larger - but my intercooler still allows almost 60% of the frontal area to be uncovered. The S55 is less than 15%
(I posted a picture of my intercooler underneath the grills and bumper.)

Originally Posted by F87source

SO over 1/3 of the radiator's effective surface area is now covered by an intercooler that is blocking air flow, and dumping more heat into the radiator. And you believe that blocking more than 1/3 of the radiator's frontal surface area will have no impact whatsoever? Right..............

The S55 radiator should also extend down to where the stock intercooler is: so ~34.6075 cm + 14.5 cm = 49.1075cm. That's ~5.7" taller than the n55 radiator - this allows the S55's radiator to get clean flow from the large lower opening of the bumper vs. the short n55 radiator which has to get most of its flow from the signifcantly smaller kidney grilles. So on the S55 you get more surface area + cleaner air flow which compenstates for its air to water radiator sitting infront of it. With the n55 you get a short radiator that already loses the flow from the bottom opening, and now you add an intercooler that covers nearly 40% of it - yeah that totally wont affect cooling at all.....

And you said the n55 radiator isn't undersized...

Like I said before the coolant cooling issue on the n55 is real... and don't forget, over heating water temps blows head gaskets and warps the block and head. High iat's will not be remotely as detrimental if you are running high enough octane and especially ethanol which offers evaporative cooling in the cylinder.

The S55's radiator's frontal area is almost entirely blocked by the intercooler and the DCT cooler. Look at the schematics again, the bottom area is the DCT cooler. Now look at this picture. The major advantage to the S55 radiator is basically size.

[ThreeStripes]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

For the record, this car is a season winning GT1 car.

Any mention of any other thermal management strategies like heat shielding and or hood venting? I know a CS hood isn’t panacea but I’m curious if they mentioned thermal management on the hot side at all.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ThreeStripes

Any mention of any other thermal management strategies like heat shielding and or hood venting? I know a CS hood isn’t panacea but I’m curious if they mentioned thermal management on the hot side at all.

Not much of anything worth mentioning to be honest, they didn’t mention it to me - just NACA ducts basically.

We talked about my build and some stuff they did - I showed them my Intercooler which it seems like they never tested, the MILVS and front Mount intake.

Still waiting for a follow up from another shop.

[AmuroRay]

I wonder if they plan on doing a diagonally mounted ER style Intercooler (non stepped) to place a larger radiator core behind it?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I'm not sure you think Tyspeed is the definitive source on what's best and correct. Again, he's sponsored by a brand who is using him as a tester for their parts that don't work well.



No, I'm not. I'm in disagreement on what's causing the problem, which I'm sure I articulated many times before.



Is he still running the CSF? If so, that's literally 90% of the issue. I've said this before - CSF is garbage, and I could eyeball it and tell despite your protests to the contrary:


Guess the best drivers are engineers. right?




I actually called a few shops last week, and I don't mean tuners, I mean actual race cars.

What I was told was - Maybe the intercooler could be an issue, but the radiator was a BIG upgrade. CSF was referred to as "Junk" and "trash" and that their radiator(s) were worse than stock and even caused normal cars to overheat.

I was told by one shop they use a ER oil cooler, PWR Radiator, Mishimoto intercooler, M4 Aux radiator and EFR8374 - 505whp and running at 40mins per race with ZERO cooling issues. Per our conversation, the radiator was a HUGE upgrade (with the CSF being a downgrade) PWR's radiator was a big help on all the cars, including their E46 race car. They were complimentary of D088, saying they are good alternatives (for the Aux?), and ER's oil cooler was praised as well.

We discussed the intercooler, and their concern was mostly pressure drop (from what they tested) and area flow. It was suggested to get the PWR radiator first - then change the intercooler.
I inquired about the radiator, but it looks like it was maybe a one off - PWR doesn't have it on their page. They told me they had CSF make theirs after a PWR gave them the information - (it was again reiterated that CSF is no good) Side note - they are planning on making their own intercooler with PWR.

They also run no thermostat and the rest of the cooling system is basically unchanged (stock exchanger is still in place) stock ducting/shrouds/fans/ areo/etc.

For the record, this car is a season winning GT1 car.

1) Tyspeed has actually done real testing with various parts ON TRACK that are not factory OEM on the m2 (the same goes for ZM2) and that's what makes his testing so valueable.

Despite being sponsored by CSF he never once kept information from the community or lied about the parts he was using to make CSF look better. He was open and clear from day one that the CSF radiator was insufficent. He was clear he had to retrofit dual S55 aux radiators, add an aux water pump, switch to a brushless water pump and add water sprayers + meth injection to control his temperature problems. He could have lied and said "nope the CSF radiators solved all overheating problems" but he didn't. There's a difference between being sponsored but truthful, vs. just lying the entire time. Tyspeed never covered anything up.


2) You said it was oil and not coolant. That's the issue.


3) He sold his m2. IIRC he is tracking an e9x m3 now. But before he sold it, it was still on CSF's race spec radiator (needed an ac delete), csf boss oil cooler, s55 aux radiators X2, brushless water pump, aux water pump, water methanol injection + sprayers for the intercooler and radiators. That's what controlled the temps even on pikes peak.


I never said CSF was the best, I was more meh about them more than anything. I just said tyspeed went to the extremes to solve a cooling issue you said never existed, and that the aux water pump did nothing and made issues worse.


4) He is a mechanic first and foremost, a damn good one at that. What makes him good is his ability to test on the track, bring high quality data logged from expensive canbus logging equipment paired to track video. Then solve problems by actually testing various solutions on the same car, driven on the same track by the same guy in similar conditions. This gives us a control, and a fairly good comparison to see if stuff works. Not just comparing multiple different cars driven by different people with different mods on different tracks and trying to draw a conclusion....


BTW you know he wind tunnel tested his car with aj hartman aero right? They also tested engine bay extraction with the hood vents in a wind tunnel. So to say they didn't do everything possible on the m2 is insane.


5) PWR doesn't make radiators for the N55 as far as im aware.

Like I said before, I was always worried about the radiators being an issue and was skeptical about csf's "upgrade". However, non CSF cars like og shark running a full d088 cooling package still over heated. So at this point it comes down to radiator size more than anything. Sure the CSF radiator might be total trash and perform worse than stock, but if alternatives like D088 which seems to make way better parts still doesn't help it is down to the size of the radiator like I kept saying over and over again, the radiator on the n55 is too small.


I looked at the ER oil cooler and imo I am not impressed. The core looks like a cheap standard single pass oil cooler you can buy on ebay mounted to a cheap bracket, the hoses are a bit short too and rub on the valve cover from what I have seen. The D088 looks alot higher quality from the end tanks, to the fittings, and the mounting. The core looks to be higher quality as well from the oil tubes to the fin pack.



Who is this shop exactly? And what car are they running, I want to see their build because I have extreme doubts about everything you just described because they are a season winning Gt1 car with stock aero, stock cooling, stock ducting, running 505 whp. Im skeptical of what this shop is saying without any proof of their setup, there is no way a drop in custom radiator will give that much cooling potential without a massive bump in surface area. Even with a super dense fin pack there is no way it will be able to provide that much more cooling, because mass flow through the radiator will suffer and without extraction from the engine bay with venting that will be even worse.

Yeah I just don't buy it without any proof whatsoever, there's no way a drop in fitment radiator and oil cooler + an s55 aux radiator will be able to cool 505 whp for 40 mins of tracking at a pace that will win a championship. Og shark with a full d088 cooling setup overheated on bm3 stage 2... Thats ~400 whp or less.

Now that's just my doubts on cooling, my next major doubts even more than cooling is aero. There's no way in hell a stock aero car is winning a gt1 championship. You simply will not have the traction required to corner fast enough to keep up with the track prepped cars, and you won't be able to put down 505 whp...

The only similar car I know of running similar mods (mishimoto intercooler etc) doing gt1 is RMP's m235ir, and that thing is not even close to stock. Now here's the thing, rmp also just won the gt1 championship so either this shop you're talking about is rmp and if so someone told you a whole bunch of garbage because their gt1 winning m235ir is no where near close to stock in anyways shape or form - starting with the fact it's an m235ir and following up with the mods on it deviate it so far from an m235ir it won't even apply to our discussion here. If the shop you're talking about isn't rmp then I really dont believe a single word they told you, because there's no way a car you described won the gt1 championship when rmp won it (so yeah that pretty much eliminated that talking point) and rmp's car looks like a monster vs. what you described to be a stock car....... It's funny you call doubts to everything tyspeed has done when he's published clear cut data and has been transparent, but you're quick to hold thos unknown shop up to be the gold standard without a single shred of proof....



Btw it sounds like you finally accept there's a cooling issue with coolant - and that's been the major point of debate.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I have claimed that the race intercooler is 3" taller than a regular STEPPED intercooler. I even did so in this very thread:

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=13

Next, I'll concede. The S55 radiator is a LOT larger - but my intercooler still allows almost 60% of the frontal area to be uncovered. The S55 is less than 15%
(I posted a picture of my intercooler underneath the grills and bumper.)




The S55's radiator's frontal area is almost entirely blocked by the intercooler and the DCT cooler. Look at the schematics again, the bottom area is the DCT cooler. Now look at this picture. The major advantage to the S55 radiator is basically size.

The here's the difference, the S55 has a large lower section missing on the n55 that gets direct air flow from the lower bumper opening that the n55 intercooler sits in. That's a massive difference in cooling just by better air flow. The n55 radiator gets all of its air from the kidney grilles and whatever the radiator fan can pull through from the lower half. Now this is where the issue comes in with a large intercooler covering nearly 40% of the bottom half of the raditor. This section already has poor air flow, having an intercooler covering it and dumping hot air into it will never help it in terms of cooling and since the intercooler is pressed up tight against it, that will lower mass flow through the radiator due to the added resistance.


So no it isn't just size alone - which in an of itself is a massive benefit for thermal supression, it is better flow through the radiator because the lower half actually recieves air from the lower bumper opening.