[XutvJet]

I wish we could just come to an understanding that:

1) Most every aftermarket intercooler made by a reputable company will be an improvement over stock.

2) The "best" IC and design is dependent on the car's use, climate, and mods.

3) There will ALWAYS be compromises and trade-offs with aftermarket mods, especially ICs.

4) Race car parts (i.e., huge ICs in this instance) rarely work well for street driven vehicles. See bullet #3.

[Dasnub]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

No Mike, it's not my opinion. 12 Fins an inch is literally one of the lowest of any F series intercooler on the market. The AA and CTS are about 14-16, the, VRSF are 16/in. ER 18, Wagner 18+
I can go back and find post comparing a HD fin pack vs a low density finpack but I honestly do not care this much. I'm not selling anything, I've more than proved everything I've said with Data logs in this very thread.

I'm giving people simple tools to use to compare intercoolers: I referenced frontal area, weight and fin density - and you referenced___________
Of course Marketing and vendors don't want anyone to compare products, so you'll make it seem like it's impossible to have a comparison of any part, as if black magic Fudgery that no one can understand.
He asked, I gave him options, not a marketing pitch.

Mike is well respected on this board beyond a marketing pitch. And again, you’re comparing the fin density of a stage 1 application intercooler to stage 2 and beyond intercoolers. I haven’t heard Mike say the MAD is the best a single time- only that it’s a good fit in the right application.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

No Mike, it's not my opinion. 12 Fins an inch is literally one of the lowest of any F series intercooler on the market. The AA and CTS are about 14-16, the, VRSF are 16/in. ER 18, Wagner 18+
I can go back and find post comparing a HD fin pack vs a low density finpack but I honestly do not care this much. I'm not selling anything, I've more than proved everything I've said with Data logs in this very thread.

I'm giving people simple tools to use to compare intercoolers: I referenced frontal area, weight and fin density - and you referenced___________
Of course Marketing and vendors don't want anyone to compare products, so you'll make it seem like it's impossible to have a comparison of any part, as if black magic Fudgery that no one can understand.
He asked, I gave him options, not a marketing pitch.

Saying an intercooler is bad because it's got a lower fin density, is your opinion. To compare intercoolers, you need to check all data including weight, pressure airdrop, and recovery. Which I encourage since I sell these intercoolers as well and i make a lot more money by selling the more expensive parts

As mentioned numerous times, no one is telling you not to recommend an intercooler. But you went beyond that to take down another intercooler that you don't have enough data on (you even took fin density from another intercooler to make a judgment on the race one)

Lastly, you went from a discussion about car parts to a personal attack, that's never a good sign

To simplify it for you since you keep missing the point
1- you recommended a few different intercoolers based on the data and research you made, that's awesome and I applaud you for taking the time to gather the data
2- you took down the 7" MAD intercooler because you are not happy with the fin density of the MAD 5" without any data from either intercooler, which is not awesome.
3- Im asking you to hold your judgment until there is data (do not recommend the intercooler till then, but don't say it's shit either). You are a reasonable guy and you keep talking about data and you were the first to acknowledge that you have no data on this intercooler. I don't understand why we cannot agree on this point

Note: You have a had pages of arguments with other forum users, mostly about the Wagner intercooler. Many people made fun of your self-proclaimed title "the intercooler guy" and made accusations about your biases. I never took part in that and i only discussed data. I ask you to do the same, don't make accusation to ruin my reputation because you don't like my opinion

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Saying an intercooler is bad because it's got a lower fin density, is your opinion. To compare intercoolers, you need to check all data including weight, pressure airdrop, and recovery. Which I encourage since I sell these intercoolers as well and i make a lot more money by selling the more expensive parts

As mentioned numerous times, no one is telling you not to recommend an intercooler. But you went beyond that to take down another intercooler that you don't have enough data on (you even took fin density from another intercooler to make a judgment on the race one)

Lastly, you went from a discussion about car parts to a personal attack, that's never a good sign

To simplify it for you since you keep missing the point
1- you recommended a few different intercoolers based on the data and research you made, that's awesome and I applaud you for taking the time to gather the data
2- you took down the 7" MAD intercooler because you are not happy with the fin density of the MAD 5" without any data from either intercooler, which is not awesome.
3- Im asking you to hold your judgment until there is data (do not recommend the intercooler till then, but don't say it's shit either). You are a reasonable guy and you keep talking about data and you were the first to acknowledge that you have no data on this intercooler. I don't understand why we cannot agree on this point

Note: You have a had pages of arguments with other forum users, mostly about the Wagner intercooler. Many people made fun of your self-proclaimed title "the intercooler guy" and made accusations about your biases. I never took part in that and i only discussed data. I ask you to do the same, don't make accusation to ruin my reputation because you don't like my opinion

That’s fair, Mike.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

That’s fair, Mike.

On another note, keep up the good work

[Dasnub]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I wish we could just come to an understanding that:

1) Most every aftermarket intercooler made by a reputable company will be an improvement over stock.

2) The "best" IC and design is dependent on the car's use, climate, and mods.

3) There will ALWAYS be compromises and trade-offs with aftermarket mod, especially ICs.

4) Race car parts (i.e., huge ICs in this instance) rarely work well for street driven vehicles. See bullet #3.

Amen.

[Dasnub]

One additional note on fin density- the number of fins measured in a single one-inch section really has nothing to do with how many fins are located across the entire intercooler- and that coverage area is truthfully what matters. A 12” tall IC is likely to have many more total fins at a 12 fin/inch density than a 5” tall IC with 20 fin/inch density. So, simple photos with a tape measure showing comparisons really don’t mean much of anything. They are only one piece of the puzzle that don’t tell you any information about cooling ability on their own. There’s not even anything to suggest that lower fin counts are cheaper to produce (and thus lower quality) because we have some very budget brands like VRSF producing high fin counts.

At the end of the day these are rather unsophisticated pieces of metal with no electronics or moving parts. They have their differences but agonizing over which intercooler to choose- as this thread might suggest you should- is a rather large waste of time unless you’re attempting to push the car to its absolute limits. And none of the data anyone can post here is scientifically usable or comparable in any way. Unless you are using the same car, at the same temperature, at the same altitude, on the same day, etc etc etc, you simply don’t have a controlled experiment. “Data” sounds good on paper but is irrelevant if it’s incomplete. Dynos give us data too, but often give wildly different results even on the same car.

The best thing you can do is buy the right size IC for your application that is in your budget, stick it in your car, and see how it goes.

[vrooooom]

the other aspect is the ease of installation or installation without any modification. That's also important for many of us here I believe.

[cecaa850]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I wish we could just come to an understanding that:

1) Most every aftermarket intercooler made by a reputable company will be an improvement over stock.

Some companies are more reputable than others.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by cecaa850

Some companies are more reputable than others.

Yep, and most aftermarket companies cannot make their parts fit like stock. I've learned that over 25+ years of modding cars. You often get what you pay for. I hold fitment, engineering, and company reputation in much higher regard than the cost of the part. I'm willing to pay more for quality. When I was younger and had way less money, I thought differently.

I research the hell out of any mod I do to my car and weigh the positives and negatives. I live by trust, but verify and don't consider only one source of information.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

And none of the data anyone can post here is scientifically usable or comparable in any way. Unless you are using the same car, at the same temperature, at the same altitude, on the same day, etc etc etc, you simply don’t have a controlled experiment. “Data” sounds good on paper but is irrelevant if it’s incomplete. Dynos give us data too, but often give wildly different results even on the same car.

The best thing you can do is buy the right size IC for your application that is in your budget, stick it in your car, and see how it goes.

YES to all of this! Well said.

[Dj_Quik]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

YES to all of this! Well said.

Exactly what i said in this thread before

[Dasnub]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Whoa, you're kinda local to me! Are you doing this?

https://www.tracknightinamerica.com/...raceway-june-3

I'll echo my statements from my last post on this -

In order of best -

Wagner Evo 3
Pros - biggest frontal area (13”), larger diameter inlets, comes with everything including a new charge pipe, reportedly no loss in throttle response.
Cons - Weight (also a good thing), cost, questionable Fit and finish

VRSF Race
Pros - large frontal area (11”), great fin density, cost
Cons - Weight (also a good thing), some people reported a softer throttle response, VRSF quality is just ok

ER
Pros - Lightest of the three, large frontal area (11”), High fin density, no loss in throttle response, fit and finish
Cons - cost is high, but cheaper than the Wagner, lighter weight means less thermal capacity.

Don't bother with anything else, including the MAD unit. It looks to have one of the lowest fin counts of any of these units here (12 fins/in vs 18-20 fins/inch)

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=43
versus
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...02&postcount=1

Edit: All these intercoolers will likely require to to remove the bumper, and require some modification to the front chassis brace - it's usually spacers or additional brackets.

The ER intercooler has its own challenges, btw. Some very good points made in this thread- namely that high fin densities require higher airflow than lower ones, and can heat soak worse than the stock IC in low speed, street driving conditions. Just more proof that there is no universal perfect solution that fits every application.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1493907

[Dasnub]

Some great detail on intercooler design and what makes them most effective:

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...rp-intercooler

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

The ER intercooler has its own challenges, btw. Some very good points made in this thread- namely that high fin densities require higher airflow than lower ones, and can heat soak worse than the stock IC in low speed, street driving conditions. Just more proof that there is no universal perfect solution that fits every application.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1493907

Yep.

What I find so amusing is that people expect an aftermarket IC to work better during normal cruising, on the highway, and bumper to bumper traffic. I think what most will find is that they aren't and in some cases, slight worse than stock, especially bar and plate ICs once they're heated up.

Also, when you're off throttle or barely on the throttle, there isn't much air moving through the IC. All aftermarket ICs are 100% metal and most all aftermarket charge pipes are too. That stagnant air is basically stuck in a warm oven. Once you give it throttle, the IATs will drop by a fair amount.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

The ER intercooler has its own challenges, btw. Some very good points made in this thread- namely that high fin densities require higher airflow than lower ones, and can heat soak worse than the stock IC in low speed, street driving conditions. Just more proof that there is no universal perfect solution that fits every application.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1493907

All that means is that it carries more thermal mass - but as noted, it's superior surface area (from frontal size and fin density) allow it to decrease temperatures quicker.

You're going to really argue that higher ambient temps are more desirable than absolute IAT control? Notice I haven't really responded back to you or most of the responses here, because I mostly agree with everything, event criticisms of me- but I think this one misses the mark.

Edit - this is also shown on ER's advertised log

http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/si...serialNumber=1

[Dasnub]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

All that means is that it carries more thermal mass - but as noted, it's superior surface area (from frontal size and fin density) allow it to decrease temperatures quicker.

You're going to really argue that higher ambient temps are more desirable than absolute IAT control? Notice I haven't really responded back to you or most of the responses here, because I mostly agree with everything, event criticisms of me- but I think this one misses the mark.

Edit - this is also shown on ER's advertised log

http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/si...serialNumber=1

I wouldn’t take it as a criticism or even me arguing that it’s not a great intercooler. Just that if you do happen to be the driver who spends most of their time in traffic- only to do some limited sprints here and there- it might not be the choice for you as you’re paying a lot for a unit that is really designed to be excellent on track (where it’s getting a lot of airflow.)

None of these intercoolers are perfect for every application so I think it’s worth mentioning to people reading that they need to make sure their needs align with the person giving a particular recommendation.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

I wouldn’t take it as a criticism or even me arguing that it’s not a great intercooler. Just that if you do happen to be the driver who spends most of their time in traffic- only to do some limited sprints here and there- it might not be the choice for you as you’re paying a lot for a unit that is really designed to be excellent on track (where it’s getting a lot of airflow.)

None of these intercoolers are perfect for every application so I think it’s worth mentioning to people reading that they need to make sure their needs align with the person giving a particular recommendation.

I would just point out if you drive in stop and go and never drive your car hard at all, why bother upgrading in the first place?

I understand what is being said, but I don't think the higher initial temps mean much when as soon as you want to utilize the all of your car's power, it's more accessible than a smaller core. You literally give up nothing and have more head room (especially for track, or long pulls) than you otherwise would have with something like a Evo 2 (which costs about the same amount)

[Dasnub]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I would just point out if you drive in stop and go and never drive your car hard at all, why bother upgrading in the first place?

I understand what is being said, but I don't think the higher initial temps mean much when as soon as you want to utilize the all of your car's power, it's more accessible than a smaller core. You literally give up nothing and have more head room (especially for track, or long pulls) than you otherwise would have with something like a Evo 2 (which costs about the same amount)

I don’t think it has to be as black and white as 100% stop and go. If you daily drive the car for 95% if its life but still want to run a tune, an intercooler upgrade makes sense.

I’m not necessarily here to advocate for the Evo- most of the information I’ve found on tube and fin intercoolers is that they’re chosen by most OEMs because they’re cheaper to produce, lighter (fuel economy,) and recover faster- which makes sense in a daily driven car with a factory tune on it. It wasn’t my choice because of its price to performance proposition. But neither was something like the ER, which is total overkill for my particular application (very rare tracking, short bursts of spirited driving.) I’m just looking to run a basic stage 1 93 tune because close to stock reliability is important to me driving the car 35k miles a year for work.

[vrooooom]

Most of us daily drive our M2 I think. At least it’s not a track car primarily.

[AmuroRay]

I think there is a lot to be said on that a smaller core (especially for the cost) are just not as good of an investment compared to a larger core.

I've never recommended (or would recommend) VRSF Race or Evo 3 or the like for a stock or near stock car for daily driving. But I will continue to recommend "STAGE 2" intercooler. They typically cost about the same, and if your like me living in a hot region, that extra headroom is very helpful.

[RobA]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Whoa, you're kinda local to me! Are you doing this?

https://www.tracknightinamerica.com/...raceway-june-3

I'll echo my statements from my last post on this -

In order of best -

Wagner Evo 3
Pros - biggest frontal area (13”), larger diameter inlets, comes with everything including a new charge pipe, reportedly no loss in throttle response.
Cons - Weight (also a good thing), cost, questionable Fit and finish

VRSF Race
Pros - large frontal area (11”), great fin density, cost
Cons - Weight (also a good thing), some people reported a softer throttle response, VRSF quality is just ok

ER
Pros - Lightest of the three, large frontal area (11”), High fin density, no loss in throttle response, fit and finish
Cons - cost is high, but cheaper than the Wagner, lighter weight means less thermal capacity.

Don't bother with anything else, including the MAD unit. It looks to have one of the lowest fin counts of any of these units here (12 fins/in vs 18-20 fins/inch)

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=43
versus
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...02&postcount=1

Edit: All these intercoolers will likely require to to remove the bumper, and require some modification to the front chassis brace - it's usually spacers or additional brackets.

Thanks, Ray. After going through the process of purchasing track wheels and finding that some of the sizes that people had "no problem" fitting on their car were not easy to fit at all, I'm just a little worried about pulling the trigger on a large intercooler, taking it to my shop, and finding out that its way harder to get installed than i anticipated.

I'm not doing that track night event but I have been thinking about trying an SCCA event. I've only done NASA events, but that's just because the people that got me into tracking the car were NASA folks.