[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Dj_Quik

Stage 2 definitely generates a lot more heat. And no, if youre in stop and go traffic you cannot go full throttle right away. I think a less dense intercooler may help you cool faster but ultimate heat capacity will be less. The heavier intercoolers are well suited for track use.

This isn't true, but you're on the right path.

[Dj_Quik]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

This isn't true, but you're on the right path.

Oh really? Tell me why

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Dj_Quik

Oh really? Tell me why

The idea that a "smaller" core will cool down quicker is based on concept of thermal inertia. But typically larger cores will have more surface area and allow them to cool down as good or better.

I say this, but I haven't found a log of one intercooler type "cooling down" quicker than another.

I have a general idea how it can be calculated (I'm not an engineer) but we are talking the difference of 5lbs in some cases, and then there is the variable of temperature, and the surface area, etc. In the end, I just haven't really seen anything to substantiate this as a factor in IC design - it sounds like marketing.

[Dasnub]

I won’t claim to know the real world results of all of these products under controlled conditions (clearly, none of us do because running such a shootout is impossible.) Anyone making any claim in any direction that is black and white is probably- at best— only right some of the time. There are simply way too many variables to just say “bigger is better” or “bar and tube is better,” etc. The materials used have an impact. The internal airflow characteristics have an impact. Fin density has an impact. Weight has an impact.

If you’re looking for a definitive answer, you’re going to be disappointed. Logs are a bit of fools gold because again, they aren’t run in a controlled setting- same car, same day, same temperature, same altitude, same driver, same road, etc etc etc. A log is a tool to verify whether YOUR intercooler is performing the way YOU need it to and nothing else.

My suggestion is to buy a product with good support and a record of solid build quality/warranty/fitment from a reputable dealer who knows BMWs. You might not make the perfect choice, but you’re unlikely to make a BAD one.

[vrooooom]

Calling on pal, mount that ER intercooler already. Tell us how that fits. Myb compare that supplier bracket if it’s really needed. Quite teasing us. Has anyone installed these on the M2 F87?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

I won’t claim to know the real world results of all of these products under controlled conditions (clearly, none of us do because running such a shootout is impossible.) Anyone making any claim in any direction that is black and white is probably- at best— only right some of the time. There are simply way too many variables to just say “bigger is better” or “bar and tube is better,” etc. The materials used have an impact. The internal airflow characteristics have an impact. Fin density has an impact. Weight has an impact.

If you’re looking for a definitive answer, you’re going to be disappointed. Logs are a bit of fools gold because again, they aren’t run in a controlled setting- same car, same day, same temperature, same altitude, same driver, same road, etc etc etc. A log is a tool to verify whether YOUR intercooler is performing the way YOU need it to and nothing else.

My suggestion is to buy a product with good support and a record of solid build quality/warranty/fitment from a reputable dealer who knows BMWs. You might not make the perfect choice, but you’re unlikely to make a BAD one.

This is literally the worst advice I’ve seen.
‘Trust vendors and marketing guys, don’t do any of your own research’

This isn’t impossible for people to understand- there is no magic. You make baseless claims ‘we don’t have any direct comparisons’ and ‘the data just isn’t conclusive!’ Just reek of ignorance and someone who doesn’t care to actually educate themselves

For everyone else, I offer you the ability to make the best decisions for yourself based on the information available. Do you know which intercoolers cause lag on a stock or near stock car? Almost none of them. The Wagner Evo 3 is said to feel just as sharp throttle wise as substantially smaller Evo 2.

Did you know there are multiple tests that show the Evo 2 (tube and fin) does not cool better or cool down quicker than a ‘bar and plate’ intercooler, including Wagner’s own press material?

Did you know that some intercoolers aren’t suited for heavy duty street use much less even less seeing any track? How would you know? Are you just willing to take someone’s opinion on a matter without anything substantive to back it up?

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

This is literally the worst advice I’ve seen.
‘Trust vendors and marketing guys, don’t do any of your own research’

This isn’t impossible for people to understand- there is no magic. You make baseless claims ‘we don’t have any direct comparisons’ and ‘the data just isn’t conclusive!’ Just reek of ignorance and someone who doesn’t care to actually educate themselves

For everyone else, I offer you the ability to make the best decisions for yourself based on the information available. Do you know which intercoolers cause lag on a stock or near stock car? Almost none of them. The Wagner Evo 3 is said to feel just as sharp throttle wise as substantially smaller Evo 2.

Did you know there are multiple tests that show the Evo 2 (tube and fin) does not cool better or cool down quicker than a ‘bar and plate’ intercooler, including Wagner’s own press material?

Did you know that some intercoolers aren’t suited for heavy duty street use much less even less seeing any track? How would you know? Are you just willing to take someone’s opinion on a matter without anything substantive to back it up?

"Feel" is also subjective. Better to use real data.

[XutvJet]

Last night it was 50 degrees. My M235 had been sitting in a parking lot for 4 hours. The IAT was 55 degrees at start. I started driving and got on the highway and drove on 45mph streets as well. IATs hovered 3 to 5 degrees over ambient the entire time (30 minutes driving) and would drop to ambient once giving it throttle.

The IC is a Wagner Evo Comp 1. A "paper weight" per Amuro Ray.

[Dj_Quik]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

This is literally the worst advice I’ve seen.
‘Trust vendors and marketing guys, don’t do any of your own research’

This isn’t impossible for people to understand- there is no magic. You make baseless claims ‘we don’t have any direct comparisons’ and ‘the data just isn’t conclusive!’ Just reek of ignorance and someone who doesn’t care to actually educate themselves

For everyone else, I offer you the ability to make the best decisions for yourself based on the information available. Do you know which intercoolers cause lag on a stock or near stock car? Almost none of them. The Wagner Evo 3 is said to feel just as sharp throttle wise as substantially smaller Evo 2.

Did you know there are multiple tests that show the Evo 2 (tube and fin) does not cool better or cool down quicker than a ‘bar and plate’ intercooler, including Wagner’s own press material?

Did you know that some intercoolers aren’t suited for heavy duty street use much less even less seeing any track? How would you know? Are you just willing to take someone’s opinion on a matter without anything substantive to back it up?

But if that decision happens to be on the contrary to yours, you jump on em like an angry cheetah. Like someone already said, what you think may work for you or other people may not work for other people and their setups. Better to make a suggestion and just leave it at that. And im not attacking you at all, im just sharing an observation.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Dj_Quik

But if that decision happens to be on the contrary to yours, you jump on em like an angry cheetah. Like someone already said, what you think may work for you or other people may not work for other people and their setups. Better to make a suggestion and just leave it at that. And im not attacking you at all, im just sharing an observation.

If I tell you:

This intercooler cools better, has no turbo lag, and costs less - I provide you with the logs which those statements are based, and then someone else comes along and says

‘I dIsAgReE’
They provide nothing but their own statements, no logs and just hand wave all facts aside, what would you say?

I’m trying to ensure people make the best choice, but it’s not always the choice I would make. I’m not even claiming to be ‘always right’


Someone else bought a CSF over a VRSF. I understand why, and didnÂ’t chastise them for their choice. For them, having phone support and not having to space out the front support means more than absolute performance. That’s fine.

Someone saying that a core that weighs less (less thermal capacity) has less fin density (less surface area) is more expensive (by $200+) offers no objective benefits - is just as good as another less expensive option- not only is that objectively false, and it’s absolutely intentionally misleading.

Originally Posted by @[LYTSOUT

(contact:190725)]
Fit and Finish: Literally perfect. It'd be hard to imagine anything better.

Performance: Perfect. Zero increased turbo lag. Interestingly, even before flashing to Stage 2, my butt dyno suggested more throttle response and top end. But the logs told a much more quantitative and reassuring story. For sake of simplicity, I'll distill the logs down to just the IATs in pulls from 2k in 3rd through redline in 4th...

Ambient Temp - Hardware - Tune - IAT 2k in 3rd - IAT top of 3rd - IAT top of 4th - (IAT delta from bottom of 3rd to top of 4th)
72F - Stock - OEM - 90F - 112F - 117F (+27F)
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ed4...729b6c7129048e

72F - Stock - Stage 1 - 86F - 129F - 140F (+54F)
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ed3...90c66237c1d0f8

82F - VRSF 6.5" - OEM - 104F - 95F - 100F (-4F)
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5eda...729b0f7178b9f1

82F - VRSF 6.5" - Stage 1 - 101F - 97F - 109F (+8F)
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5eda...90c634ff221de4

79F - VRSF 6.5" - Stage 2 - 92F - 92F (0F) ...*there was too much traffic to get into fourth gear so a third gear pull was the best I could do*
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f4f...90c61f061ddbc8

Review the log, find the turbo lag.


I’m not ever trying to claim VRSF makes the best IC, or that it’s the ONLY IC that can and should be purchased. I’m not saying their quality and customer support is the best.

I am saying that reasons people have given through word of mouth have no factual basis.

Anyhow, thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

[vrooooom]

People do have their preferences but to be honest I would rather have someone back up claims than just leaving it to “sales & marketing”. I would qualify as one of those that don’t know anything about logs. Nor am I inclined to monitor them more than just to enjoy the car but I am learning quite a bit. I didn’t even know what IAT was before.

I for one would not leave my decision to just the absolute cooling capacity. Of course it starts with that but if it requires complicated installation procedures requiring modifications on fit, requiring me to communicate via a process that’s slow especially if I’m halfway across the world which would mean each email would entail a minimum of a day. Or worst quality issue that would be require a return...That becomes unacceptable.

I don’t have the numbers to prove but I was thinking and agree that the surface area in front of the vehicle would count the most for its cooling capacity especially once the vehicle is in motion. More so than the depth (double layer) thicker 6.5” whatever they call it. I wanted to get the ER due to this (plus it’s lighter) and ready to pay more but when I heard that it’ll hit the brace and require changing that out too.... no deal. I also don’t understand why they don’t make this obvious on their website. Correct it.... or state it on the product. Don’t leave that for people to just be surprised that they have an extra brace shipped to them.

In the start, I thought of getting the VRSF bec it is cheaper and as Armuro would imply, why pay more when this one would give you better performance, but the question of it having fitment issues bother me. I don’t understand why this isn’t made clear. This is not a new product. Our M2 is 3 yrs old. I would think they should be able to outright say, yes guarantee plug-play. No cutting. No added spacers and the like. Why not? It’s no longer bleeding edge tech as tech people would say.

So now I’m back to CSF and the Active Autowerke FMIC as my choice.

We’re all at the mercy of counting the density of fins and the likes bec there’s no claimed cooling capability. No standard like for example an air conditioner that would at least have some specs ie. btu/hr or btu/amp.

I was excited to see that head-head challenged of VRSF vs CSF but I guess for some reason VRSF just went silent on its claim. If you can claim, have the balls to back it up. With real independent numbers. Armuro thinks VR would have for sure win it.... and I don’t have any opinion, just that let’s see the challenge happen. Too bad it didn’t.

Cheers!

[Dasnub]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

This is literally the worst advice I’ve seen.
‘Trust vendors and marketing guys, don’t do any of your own research’

This isn’t impossible for people to understand- there is no magic. You make baseless claims ‘we don’t have any direct comparisons’ and ‘the data just isn’t conclusive!’ Just reek of ignorance and someone who doesn’t care to actually educate themselves

For everyone else, I offer you the ability to make the best decisions for yourself based on the information available. Do you know which intercoolers cause lag on a stock or near stock car? Almost none of them. The Wagner Evo 3 is said to feel just as sharp throttle wise as substantially smaller Evo 2.

Did you know there are multiple tests that show the Evo 2 (tube and fin) does not cool better or cool down quicker than a ‘bar and plate’ intercooler, including Wagner’s own press material?

Did you know that some intercoolers aren’t suited for heavy duty street use much less even less seeing any track? How would you know? Are you just willing to take someone’s opinion on a matter without anything substantive to back it up?

I have some bad news for you bud- you come across as an overly self assured asshole and nobody is listening to a thing you say here. But you keep on as king keyboard warrior.

[Dj_Quik]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

I have some bad news for you bud- you come across as an overly self assured asshole and nobody is listening to a thing you say here. But you keep on as king keyboard warrior.

Honestly the only way i will ever believe the self proclaimed “intercooler guy” is if he bought all the intercoolers, installed each and every one in his car and tested them all in similar conditions. Otherwise a little sprinkle of info from someone over there and from someone over here doesnt really do it for me or for a lot of people reading this thread.

[vrooooom]

Sooooo, Active Autowerke (20"x 8.5"x 5.5") or CSF FMIC?

The CSF seems heavier @ 26 lbs but also larger vs 19 lbs on the AA.

Is the build quality about the same for the 2? From photos, the CSF looks better built.

Should I get a charge pipe from the same brand? Would that make it more compatible/ easier to install?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by vrooooom

Sooooo, Active Autowerke (20"x 8.5"x 5.5") or CSF FMIC?

The CSF seems heavier @ 30 lbs but also larger vs 19 of the AA.

Is the build quality about the same for the 2? From photos, the CSF looks better built.

Should I get a charge pipe from the same brand? Would that make it more compatible/ easier to install?

If I HAD to pick between those two, I would pick the CFS, just on weight alone. I believe it's 27lbs.

But I'll wait for everyone else who shouted me down to tell you otherwise.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by vrooooom

Sooooo, Active Autowerke (20"x 8.5"x 5.5") or CSF FMIC?

The CSF seems heavier @ 26 lbs but also larger vs 19 lbs on the AA.

Is the build quality about the same for the 2? From photos, the CSF looks better built.

Should I get a charge pipe from the same brand? Would that make it more compatible/ easier to install?

AA is 5" , CSF is closer to 6"
CSF is a better option for stage 2
AA is the better option for stage 1

AA is easier to install as its the smaller intercooler, its also a direct fit and re-uses all the stock connections.

CSF has a slightly better build quality but they are both built very well

If you are getting the AA FMIC, you might as well get the charge pipe at the same time but most charge pipes will fit these 2 intercoolers. They do not have to be the same brand

[vrooooom]

I’m thinking of getting the FMIC + Charge pipe .... and high flow catted DP. Does it sound like I’m headed for stage 2? BM3 too. I’ve never done “tuning” before. Closest I’ve been was a drop-in KN filter.

Mike, I thought the CSF was PNP also and just had the washers as issues which is now included in the pack.

So the CSF is thicker but it’s also taller right? AA is 8.5” on your website, what’s the CSF’s height?

That’s what worries me a bit that the larger volume FMIC might have perceptible lag.

Got a deal on the catted DP?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by vrooooom

I’m thinking of getting the FMIC + Charge pipe .... and high flow catted DP. Does it sound like I’m headed for stage 2? BM3 too. I’ve never done “tuning” before. Closest I’ve been was a drop-in KN filter.

Mike, I thought the CSF was PNP also and just had the washers as issues which is now included in the pack.

So the CSF is thicker but it’s also taller right? AA is 8.5” on your website, what’s the CSF’s height?

That’s what worries me a bit that the larger volume FMIC might have perceptible lag.

Got a deal on the catted DP?

For all those people who told you to trust someone else, they are awfully quiet on providing recommendations.

I already have a rundown off the AA intercooler earlier in this thread (not recommended) and the CSF (there are better options) Neither are going to add any lag, especially with a stage 2 tune.

Originally Posted by cecaa850

The CSF cooler works great. No lag with a tune and no issues with heat. I do not however track my car.

As for ‘fitment issues’

Originally Posted by cecaa850

I can tell you this for a fact though, the CSF cooler fits with no modifications and no interference issues.

Per Cecaa, the issue with intercoolers on the M2 is the upper portion may contact the bumper. Most of the bigger intercoolers (ER, VRSF Race, Competition, Wagner Evo 3) have a 3” upper depth, so you’ll likely need to take off the bumper cover and use the provided tools or supports to space them out.

With Downpipes, there are two choices - CEL, and no CEL. Don’t pay extra for a (Catted) downpipe that doesn’t offer the guarantee.

No CEL Catted downpipes:
GC Precision
Fabspeed
Active Auto

If you don’t need the CEL guarantee, BUT don’t want the noise, any catted down pipe would work. If you don’t need Catted- any down pipe should work. If you’re capable, so would also recommend the MST inlet and Turbosmart Dv. They’ll provide extra breathing, reported better throttle response, and more power.

[XutvJet]

I have the HJS Euro 6 catted downpipe for 2.5 years and no CEL. Looks OEM too.

[akkando]

Why isn't the ATM intercooler reconvened more?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by akkando

Why isn't the ATM intercooler reconvened more?

They don't advertise, vendors don't carry them and you might have to email them for a sale. That's all I can figure, otherwise I was really impressed with them since I read Farkle's Review

[cecaa850]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

As for ‘fitment issues’



Per Cecaa, the issue with intercoolers on the M2 is the upper portion may contact the bumper. Most of the bigger intercoolers (ER, VRSF Race, Competition, Wagner Evo 3) have a 3” upper depth, so you’ll likely need to take off the bumper cover and use the provided tools or supports to space them out.

I had the larger intercooler. I believe it was the Race one. I was told it was plug and play and basically I didn't know what I was doing. The issue was that it would not fit between the condenser and the front brace. To get it in you needed to force it in using a floor jack and it rubbed the brace and the condenser. It would have rubbed a hole in short order and scarred everything up during the install. I sent them measurements proving there wasn't enough room and they insisted I was wrong. VRSF states they have a lifetime warranty and guarantee fitment yet they wouldn't credit me 100% of my money due to the fact that it had been installed and scratched during the install. Well duh. The whole process took weeks and my vehicle was undriveable the entire time. They would go days without answering my e-mails which is their only method of communication. It was extremely frustrating.