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      01-28-2020, 10:15 PM   #23
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Mid March for timing. I was waiting for the order guide for MY2020 last year to finalize my August euro delivery. That's when the order guide was released last year, and MY2021 will likely be about the same.
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      01-28-2020, 10:27 PM   #24
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I think you have to look at it from a financial perspective--

the F87 M2C has a foot in the grave and certainly has a well-known expiration date.

Why would BMW waste engineering time, talent and money to "upgrade" a carryover model? Those engineers aren't cheap, and BMW will correctly surmise that they're best utilized on the upcoming G series.

I suspect as others have posted, that BMW might do something "easy"-- a different color paint perhaps, or maybe a raid on the M Performance parts bin.

But, I don't see them going out in a blaze of glory. And doing anything semi-complicated (like putting in Active Suspension) would cannibalize sales from the M2CS.

So, I see the 2021 as a carryover with minimal changes at best.

Just my 0.03.

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      01-28-2020, 10:50 PM   #25
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Based on the majority of feedback provided thus far, one could reasonably question why BMW would even release a 21' M2C at all?

I remain interested in finding out what BMW has in store for the 21' M2C. Willing to accept being wrong, I feel BMW might surprise the 'status quo' projections when it comes to the 21' M2C.

To restate, I'm not suggesting 'new' upgrades, rather, inclusion of already available performance parts and/or amenities as standard or optional up-charges. I gave example through Porsche models above.

Again, is the M2CS such a fragile existence that it couldn't survive the M2C having something as simple as adaptive suspension? . . . please do not answer that question.

As suggested by frosty, I'm hoping a March reveal is in the ballpark.

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      01-28-2020, 11:29 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Based on the majority of feedback provided thus far, one could reasonably question why BMW would even release a 21' M2C at all?

I remain interested in finding out what BMW has in store for the 21' M2C. Willing to accept being wrong, I feel BMW might surprise the 'status quo' projections when it comes to the 21' M2C.

To restate, I'm not suggesting 'new' upgrades, rather, inclusion of already available performance parts and/or amenities as standard or optional up-charges. I gave example through Porsche models above. Again, is the M2CS such a fragile existence that it couldn't survive the M2C having something as simple as adaptive suspension? . . . please do not answer that question.

As suggested by frosty, I'm hoping a March reveal is in the ballpark.

///AVM
TLDR: BMW would if they could, but they can't so they don't.

Apologies in advance for the novel length post, but it sounds like you're asking a genuine question, so am trying to provide a genuine answer. If you're really seriously asking why Porsche do it but BMW does not, I have a real answer based on having done quite a bit of work in assembly plants and manufacturers.

I do quite a bit helping Fortune 500 companies set up operations, including assembly plants for auto manufacturers. On this forum, I'm a clown. But in my real life job, I spend a lot of time advising senior execs at big companies.

Porsche can offer 8,000 options because they use a technique called "Lean." Lean manufacturing enables Porsche to flexibly design their assembly plants so that they can easily accommodate "customized" builds. For example, last year, Porsche pointed out that at most they'd only built 2 identical 911's worldwide. What that means is that due to their lean manufacturing prowess, they were able to build ~10k custom cars.

No other auto manufacturer has this capability. As a result, Porsche have the highest margins of any auto manufacturer. Letting people custom design their cars allows Porsche to perfectly "price discriminate" and charge consumers at precisely their maximum willingness to pay.

Again, NO OTHER AUTO MANUFACTURER has this capability. Toyota are arguably even better at lean than Porsche (the technique originated with Toyota) but they have focused their lean capabilities 100% on reliability and quality, as opposed to customization and price discrimination, as Porsche have.

The reason BMW does not give us 8,000 options to customize our cars is not that they don't want to, or that they don't recognize the value in doing so, or that they don't know that we'd be willing to pay out the nose for the privilege... it's that BMW and all the other manufacturers not called Toyota and Porsche still use a version of mass manufacturing. Because BMW has not mastered lean techniques, their plants, their people, their processes are not set up to allow any REAL customization.

There was a huge long thread many moons ago decrying the fact that if you wanted an individual color on the M2C, it would cost you $24k. The reason it costs so much is not that BMW was gouging you for the privilege. It was that the Leipzig plant is not set up to do customization, and it probably costs BMW greatly in excess of $24k to provide individual paint - I think they only did it for Mr. Fux and maybe one or two other VIPs worldwide.

So, with all that said, the Leipzig plant is set up in a very inflexible way, the workers are trained and incentivized with a mass manufacturing culture and mindset, and the processes are turgid. As a result, the 2021 model year will most likely end up with EXACTLY the same features as the 2020 model...

I take that back: they did upgrade the rear lights between the 2019 and 2020 models. Check out the 15 threads on that REVOLUTIONARY change. Whoever can spot the difference between the rear lights on the 2019 versus 2020 models deserves a cookie! But, when you use mass manufacturing techniques like BMW does, that's about all you can profitably do between model years - in other words, next to nil.
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      01-28-2020, 11:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
No other auto manufacturer has this capability.

Again, NO OTHER AUTO MANUFACTURER has this capability.

WoW, that was lengthy; it was like "The Irishman" of internet post

But informative, thanx

You say that no other manufacturing is capable of customization, yet BMW's sister company proudly touts that there are 10 million ways to uniquely order one's vehicle and 'no two Minis are alike.'

I agree with most of what you said but I believe for the sake of simplicity and obviously cost, BMW only allows so many custom options but I'm sure like Mini, if they really felt it was necessary to their projected marketing plan, they could adapt to custom demands.



https://carbuzz.com/news/mini-just-m...ari-or-mclaren


https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/a...language=en_US
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      01-29-2020, 12:18 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
TLDR: BMW would if they could, but they can't so they don't.

Apologies in advance for the novel length post, but it sounds like you're asking a genuine question, so am trying to provide a genuine answer. If you're really seriously asking why Porsche do it but BMW does not, I have a real answer based on having done quite a bit of work in assembly plants and manufacturers.

I do quite a bit helping Fortune 500 companies set up operations, including assembly plants for auto manufacturers. On this forum, I'm a clown. But in my real life job, I spend a lot of time advising senior execs at big companies.

Porsche can offer 8,000 options because they use a technique called "Lean." Lean manufacturing enables Porsche to flexibly design their assembly plants so that they can easily accommodate "customized" builds. For example, last year, Porsche pointed out that at most they'd only built 2 identical 911's worldwide. What that means is that due to their lean manufacturing prowess, they were able to build ~10k custom cars.

No other auto manufacturer has this capability. As a result, Porsche have the highest margins of any auto manufacturer. Letting people custom design their cars allows Porsche to perfectly "price discriminate" and charge consumers at precisely their maximum willingness to pay.

Again, NO OTHER AUTO MANUFACTURER has this capability. Toyota are arguably even better at lean than Porsche (the technique originated with Toyota) but they have focused their lean capabilities 100% on reliability and quality, as opposed to customization and price discrimination, as Porsche have.

The reason BMW does not give us 8,000 options to customize our cars is not that they don't want to, or that they don't recognize the value in doing so, or that they don't know that we'd be willing to pay out the nose for the privilege... it's that BMW and all the other manufacturers not called Toyota and Porsche still use a version of mass manufacturing. Because BMW has not mastered lean techniques, their plants, their people, their processes are not set up to allow any REAL customization.

There was a huge long thread many moons ago decrying the fact that if you wanted an individual color on the M2C, it would cost you $24k. The reason it costs so much is not that BMW was gouging you for the privilege. It was that the Leipzig plant is not set up to do customization, and it probably costs BMW greatly in excess of $24k to provide individual paint - I think they only did it for Mr. Fux and maybe one or two other VIPs worldwide.

So, with all that said, the Leipzig plant is set up in a very inflexible way, the workers are trained and incentivized with a mass manufacturing culture and mindset, and the processes are turgid. As a result, the 2021 model year will most likely end up with EXACTLY the same features as the 2020 model...

I take that back: they did upgrade the rear lights between the 2019 and 2020 models. Check out the 15 threads on that REVOLUTIONARY change. Whoever can spot the difference between the rear lights on the 2019 versus 2020 models deserves a cookie! But, when you use mass manufacturing techniques like BMW does, that's about all you can profitably do between model years - in other words, next to nil.
BMW uses lean. Every major manufacturer does. Search ‘Lean Manufacturing BMW’ and you’ll see that they even have tons of white papers on their own lean implementations. It’s definitely not unique to Porsche and Toyota. Plus, Toyota and BMW just jointly produced the Z4/Supra, I’m sure it’s lean manufacturing all around.

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      01-29-2020, 12:34 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
WoW, that was lengthy; it was like "The Irishman" of internet post

But informative, thanx

You say that no other manufacturing is capable of customization, yet BMW's sister company proudly touts that there are 10 million ways to uniquely order one's vehicle and 'no two Minis are alike.'

I agree with most of what you said but I believe for the sake of simplicity and obviously cost, BMW only allows so many custom options but I'm sure like Mini, if they really felt it was necessary to their projected marketing plan, they could adapt to custom demands.



https://carbuzz.com/news/mini-just-m...ari-or-mclaren


https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/a...language=en_US
The article you quote is from 2017-- times have changed.

For a while (until I came to my senses), I was considering a Mini JCW Countryman-- right up until they consolidated most of their "individual" options into "option packs"-- you want "A"? Well, you have to get "B", "C" and "D" as well.

So, Mini's attempts at "10 million" customizable options? Didn't work out so well for them.

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      01-29-2020, 12:46 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flybigjet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
WoW, that was lengthy; it was like "The Irishman" of internet post

But informative, thanx

You say that no other manufacturing is capable of customization, yet BMW's sister company proudly touts that there are 10 million ways to uniquely order one's vehicle and 'no two Minis are alike.'

I agree with most of what you said but I believe for the sake of simplicity and obviously cost, BMW only allows so many custom options but I'm sure like Mini, if they really felt it was necessary to their projected marketing plan, they could adapt to custom demands.



https://carbuzz.com/news/mini-just-m...ari-or-mclaren


https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/a...language=en_US
The article you quote is from 2017-- times have changed.
Their website still currently allows 'customization,' maybe not as much as before, I haven't kept up much but my point was there are?/were capable multiple options, as Porsche.

I owned a Mini Cooper JCW before, loved it! It handled liked a Go-Kart and fitted anywhere. It's just I've moved on but you will never hear me badmouthing a Mini.
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      01-29-2020, 01:08 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Their website still currently allows 'customization,' maybe not as much as before, I haven't kept up much but my point was there are?/were capable of a certain level of customization.

I owned a Mini Cooper JCW before, loved that, it handled liked a Go-Kart and fitted anywhere. It's just I've moved on but you will never hear me badmouthing a Mini.
They were certainly capable of a "certain level of customization". However, the fact that they've consolidated their option packages so significantly means (to me, at least), that it wasn't cost/revenue effective enough to continue to do so-- they ditched the "infinite customization" and went back to the model that the majority of auto manufacturer's use.

As to the Mini JCW-- I was looking at a Countryman-- which was essentially a detuned 1 Series BMW with different body panels and (yay!) a manual transmission.

Sadly, the MT went away a year or so ago, and along with it went my interest.

Realistically, the JCW (at least on the Countryman) was mostly a marketing strategy-- to get respectable power out of the (detuned) 1-Series motor, you had to chip the car at a minimum and/or get creative with bolt-on's-- which added expense onto a car that was already quite pricy out of the box for what you got.

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      01-29-2020, 01:15 AM   #32
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The M2 is built in Leipzig. You'll be lucky they don't remove anything from the option list for the final year of production lol.

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      01-29-2020, 06:44 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
TLDR: BMW would if they could, but they can't so they don't.

Apologies in advance for the novel length post, but it sounds like you're asking a genuine question, so am trying to provide a genuine answer. If you're really seriously asking why Porsche do it but BMW does not, I have a real answer based on having done quite a bit of work in assembly plants and manufacturers.

I do quite a bit helping Fortune 500 companies set up operations, including assembly plants for auto manufacturers. On this forum, I'm a clown. But in my real life job, I spend a lot of time advising senior execs at big companies.

Porsche can offer 8,000 options because they use a technique called "Lean." Lean manufacturing enables Porsche to flexibly design their assembly plants so that they can easily accommodate "customized" builds. For example, last year, Porsche pointed out that at most they'd only built 2 identical 911's worldwide. What that means is that due to their lean manufacturing prowess, they were able to build ~10k custom cars.

No other auto manufacturer has this capability. As a result, Porsche have the highest margins of any auto manufacturer. Letting people custom design their cars allows Porsche to perfectly "price discriminate" and charge consumers at precisely their maximum willingness to pay.

Again, NO OTHER AUTO MANUFACTURER has this capability. Toyota are arguably even better at lean than Porsche (the technique originated with Toyota) but they have focused their lean capabilities 100% on reliability and quality, as opposed to customization and price discrimination, as Porsche have.

The reason BMW does not give us 8,000 options to customize our cars is not that they don't want to, or that they don't recognize the value in doing so, or that they don't know that we'd be willing to pay out the nose for the privilege... it's that BMW and all the other manufacturers not called Toyota and Porsche still use a version of mass manufacturing. Because BMW has not mastered lean techniques, their plants, their people, their processes are not set up to allow any REAL customization.

There was a huge long thread many moons ago decrying the fact that if you wanted an individual color on the M2C, it would cost you $24k. The reason it costs so much is not that BMW was gouging you for the privilege. It was that the Leipzig plant is not set up to do customization, and it probably costs BMW greatly in excess of $24k to provide individual paint - I think they only did it for Mr. Fux and maybe one or two other VIPs worldwide.

So, with all that said, the Leipzig plant is set up in a very inflexible way, the workers are trained and incentivized with a mass manufacturing culture and mindset, and the processes are turgid. As a result, the 2021 model year will most likely end up with EXACTLY the same features as the 2020 model...

I take that back: they did upgrade the rear lights between the 2019 and 2020 models. Check out the 15 threads on that REVOLUTIONARY change. Whoever can spot the difference between the rear lights on the 2019 versus 2020 models deserves a cookie! But, when you use mass manufacturing techniques like BMW does, that's about all you can profitably do between model years - in other words, next to nil.
CPT

WOW!

That was long . . . but worth every every second to read!

Thank you for that excellent feedback, which explains a great deal . . . including why my reasoning and comparison to Porsche is wrong.

So, it does not appear BMW has the capacity to open up the parts bin cash register to consumers interested in the 21' M2C.

I remian hopeful the 21' upgrades extend past imperceptible taillight modification

Again, nothing that requires new development, but something along the lines of standard ///M performance exhaust. . . what others refer to as a ///M parts bin purge.

Thank you once again

///AVM
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      01-29-2020, 10:18 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill in Marin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
TLDR: BMW would if they could, but they can't so they don't.

Apologies in advance for the novel length post, but it sounds like you're asking a genuine question, so am trying to provide a genuine answer. If you're really seriously asking why Porsche do it but BMW does not, I have a real answer based on having done quite a bit of work in assembly plants and manufacturers.

I do quite a bit helping Fortune 500 companies set up operations, including assembly plants for auto manufacturers. On this forum, I'm a clown. But in my real life job, I spend a lot of time advising senior execs at big companies.

Porsche can offer 8,000 options because they use a technique called "Lean." Lean manufacturing enables Porsche to flexibly design their assembly plants so that they can easily accommodate "customized" builds. For example, last year, Porsche pointed out that at most they'd only built 2 identical 911's worldwide. What that means is that due to their lean manufacturing prowess, they were able to build ~10k custom cars.

No other auto manufacturer has this capability. As a result, Porsche have the highest margins of any auto manufacturer. Letting people custom design their cars allows Porsche to perfectly "price discriminate" and charge consumers at precisely their maximum willingness to pay.

Again, NO OTHER AUTO MANUFACTURER has this capability. Toyota are arguably even better at lean than Porsche (the technique originated with Toyota) but they have focused their lean capabilities 100% on reliability and quality, as opposed to customization and price discrimination, as Porsche have.

The reason BMW does not give us 8,000 options to customize our cars is not that they don't want to, or that they don't recognize the value in doing so, or that they don't know that we'd be willing to pay out the nose for the privilege... it's that BMW and all the other manufacturers not called Toyota and Porsche still use a version of mass manufacturing. Because BMW has not mastered lean techniques, their plants, their people, their processes are not set up to allow any REAL customization.

There was a huge long thread many moons ago decrying the fact that if you wanted an individual color on the M2C, it would cost you $24k. The reason it costs so much is not that BMW was gouging you for the privilege. It was that the Leipzig plant is not set up to do customization, and it probably costs BMW greatly in excess of $24k to provide individual paint - I think they only did it for Mr. Fux and maybe one or two other VIPs worldwide.

So, with all that said, the Leipzig plant is set up in a very inflexible way, the workers are trained and incentivized with a mass manufacturing culture and mindset, and the processes are turgid. As a result, the 2021 model year will most likely end up with EXACTLY the same features as the 2020 model...

I take that back: they did upgrade the rear lights between the 2019 and 2020 models. Check out the 15 threads on that REVOLUTIONARY change. Whoever can spot the difference between the rear lights on the 2019 versus 2020 models deserves a cookie! But, when you use mass manufacturing techniques like BMW does, that's about all you can profitably do between model years - in other words, next to nil.
BMW uses lean. Every major manufacturer does. Search 'Lean Manufacturing BMW' and you'll see that they even have tons of white papers on their own lean implementations. It's definitely not unique to Porsche and Toyota. Plus, Toyota and BMW just jointly produced the Z4/Supra, I'm sure it's lean manufacturing all around.
Yes, apologies. I was using hyperbole to make the larger general point.

All auto manufacturers today use lean to varying degrees of success. But the key point is the "to varying degrees of success" part.

Other auto manufacturers' lean capabilities relative to Toyota and Porsche (and to some extent Honda) is akin to Cptobvious's golf game relative to Tiger Woods's golf game.
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      01-29-2020, 10:56 AM   #35
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If there were gonna be changes, we'd know by now.
It makes no sense to keep messing with an outgoing model. In my opinion.
It's called 21' M2C because it's sold during the 2nd half of 2020 (often times even sooner, 20' M2C started with 03/2020 production).
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      01-29-2020, 11:06 AM   #36
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i wish the 2021 model would have HUD and adaptive suspension.
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      01-29-2020, 11:35 AM   #37
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i wish the 2021 model would have HUD and adaptive suspension.
Do you want the special harness for your unicorn too?

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      01-29-2020, 12:16 PM   #38
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Based on what I am learning and hearing, there are a couple important considerations at play in anticipation of the 21’ M2C release.

1. BMW does not operate according a to ‘LEAN’ manufacturing model, at least not to the same extent as Porsche and Toyota. This would explain the very limited ‘options’ available on the 19’ and 20’ M2C configurator and – I agree - is not expected to change with the 21’ M2C.

The question, and basis of this thread, is what ‘standard’ features can we expect to change with 21’ M2C. I completely agree that BMW is not going to engage in any significant development of new parts. However, I think it is reasonable to expect more than an imperceptible taillight tint change. Rather, something from the BMW M parts bin warehouse. . . which leads to point number 2.

2. Prevailing view is that BMW must be careful in sharing the part bins between the M2C and M2CS, as they do not want to foil the heist associated with the latter. The fragile existence of the M2CS appears to hinge largely upon the Adaptive M Suspension, and considered by many to be off-limits to the M2C. Too bad, as inclusion would nicely complete the blank center console button in the M2C. What about the other part bins – are they ALL off-limits if included with the M2CS?

Going against the grain of what others have stated, I do believe BMW will dip into some of the part bins with release of the 21’ M2C. For example, Executive Package, M Performance Steering Wheel and M Performance Exhaust represent items that BMW could bundle as standard features for a modest new model price increase. Other examples exist in various forms, and for which others might have opinion and/or hope.

///AVM
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      01-29-2020, 01:38 PM   #39
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i wish the 2021 model would have HUD and adaptive suspension.
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      01-29-2020, 01:47 PM   #40
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I wish the 2021 model is a G87 and to win this years potato sack race.
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      01-29-2020, 01:53 PM   #41
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I wish the 2021 model is a G87 and to win this years potato sack race.
Amen 🙏

Nothing left to see here with the F-series, I'm ready to move on..
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      01-29-2020, 01:58 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
1. BMW does not operate according a to ‘LEAN’ manufacturing model, at least not to the same extent as Porsche and Toyota. This would explain the very limited ‘options’ available on the 19’ and 20’ M2C configurator and – I agree - is not expected to change with the 21’ M2C.
That's a reach I think. There are plenty of BMWs that can be optioned in many ways, so that is not a constraint on the M2. I think the limitations have been created only from a market segment and pricing perspective, to create some gap and differentiation between the M2, M3, and M4

I think part of what makes the M2 perfect is the price point and what you really get for $65k. Its got most of the features you want these days, and none which you dont from a car like this. I think its perfectly packaged
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      01-29-2020, 02:18 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
TLDR: BMW would if they could, but they can't so they don't.

Apologies in advance for the novel length post, but it sounds like you're asking a genuine question, so am trying to provide a genuine answer. If you're really seriously asking why Porsche do it but BMW does not, I have a real answer based on having done quite a bit of work in assembly plants and manufacturers.

I do quite a bit helping Fortune 500 companies set up operations, including assembly plants for auto manufacturers. On this forum, I'm a clown. But in my real life job, I spend a lot of time advising senior execs at big companies.

Porsche can offer 8,000 options because they use a technique called "Lean." Lean manufacturing enables Porsche to flexibly design their assembly plants so that they can easily accommodate "customized" builds. For example, last year, Porsche pointed out that at most they'd only built 2 identical 911's worldwide. What that means is that due to their lean manufacturing prowess, they were able to build ~10k custom cars.

No other auto manufacturer has this capability. As a result, Porsche have the highest margins of any auto manufacturer. Letting people custom design their cars allows Porsche to perfectly "price discriminate" and charge consumers at precisely their maximum willingness to pay.

Again, NO OTHER AUTO MANUFACTURER has this capability. Toyota are arguably even better at lean than Porsche (the technique originated with Toyota) but they have focused their lean capabilities 100% on reliability and quality, as opposed to customization and price discrimination, as Porsche have.

The reason BMW does not give us 8,000 options to customize our cars is not that they don't want to, or that they don't recognize the value in doing so, or that they don't know that we'd be willing to pay out the nose for the privilege... it's that BMW and all the other manufacturers not called Toyota and Porsche still use a version of mass manufacturing. Because BMW has not mastered lean techniques, their plants, their people, their processes are not set up to allow any REAL customization.

There was a huge long thread many moons ago decrying the fact that if you wanted an individual color on the M2C, it would cost you $24k. The reason it costs so much is not that BMW was gouging you for the privilege. It was that the Leipzig plant is not set up to do customization, and it probably costs BMW greatly in excess of $24k to provide individual paint - I think they only did it for Mr. Fux and maybe one or two other VIPs worldwide.

So, with all that said, the Leipzig plant is set up in a very inflexible way, the workers are trained and incentivized with a mass manufacturing culture and mindset, and the processes are turgid. As a result, the 2021 model year will most likely end up with EXACTLY the same features as the 2020 model...

I take that back: they did upgrade the rear lights between the 2019 and 2020 models. Check out the 15 threads on that REVOLUTIONARY change. Whoever can spot the difference between the rear lights on the 2019 versus 2020 models deserves a cookie! But, when you use mass manufacturing techniques like BMW does, that's about all you can profitably do between model years - in other words, next to nil.
Lean Six Sigma kaizen stuff eh? All it takes is the right people pushing for it. Concerning Porsche vs other manufactures options availability, I would think marketing plays a part in that too. Is there a demand for so many options vs cookie cutter option packages? I would think it depends on the desires of the customer base. BTW, these are just rhetorical questions. I don't mean to get off topic. My bad.
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      01-29-2020, 02:36 PM   #44
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I do see the potential for the Executive Package to be offered as a standard feature on the 2021-- it would simplify the parts chain and eliminate some complexity in the build process. They could bump the price up a small bit and probably break even overall.

Just a thought.

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