[scrammer]

A comprehensive list of lap times from the "Hockenheim Short" configuration

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-short

[gthal]

Originally Posted by scrammer

A comprehensive list of lap times from the "Hockenheim Short" configuration

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-short

What's pretty cool about this is that the M2 is tied with the M3 GTS as the fastest BMW's at Hockenheim ever! The M4 was driven by Horst and we know he is no slouch so this isn't a driver issue

Having said that, the M4 CP will be faster but, for a short time anyway, the M2 is the fastest M car on this track

Again... this really speaks to the capability of the chassis and suspension set up on this car because it is way down on power compared to the other BMW's on the list. M did a great job and I can't wait to get mine on the track (my home track is a shorter technical track like Hockenheim).

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by nonagon

It's not clear if the values on top are for the M4 or the M2. If they are the M4, it won because of quicker acceleration to higher speeds in the long straights -- it appears the M2 took curves at a faster speed. At the end of one straight the M2 had a higher top speed as well. Weird.

It puts the power down early (much earlier) coming out of the corner. That's not really considered a straight though.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by stvding

Will xDrive make M go faster around track???

Nope.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Nope.

Well, the technically correct answer is "maybe" Like, in a snow storm at the track the xDrive would definitely be faster.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

If you want a comfy, posh, GT car.. Go ahead and get an M3/M4 Matter of fact .. Knock yourself out with extended leather man.. It's cool.....

It never used to be like this with e30/36/46/9x. Nobody cared about luxury.

The new demographic for m3/4 owners is gt car luxury and not performance based.

With customers like this it is slowly the demise of the m3. Pretty soon it's going to be a luxobarge with AWD and no manual.

Sad story for someone like me. I would have been perfectly fine with m3 models for the rest of my life but will probably have to look elsewhere soon.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by Rasya

Only one good explanation for the difference in lap times here in my opinion, ceramic brakes. Otherwise these data don't make any sense imho.

Wth does this even mean?

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Read my post above ^

With the proper tires, and an active rear diff, yes it can be faster.

NOBODY WANTS AWD IN AN M CAR. STOP THIS NONSENSE AND LEARN SOME CAR CONTROL!

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by gthal

Well, the technically correct answer is "maybe" Like, in a snow storm at the track the xDrive would definitely be faster.

I bet I can drive on snow faster in my rwd than the same guy who complains he needs awd. It's usually a skill thing

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

It never used to be like this with e30/36/46/9x. Nobody cared about luxury.

The new demographic for m3/4 owners is gt car luxury and not performance based.

With customers like this it is slowly the demise of the m3. Pretty soon it's going to be a luxobarge with AWD and no manual.

Sad story for someone like me. I would have been perfectly fine with m3 models for the rest of my life but will probably have to look elsewhere soon.

Snap out of it son! The M3 is well on its way to being what the M5 used to be. Join the outcry ..Get in line for an m2 .. Or demand an m2 gran coupe .. If not this current generation then for the next ...

[adc]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

It never used to be like this with e30/36/46/9x. Nobody cared about luxury.

The new demographic for m3/4 owners is gt car luxury and not performance based.

With customers like this it is slowly the demise of the m3. Pretty soon it's going to be a luxobarge with AWD and no manual.

Sad story for someone like me. I would have been perfectly fine with m3 models for the rest of my life but will probably have to look elsewhere soon.

That is just not true.

Most E46, E90 M cars were loaded to the gills. Go find a stick E90 with no iDrive and sunroof delete like I had, good luck. Even the E30 had leather, AC, radio, electric windows, sunroof etc. The E36 added heated power seats, rear folding seats, automatic transmission etc. The E46 added the stupid SMG (actually with the E36 in Europe), plus navigation. The E90 went on with DCT, iDrive, giant exhaust and was actually the heaviest of them all including the F80. I should know I've owned one.

The truth is that the M3 has always been a luxurious car for its time, in all the generations. It has had all the goodies thrown at it, time and time again - and was also usually the heaviest of the 3 series range. To remember them any other way is to look through nostalgia glasses.

The F80 is the best chassis of them all out of the box. It's just excellent on track, all stock. And oh yeah, requires more driver skill to max out, because of the extra torque. GT luxo-barge my ass.


Back on topic though, good show on the M2...

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by adc

That is just not true.

Most E46, E90 M cars were loaded to the gills. Go find a stick E90 with no iDrive and sunroof delete like I had, good luck. Even the E30 had leather, AC, radio, electric windows, sunroof etc. The E36 added heated power seats, rear folding seats, automatic transmission etc. The E46 added the stupid SMG (actually with the E36 in Europe), plus navigation. The E90 went on with DCT, iDrive, giant exhaust and was actually the heaviest of them all including the F80. I should know I've owned one.

The truth is that the M3 has always been a luxurious car for its time, in all the generations. It has had all the goodies thrown at it, time and time again - and was also usually the heaviest of the 3 series range. To remember them any other way is to look through nostalgia glasses.

The F80 is the best chassis of them all out of the box. It's just excellent on track, all stock. And oh yeah, requires more driver skill to max out, because of the extra torque. GT luxo-barge my ass.


Back on topic though, good show on the M2...

It is a gt luxobarge. It is capable but it's even more gt. The demographic is indeed changed because nobody who dared to buy the e90 because of 12 mpg is now all over the f80. Look at the forum and its members.


Ac and leather is luxury now?

[DaveCM5]

Such a short little track. Even a Mazda Miata would compare well. Only 175km/hr in straights.

What are thier Nurburgring times?

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by DaveCM5

Such a short little track. Even a Mazda Miata would compare well. Only 175km/hr in straights.

What are thier Nurburgring times?

Stock Miata would do a 1:19/1:20 I guess...

M2 NS times are 7:58 officially and repeatable. There was a 7:52 also but BMW don't want to publicly state that time because of M4 you see?

(See my signature, same statement in German on TG Germany)

Cheers
Robin

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by DaveCM5

Such a short little track. Even a Mazda Miata would compare well. Only 175km/hr in straights.

What are thier Nurburgring times?

I've been keeping an eye on FastestLaps.com to get answers to these types of questions.

http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m2-n-a

So far, the results are pretty limited. For actual tracks, there are only three results: Hockenheim Short, Nordschleife, and Streets of Willow. Both Hockenheim Short and Streets of Willow are very short tracks. Interestingly, Hockenheim is nice and smooth, while Streets of Willow is very rough, and the M2 does well on both. The Nordschleife... Well, it's the Nordschleife: long, rough, brutal. It does tend to favor cars with lots of horsepower because of Dottinger Hohe, but the M2 still puts up a sub-8 time, which is right on the M4's (7:52) heels. The M4's six second win is about a 1% difference.

IMO, the M2 is one of those cars that punches way above its weight. I put it in the same group as cars like the Seat Leon Cupra Sub8, Megane Trophy R, and Civic Type R. If you look at a list of Nordschleife lap times below 8:00, you'll see that the vast majority of the cars carry nameplates associated with premium sports cars, exotics, niche manufacturers, and track-day specials. There are only a handful of cars that most people (non-enthusiasts) would feel comfortable driving to get groceries. BMW makes two cars on this list. That's pretty awesome.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

I've been keeping an eye on FastestLaps.com to get answers to these types of questions.

http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m2-n-a

So far, the results are pretty limited. For actual tracks, there are only three results: Hockenheim Short, Nordschleife, and Streets of Willow. Both Hockenheim Short and Streets of Willow are very short tracks. Interestingly, Hockenheim is nice and smooth, while Streets of Willow is very rough, and the M2 does well on both. The Nordschleife... Well, it's the Nordschleife: long, rough, brutal. It does tend to favor cars with lots of horsepower because of Dottinger Hohe, but the M2 still puts up a sub-8 time, which is right on the M4's (7:52) heels. The M4's six second win is about a 1% difference.

IMO, the M2 is one of those cars that punches way above its weight. I put it in the same group as cars like the Seat Leon Cupra Sub8, Megane Trophy R, and Civic Type R. If you look at a list of Nordschleife lap times below 8:00, you'll see that the vast majority of the cars carry nameplates associated with premium sports cars, exotics, niche manufacturers, and track-day specials. There are only a handful of cars that most people (non-enthusiasts) would feel comfortable driving to get groceries. BMW makes two cars on this list. That's pretty awesome.

And mind you, Megane/Leon/Civic are specially prepared cars for that laptime equipped with Sport Cup semislicks, no backseats etc , M2 does it on 'normal' tyres and out of the box. It'll eat those three irl.

Afaik Civic R did this Hockenheim at least 2 s slower than M2.
Rest of them more or less same story.

And even if the are on par/faster than M2, they have one HUGE problem, fwd....imho

Cheers
Robin

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

And mind you, Megane/Leon/Civic are specially prepared cars for that laptime equipped with Sport Cup semislicks, no backseats etc , M2 does it on 'normal' tyres and out of the box. It'll eat those three irl.

Afaik Civic R did this Hockenheim at least 2 s slower than M2.
Rest of them more or less same story.

And even if the are on par/faster than M2, they have one HUGE problem, fwd....imho

Cheers
Robin

Don't get me wrong, out of that group, I'd take the M2 all day long.

- The larger base displacement of the N55 means the motor is less stressed and will deliver far better throttle response.
- RWD means I won't have to rely on things like trail braking in order to setup mid-corner oversteer.
- Fewer compromises for day-to-day livability.

[adc]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

It is a gt luxobarge. It is capable but it's even more gt. The demographic is indeed changed because nobody who dared to buy the e90 because of 12 mpg is now all over the f80. Look at the forum and its members.


Ac and leather is luxury now?

If the F80 is a GT luxobarge, then so is the E90. After all, it has the same features, less power and more weight. Not to mention, it is softer sprung and more cosseting in the comfort setting.

The demographic didn't change at all. In 2009 when I got my E90 everyone wanted one but balked at the high price, not at the mileage. 12 mpg was nothing compared to $70k plus. The only ones pointing out at the mileage were the modified 335i crowd - amusing but irrelevant.

Now I understand that you love your car, and I loved the E90 dearly - but the game has moved on. Wail all you want now, pretty sure you'll join the crowd in a few years.


And yes, AC, electric windows, sunroof and leather were luxury items back in 1989 when the E30 M3 made its debut. Especially on a homologation special, unheard of. The darn thing weighed more than a 325i with the heavier engine.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by adc

If the F80 is a GT luxobarge, then so is the E90. After all, it has the same features, less power and more weight. Not to mention, it is softer sprung and more cosseting in the comfort setting.

The demographic didn't change at all. In 2009 when I got my E90 everyone wanted one but balked at the high price, not at the mileage. 12 mpg was nothing compared to $70k plus. The only ones pointing out at the mileage were the modified 335i crowd - amusing but irrelevant.

Now I understand that you love your car, and I loved the E90 dearly - but the game has moved on. Wail all you want now, pretty sure you'll join the crowd in a few years.


And yes, AC, electric windows, sunroof and leather were luxury items back in 1989 when the E30 M3 made its debut. Especially on a homologation special, unheard of. The darn thing weighed more than a 325i with the heavier engine.

I actually love the f80 as well - it's fast, performs better - but it's a tad too big.

And the demographic you just proved my point. 335 owners. Now m3 owners. Because turbo, torque, and mileage.

I'm not gonna get one though. Pcar (sadly don't know what to think of the 718 and 991 that just came out - turdbo). I'd rather wait for the next m3/4, hoping it has a hybrid drivetrain like the p1, 918, laF. That would be awesome.

[DaveCM5]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Stock Miata would do a 1:19/1:20 I guess...

M2 NS times are 7:58 officially and repeatable. There was a 7:52 also but BMW don't want to publicly state that time because of M4 you see?

(See my signature, same statement in German on TG Germany)

Cheers
Robin

If it does hit the sevens then it must handle fantastically. Good job BMW!

-Dave

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by adc

If the F80 is a GT luxobarge, then so is the E90. After all, it has the same features, less power and more weight. Not to mention, it is softer sprung and more cosseting in the comfort setting.

The demographic didn't change at all. In 2009 when I got my E90 everyone wanted one but balked at the high price, not at the mileage. 12 mpg was nothing compared to $70k plus. The only ones pointing out at the mileage were the modified 335i crowd - amusing but irrelevant.

Now I understand that you love your car, and I loved the E90 dearly - but the game has moved on. Wail all you want now, pretty sure you'll join the crowd in a few years.


And yes, AC, electric windows, sunroof and leather were luxury items back in 1989 when the E30 M3 made its debut. Especially on a homologation special, unheard of. The darn thing weighed more than a 325i with the heavier engine.

all M cars are loaded with options. Have been since the beginning. It's the top line model. Anyone arguing this should be shot on sight.

However , as BMW moved the 3 series up in size to compete with rivals, they have turned it into a luxo barge. It was a luxo compact before.


The E90 is absolutely the first M3 luxo barge.

The F80 is the second M3 luxo barge.

The top three vehicles in North America that have gone from Compact to luxo barge are ...

1- tie - BMW 3 series
1 - tie - Honda Accord
3- Toyota Camry

The Toyota Camry was already a luxo barge for Toyota. It's just gotten bigger. Hence its 3rd place compared to the Honda and BMW

[mxa121]

I imagine this is what it's like on the Cayman vs 911 boards as well!

If weight were the only reason for corner speed, a GTR would be slower, but it's not. That speaks volumes for the M2. This isn't really new though, is it? Back when the 1M was introduced, it could keep up with the E92 M3 as well.

Fact is, smaller tracks will always favor smaller cars. I doubt they will be this close at, say, VIR. Not knocking either car, it's just facts. I can run laps at small tracks in my Cayman that equal what I did in my past M3, even at 100 hp down. But at longer tracks, nope.