[johnung]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

From what's posted by the B58 guys, the TU pump Is 23% more than stock, the DS1 is 36%.

The Tu pump is really good for California people who can't upgrade the HPFP without a flash option which the TU pump allows

It functiona just like the stock HPFP, and can be tuned in relatively the same way. Yes, absolute headroom will be lower.

Caution concerning B58TU flow rate specs. The F3x uses a cam driven HPFP. The cam on the B58 engine and the cam on the N55 engine are different. So if you put the same B58TU pump on both engines then you get two different flow rates.

So whatever B58TU flow rate is being used on the B58 forum section would not apply to the N55. I believe on the N55 cam it flows less.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by johnung

Caution concerning B58TU flow rate specs. The F3x uses a cam driven HPFP. The cam on the B58 engine and the cam on the N55 engine are different. So if you put the same B58TU pump on both engines then you get two different flow rates.

So whatever B58TU flow rate is being used on the B58 forum section would not apply to the N55. I believe on the N55 cam it flows less.

It does - but it's relative to the stock pump. They actually posted the numbers in the thread - it's still 23% over the stock pump.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

20whp with hpfp on pump gas stock turbo I'd be pleased with that why does everyone say not to upgrade hpfp for stock turbo. Not everyone wants or needs crazy numbers!

Having said that I really want the Pure 500 AND HPFP and a custom tune.

Curious what fuel you have to work with in New Zealand? Do they really add kiwi juice instead ethanol to quiet knock?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

Thanks, I have access to 98/93 fuel and will never do ethanol.

I want a bit more pace but especially to pull meaningfully to redline.

Okay so if you look at the attached dyno, this is a M2 EWG RWD with a Pure500 and a Dorch Stage 1.5 HPFP using slightly weak 93 Octane. (Fuel quality comment from the tuner)

I have an N55 EWG XDrive. After my Pure500 was installed I drove it around using poor quality 93 octane with a Bootmod3 Stage2+ OTS tune. Even with the weak fuel and an OTS tune that was about 3-4psi less than a custom tune, the difference between the stock N55 EWG turbo and the Pure500 was obvious.

The P500 was very responsive. It actually felt more responsive than the stock turbo, but of course that’s subjective. What was really obvious was that the P500 was holding power higher and longer than the stock turbo. The horsepower available felt more expansive to me. That increased more dramatically with the HCP custom tune.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It does - but it's relative to the stock pump. They actually posted the numbers in the thread - it's still 23% over the stock pump.

Yes but they do not use the same stock pump. On the B58 forum they would compare the B58TU pump to the standard B58 pump with both running on the B58 camshaft.

The flow of the stock N55 pump is measured on the N55 camshaft. The B58TU pump running on the N55 camshaft flows less than when it’s on the B58 camshaft.

[3t3p]

Well I've found a shop who has closed the deck and forged an N55 and with Dave Shoup tuning hit 1000hp!

So I think I'm gonna have to go for it! (P500 not 1000bhp!)

For reference this is Llama Engineering in NZ.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by johnung

Yes but they do not use the same stock pump. On the B58 forum they would compare the B58TU pump to the standard B58 pump with both running on the B58 camshaft.

The flow of the stock N55 pump is measured on the N55 camshaft. The B58TU pump running on the N55 camshaft flows less than when it’s on the B58 camshaft.

The HDP5 on the N55 flows .896.5/cc per rev - I calculated this myself.
The HDP6 on the N55 flows 1106.85/CC per rev -

That's 19% difference in flow. A almost 20% pump in fuel flow for a HPFP can can regularly be had for $300USD is awesome.

Also, I would advise you speak with a good tuner who knows what they are looking at no matter what pump your using. I spoke to David Shoup a few times last month - he's a really knowledgeable guy, pretty funny - very technical and detailed. He has a post on his Facebook page about tuning for HPFPs and honestly I'm not sure most tuners are going through this level of detail to get the job done correctly.

I know people claim "X know that" or "X did this" but I know he has his own XDFs and already mapped everything out (which is why People like Him, Stage FP and others like using MHD) they already have their spreadsheets on their tuning strategy. David really impressed me with his understanding of boost control even on the PWG platform. He's got it so dialed in it carried over to the EWG, and absolute control over even aftermarket turbos.

I'm going to say he may be among the best based on what I understand.

Just from my conversation (and some of the cars he's worked on) he gets a recommendation from me - and again, I can't say enough good things about Bob from Stage FP as well.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

The HDP5 on the N55 flows .896.5/cc per rev - I calculated this myself.
The HDP6 on the N55 flows 1106.85/CC per rev -

That's 19% difference in flow. A almost 20% pump in fuel flow for a HPFP can can regularly be had for $300USD is awesome.

Also, I would advise you speak with a good tuner who knows what they are looking at no matter what pump your using. I spoke to David Shoup a few times last month - he's a really knowledgeable guy, pretty funny - very technical and detailed. He has a post on his Facebook page about tuning for HPFPs and honestly I'm not sure most tuners are going through this level of detail to get the job done correctly.

I know people claim "X know that" or "X did this" but I know he has his own XDFs and already mapped everything out (which is why People like Him, Stage FP and others like using MHD) they already have their spreadsheets on their tuning strategy. David really impressed me with his understanding of boost control even on the PWG platform. He's got it so dialed in it carried over to the EWG, and absolute control over even aftermarket turbos.

I'm going to say he may be among the best based on what I understand.

Just from my conversation (and some of the cars he's worked on) he gets a recommendation from me - and again, I can't say enough good things about Bob from Stage FP as well.

Dorch Engineering published the flow rates of the various pumps. Dorch is an expert in how tune and fuel mix affects flow. He is always cautioning about the variables.

For tuning I’ve depended on Halim Cazimi from HC Performance. No one knows the Bootmod3 platform better than Halim since he designed it all BG with the BM3 OTS tunes that I’ve used for years.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by johnung

Dorch Engineering published the flow rates of the various pumps. Dorch is an expert in how tune and fuel mix affects flow. He is always cautioning about the variables.

For tuning I’ve depended on Halim Cazimi from HC Performance. No one knows the Bootmod3 platform better than Halim since he designed it all BG with the BM3 OTS tunes that I’ve used for years.

Look man, I'm sure that's good and well but this is beyond that. Go look on David's facebook page. He tuned a car and when the fuel pressure request became to high, it started to push back on the cam.

He tweaked the pressure and adjusted the cam timing to compensate. It sounds simple but it's pretty brilliant.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Look man, I'm sure that's good and well but this is beyond that. Go look on David's facebook page. He tuned a car and when the fuel pressure request became to high, it started to push back on the cam.

He tweaked the pressure and adjusted the cam timing to compensate. It sounds simple but it's pretty brilliant.

I didn’t say anything negative about Shoup. He has a great reputation. Not sure what or why you seem to be trying to argue

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by johnung

I didn’t say anything negative about Shoup. He has a great reputation. Not sure what or why you seem to be trying to argue

Who is arguing?
I mentioned Shoup for tuning, though re reading my post I didn't quote 3t3p - So I guess it could be construed towards you.

No I wouldn't expect you to switch, but if a few guys are looking for a tuner, I mentioned my recommendations.

[3t3p]

I'm kinda wondering if I should do a custom tune with David with stock turbo and DS15 first. Or if gains over MHD OTS will be underwhelming and just get the pure 500 in from get go.

Suppose it depends how much you pay to revise a tune or even create a whole new one I suppose if using a different turbo.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

I'm kinda wondering if I should do a custom tune with David with stock turbo and DS15 first. Or if gains over MHD OTS will be underwhelming and just get the pure 500 in from get go.

Suppose it depends how much you pay to revise a tune or even create a whole new one I suppose if using a different turbo.

MHDs ots maps are weak, BM3s maps are a little better in some areas, but still meh. I posted the dyno from WGMOTORWERKS on the Custom tune vs the stage 2+ BM3 maps, and there were gains everywhere. It gets bigger when you have a better turbo.

If it's pump gas only - a B58tu pump will work - if you want E - anything, you're better off with a stage 2 pump. I know Dorch revised the their pump, I don't think it's still enough. This is actually being hotly debated on the B58 side. Basically, a good tuner will make anything work - but plan what your goals are before you buy.

[AmuroRay]

If you don't have social media like me, seeing this stuff is tough

[3t3p]

That's awesome thanks, some really worthwhile gains with custom even against BM3 which is a tick more aggressive and esp toward redline than MHD.

The HP graph bares some similarities to the infinity air intake too, no gains in midrange but some lower down and higher up. Wonder why that is and if any reflection on air intake system used?

[wheela]

AmuroRay thanks for sharing those screenshots, I'm not on social media either.

I see those charts are on crank hp. I'm not so used to seeing crank numbers, does anybody have any guesses how this converts to wheel hp? I've heard about a 10% difference for these cars, but don't know how accurate that is, or if the conversion is the same at different power levels.

[wheela]

Also, for that "580 on pump" do they mean 93, or e85 from a "pump"? I'd assume "pump" means 93, but I see M5 injectors listed, I wouldn't think they'd be needed for those numbers on pump 93, but extra headroom and room to grow on your fueling is always nice. Incidentally, I recall Dorch putting the limit on the stage 2 pump on that power ballpark when running e85.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by wheela

Also, for that "580 on pump" do they mean 93, or e85 from a "pump"? I'd assume "pump" means 93, but I see M5 injectors listed, I wouldn't think they'd be needed for those numbers on pump 93, but extra headroom and room to grow on your fueling is always nice. Incidentally, I recall Dorch putting the limit on the stage 2 pump on that power ballpark when running e85.

They don't have E85 pump, so it'd just regular pump gas.

[3t3p]

No e85 pumps in UK that aren't on a race track far as I know.
And we love crank/brake power figures.
Aren't most transmission losses 12.5-15%?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

That's awesome thanks, some really worthwhile gains with custom even against BM3 which is a tick more aggressive and esp toward redline than MHD.

The HP graph bares some similarities to the infinity air intake too, no gains in midrange but some lower down and higher up. Wonder why that is and if any reflection on air intake system used?

I don't know the exact mods, but I'd strongly recommend you beef up your entire intake system for the best gains - a proper inlet, a good intercooler (Temps get hot when running a hotter tune) a diverter doesn't hurt either.

[3t3p]

No reply from David Shoup in over a week.

Makes me think I can do hpfp and the turbo and use MHD OTS stage 2 hpfp maps and still do it all myself and change settings whenever I like.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

No e85 pumps in UK that aren't on a race track far as I know.
And we love crank/brake power figures.
Aren't most transmission losses 12.5-15%?

My experienced BMW Dyno shop said -15% for RWD Automatic crank hp to wheel horsepower. And -19% for XDrive Automatic. I never asked about any of the other transmissions