[Sparky68]

Originally Posted by ZM2

johnung is running more boost and timing than us. He’s been working with Halim to have the Multimap scale more timing with higher Emix beyond E50 like we run. And he also has more boost layered in than the OTS.

That said, his logs look beautiful (some of the best I’ve ever seen) bc he has the octane (E82) to support the tune.

Dont think my tune will match johnung numbers as we dont have ethanol, though I'm hoping my methanol set up will compensate a bit. I'd be happy with 450-460whp

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Sparky68

Dont think my tune will match johnung numbers as we dont have ethanol, though I'm hoping my methanol set up will compensate a bit. I'd be happy with 450-460whp

Who is tuning it? And are you using a meth controller like a JB4, and then a BEF?
What mods?

[Sparky68]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Who is tuning it? And are you using a meth controller like a JB4, and then a BEF?
What mods?

Waiting for a tune from HCP , will be using my JB4 for meth control once I get around to fitting it.

[TUDMG]

Originally Posted by ZM2

johnung is running more boost and timing than us. He’s been working with Halim to have the Multimap scale more timing with higher Emix beyond E50 like we run.

That said, his logs look beautiful (some of the best I’ve ever seen) bc he has the octane to support the tune.

Oh, didn’t realize his tune scales for higher Emixes. Might have to bring in my expectations a tad for my own dyno numbers…

johnung care to share a log? I’m curious what it looks like.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Do you mind giving me a breakdown on what you found - Turbos specifically?
I'm thinking there aren't a lot out there in the stage 2 catergory I can think of, Pure Stage 2+P750, TTE550, and Maybe VTT turbo?

That's what I was hung up on $1,000 vs $2,500

Tuning- Custom tune is a must
Fueling - B58 or DS1 for 93
Supporting modifications- Diverter valve, inlet
Base level modification - Intake, intercooler, Downpipe, Exhaust

Sure. Many of those are quick decisions for me because of research I’ve already done or my experience.

So if the goal is 500whp+ on N55 EWG using pump gas:

POTENTIAL TURBOS- 500whp+ on 93

Pure750
definitely can meet the performance spec. Dyno’s should be available soon to see where it falls in range of 500-600whp, and sort out conflicting information on amount of lag.

Pure600
initial specs seem to indicate it should meet performance spec. But will be a while before accurate information and dyno curves are available. I’m skeptical about claims of less lag than P750, especially if P750 turns out to be only 300-400rpm as some claim. Lag comment may just be marketing positioning.
Comment: If P750 dyno’s turn out to be very positive with lag and power curve, then I can’t imagine the P600 being attractive enough for only $500 less than P750. Pure rates P750 at 600whp and P600 at 550whp. So if all other factors are positive, who wouldn’t pay $500 more for +50whp.

Pure Stage2
Older turbo that is supposedly being replaced by Pure600. I’ve always hated its lag so I’d never consider it.

TTE550
It’s been a long time since I checked out this older German turbo. It may have the same issues as the TTE460, high price and expensive core charge shipping to Germany.

VARGAS
I would never ever buy something from Vargas, or even accept it if it was free. Every time that Ive encountered a Vargas product the engineering and materials have been substandard. There are numerous reports about them being poor to deal with as a company.

CUSTOM TUNING
Halim Cazimi from HC Performance is the master. Halim designed the Bootmod3 platform itself and the Bootmod3 OTS tunes. No one could tune the N55 better.

FUELING
I’ve written about this numerous times. I would never risk my $8,000+ engine to try to save a few hundred dollars by rigging a B58TU pump to run on my N55.

Dorch has great engineering and great tech support. A Dorch Stage 1.5 would be a great choice. But first I’d review my turbo decision and goals with Chris Dorch to see how close to capacity the DS15 would be and anything I might be forgetting that might warrant installing a Dorch Stage 2.5 HPFP.

Precision Raceworks is also excellent. I would install their Stage2.5v2 (Walbro 535) LPFP with custom straight through wiring. Good to 675whp on 93. Next smaller LPFP only saves $75 and cuts it too close to it maxing out.

ET3 Design Stage2 EKP to fix BMW problems of overheating, scorching and melting.

Bosch M5 S63 Fuel Injectors
Dorch and others have told me that stock injectors max out at about 520whp. Dorch sells them as a convenience for their customers.

IMO- Turbosmart Plumb Back BOV
I don’t really want to deal with partially vented to the atmosphere Dual Port model.

TURBO INLET PIPE
I’m on my fourth inlet pipe in six years due to upgrading and testing. IMO best stock o.d. inlet pipe is made by Pure Turbos.
NOTE: The Pure750 has a larger turbo inlet opening and Pure makes an inlet pipe to fit it.

INTAKE
I’ve done the MP Intake with drop in aFe filter. It works well. IMO the MST Intake is excellent for airflow, great cone filter and No CEL

INTERCOOLER
MAD Race or VRSF Race perform equally well. MAD Race is less expensive.

DOWNPIPE
I hate gasoline smell and live in a tough emissions state. Catted downpipes from Fabspeed/HJS or AA.

EXHAUST
Best I’ve heard is AWE axle back.

Hope this helps!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Sparky68

Dont think my tune will match johnung numbers as we dont have ethanol, though I'm hoping my methanol set up will compensate a bit. I'd be happy with 450-460whp

Attached is the dyno of an M2 N55 EWG RWD using 93 octane that Halim did a few weeks ago. He got 449whp and the curves really looked nice. Halim commented that the quality of the 93 wasn’t great either.

[Sparky68]

The sound from my Powervalve exhaust and decat DP is insane when I boot it and no drone when cruising.

[Sparky68]

Originally Posted by johnung

Attached is the dyno of an M2 N55 EWG RWD using 93 octane that Halim did a few weeks ago. He got 449whp and the curves really looked nice. Halim commented that the quality of the 93 wasn’t great either.

Our fuel is pretty good so that should be achievable with the meth, hopefully.

[Sparky68]

Question for you johnung are you able to switch back to lower maps when you have the HCP one installed ?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Sparky68

Question for you johnung are you able to switch back to lower maps when you have the HCP one installed ?

Yes. If I explain the process, it may make sense.

After the Pure500 was installed, I started by flashing the OTS Bootmod3 FlexFuel Stage2+ MultiMap tune. It has four mini-maps within the tune. Map1 is E30 which flexes up to E85 depending on the ethanol sensor reading that the tune running on the DME is receiving. I sent Halim a bunch of logs on various mixes from E30 to E85. He made changes and dropped a new version into my BM3 My Maps. Then I primarily sent him new logs on E85. Then he repeated the process and dropped a new version for me to log.

When he was satisfied with the tune from looking at logs, he had me dyno it and it was finished to his satisfaction. 500whp using E82!

I mentioned to him my concern that if my wife took the car for the day and had to fill it with 93 Octane, she could end up essentially driving an E30 tune with 93 Octane in the tank. So he made a change that if the tune sees the ethanol go below E20 then it cuts power down on the tune. Pretty neat automatic solution. I will test it out the next time that I have the tank down to 93 octane.

So my mini-map1 within the Stage2+ MultiMap tune is the HCP custom tune for the Pure500. I can put anything from E30 to E85 in the tank and it’s tuned for the Pure500.

But my mini-map3 is the OTS Stage2+ MultiMap that scales from 93 Octane to E85 but it uses the lower boost levels etc meant for the stock N55 EWG turbo.

So to answer your question, anytime that I want I can use the cruise control buttons on my steering wheel to flip between Mini-Map1 HCP Pure500 tune and Mini-Map3 BM3 OTS tune. Both tunes will just scale and set themselves to whatever ethanol percentage the FlexFuel ethanol sensor tells them.

A NOTE CONCERNING 93 OCTANE
When the Pure500 was installed I had 93 octane in the tank and I sent Halim logs using the OTS tune. He said that the fuel quality level was poor and not worth tuning. So we went the opposite direction and began tuning with E85.

You can tell if fuel is poor quality if the timing adjustments from cylinders 1 through 6 are all over the place, meaning they each have very different adjustment numbers. Doesn’t matter what the numbers are, just that the cylinders each pretty much have different numbers.

When I collect logs with ethanol the numbers are all pretty much the same across cylinders 1-6. Looks very strong.

So over this Fall I’ll collect logs using 93 Octane from all my local gas stations. I’ll use Mini-Map3 with the 93 octane base setting for the logs. If I can find quality 93 then it would be worth tuning for the Pure500. If not, I’ll just use the OTS mini-map3 over the winter when I have only 93 in the tank. It only takes seconds on the steering wheel buttons to switch between HCP & OTS tunes.

I hope this makes sense.

[Sparky68]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm guessing it would be similar with methanol. My concern was the rare occasion when I might run out of Meth.

Hopefully I will hear back from HCP this week and can discuss it with them.

Thanks again for the information

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Sparky68

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm guessing it would be similar with methanol. My concern was the rare occasion when I might run out of Meth.

Hopefully I will hear back from HCP this week and can discuss it with them.

Thanks again for the information

FYI- I believe that Halim was away on family holiday last week. Not sure when he’s expected to return.

[Sparky68]

OK that makes sense thanks mate

[Shaq93]

Originally Posted by johnung

Do you remember where you got that N55+ E80 dyno? I’m curious if there are more details like if it was RWD/XDrive, MHD/BM3, and who tuned it?

It seems odd that all the runs on this E80 dyno are stopped at 6200rpm, so short of redline. Other N55+ dynos that were allowed to continue show a deep drop in horsepower. The dyno of the N55+ using 93 octane that was posted by Shuenk, drops by 160whp over just 300rpm from 6200 to 6500rpms.

One of the guys in the Shuenk Facebook group posted that dyno. It’s a 2015 535i xDrive tuned by Wedge (not sure what platform).

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Shaq93

One of the guys in the Shuenk Facebook group posted that dyno. It’s a 2015 535i xDrive tuned by Wedge (not sure what platform).

SAE so it's more like 518whp (on that 507whp graph)
But it has a slower spool, similar peak hp potential (10-20whp PEAK) and a weaker top end that's JUST "equal" to the P500.

[TUDMG]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

SAE so it's more like 518whp (on that 507whp graph)
But it has a slower spool, similar peak hp potential (10-20whp PEAK) and a weaker top end that's JUST "equal" to the P500.

Exactly.

I just don't see the appeal of that turbo, especially when it costs over $450 more all in for parts, and way more in labor costs compared to the Pure500. Not to mention Pure has a stellar reputation for customer service.

But so much of the N55 community seems to have been brainwashed by the company's false claims that their turbo "replicates stock responsiveness" and the Pure500 is simply a "refreshed [Pure] stage 1," which is absolutely ridiculous. It seems to be consensus on Facebook at this point that the N55+ is superior based on these dishonest claims.

The N55+ is good value imo, but based on the data it's just no Pure500.

[Shaq93]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

SAE so it's more like 518whp (on that 507whp graph)
But it has a slower spool, similar peak hp potential (10-20whp PEAK) and a weaker top end that's JUST "equal" to the P500.

The top end drop off is the deal breaker for me. Although not ideal, I think I can deal with the slower spool. But losing 50 or more whp at the top of the rev range isn't compatible with my driving style.

[AmuroRay]

I'm not really a turbo technical guy, but maybe I should learn about it. It seems that playing with sizing of the Inducer and Exduser can move the flow/powerband of the turbo around. I might need to compare them all, and do some reading.


https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...means-1085033/

Originally Posted by WyomingTII

I didn't know if there was anything like this so I thought I'd help out. Without further introduction, here you go.

To understand why and how one compressor wheel flows differently than another, you need to understand the anatomy of the wheel itself.

Inducer size, Exducer size and what it all means.-inducer-1.jpg

Two key parts of a compressor are the inducer and the exducer. The inducer (sometimes called the minor diameter) is the part of the wheel that first takes a "bite" of ambient air. The exducer (sometimes called the major diameter) is the part of the wheel that "shoots" the air--now compressed--out of the turbo. Just remember that the inducer is where the air comes in and the exducer is where the air exits. Got it? Good.

You need to understand those two terms in order to grasp the concept of trim, a bizarre bit of tech-speak which is often thrown about. Trim is simply a term to describe the size of a specific compressor within a family of wheels. It can be expressed in abstract ways (such as when Turbonetics says they have P-trims, Q-trims, etc) or you can use the actual numeric measurement (50 trim, 57 trim, etc). Here's how you calculate the measurement:

Trim = (minor diameter / major diameter) ^2 * 100

So now we have a way to perform some math and get a number. What does it all mean? Generally speaking, the larger the trim the more flow the wheel will have. Nevertheless, one should not rely solely on a trim measurement when selecting a compressor wheel! Find out specific wheel measurements (inducer and exducer), understand how subtle differences will affect airflow and response, and then choose a wheel accordingly.

What happens when you upgrade to a larger inducer while retaining the same exducer? The most notable change is more airflow capability; since the turbo is taking a bigger "bite" of air in every revolution, it can obviously "spit out" more air as well. Gee, more airflow aounds great... so why not go to the biggest inducer you can find? Because that creates two main problems, one much more important than the other. The smaller problem--really it's just a nuisance--is the turbo will now have a little more lag during spoolup (because the bigger wheel weighs more, plus it has to do more work with each revolution, etc). While this extra lag might not be noticed on a dyno--all the bystanders will be oohing and ahhing at the huge top-end horsepower such a turbo would produce--it would make for dissatisfaction in your day-to-day drive and could even cause you to lose a drag race to a car with less peak horsepower but more area "under the curve" due to his turbo that spools sooner. The real trouble with a large inducer increase but no exducer increase, though, is it makes the turbo much more likely to surge. Surge is the situation when the compressor "spits out" more air than the engine can swallow, which causes a backup of air at the intake and it actually creates reverse-flowing pressure waves that can be very damaging to the turbo. You want to avoid surge at all costs.
Okay, so maybe we won't go hog nuts wild with the inducer. How 'bout the exducer?

When you upsize the exducer without modifying the inducer, the exact opposite effect happens: your spoolup time is reduced. Why does this happen? Remember that a compressor "spits out" the air in a radial fashion. The larger exducer gives a higher wheel edge speed for a given shaft speed, and that higher edge speed means the compressed air exits at a higher speed than before... and thus it builds boost faster. Another effect of this upgrade is an increase of the compressor's pressure ratio capability without a significant increase in its maximum flow rate.

So now let's tie it all together. If you want more power with similar response, look for an upgrade of both diameters. The larger inducer will net you more airflow and thus greater power capability, while the larger exducer keeps boost response within reason and lessens the chance of surge.

(Stop and take a deep breath--you've digested a lot of info.)

Thanks to TurboMinivan.com

Forums used to be a great place to find technical discussion and information, now....Anyhow, I have to fact check this to make sure it's true. But maybe we could compare compressor inducer/exducer between the turbos?

[ThreeStripes]

Originally Posted by TUDMG

But so much of the N55 community seems to have been brainwashed by the company's false claims that their turbo "replicates stock responsiveness" and the Pure500 is simply a "refreshed [Pure] stage 1," which is absolutely ridiculous. It seems to be consensus on Facebook at this point that the N55+ is superior based on these dishonest claims.

The N55+ is good value imo, but based on the data it's just no Pure500.

Small echo chambers aren’t representative of an entire user base. The cult of personality is real.

[TUDMG]

Originally Posted by ThreeStripes

Small echo chambers aren’t representative of an entire user base. The cult of personality is real.

True, but I don’t think we’re talking about a small echo chamber.

[VGSON]

sooooo….any vids of pulls say 40-100 or so with the pure500 or pure750’s?

[CanadianM2]

Hypothetically if my custom tune (HCP) Stage 2+ DS15 M2 makes 400whp on 91 octane with perfect timing, what are my potential gains with
P500 & P750 and a custom tune from the one of the best tuners (HCP)

I am thinking if staying with the same 91 the P500 may offer me around 420-440whp mark & the 750 should net me around 460-470whp?

I found my dragy and ran a 10.22 60-100kmh in my 6MT and my wife claims it’s slow to be fair my MK7R does 100-200 in 7.9 on the same 91 (upgraded turbo) need my race car to be faster than the daily