[Devon K]

Beyond the missing clutch pedal, the difficulty is see with DCTs and autos these days for those that like shifting themselves is that the high number of gears they employ (8 and headed higher) and the way the gears are so closely ratioed to save fuel leaves you having to shift so frequently that eventually it just becomes a chore and you leave it to the car - and your engagement with the experience of driving drops as a result. This process has been reported here and elsewhere by those with 8 speed autos/DCTs.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

I knew I would get some goats with the manual only comment.
And yes, I speak only for myself and a small contingent of diehards.

I like manuals because I feel genuinely more involved via mechanical linkage to the car. I like that I have greater control over the car because it will never upshift or downshift except when I want it to and I have other control advantages via varying degrees of clutch engagement (although that last bit is only useful a small percentage of my driving time). I honestly hate it when an automatic shifts for me uncommanded.

All that should come with the context that I am a helicopter pilot and that direct mechanical linkage with all four appendages is a similar feel. It just makes me feel like a part of the machine in a way that the disconnected autos don't, but that is my personal preference (and that of a small percentage of enthusiasts).

Do modern high-end autos and DCTs outperform manuals? In most cases yes. Why are the high-end cars (Lambos, Ferrarris, etc) going to them almost exclusively? Because they want to eke out every last possible fraction of a second for performance numbers, and because we are an increasingly push-button automated society. The nintendo/playstation generation wants simple, and there is nothing wrong with that. I just prefer to do it myself.

So,

The RS3 is irrelevant for me and lots of others because it won't come in manual. That, and I have yet to drive any audi that had decent steering feel, especially compared to Bimmers.

Yes, I get it...you had me at die-hard!

+1

It's so weird how the automatic crowd doesn't get it? I know they think the same of us but the reality is that we are not buying transportation cars. We are buying fun. If we base our choices strictly on numbers, then we should all own Camrys! I hear stupid things about moms buying SUVs for safety....yet they don't handle that well, have lousy visibility and the fact is, minivans have the least fatalities of any car type! Yet they don't buy minivans because they are not cool.

It's the same principle with auto. We don't care if IT shifts faster because IT is doing the shifting. I want to do the shifting. Also, the greatest advantage is in 0-60 times which means using launch control, where the IT controls wheelspin and IT shifts for you. I don't want a google car that does it for me! There is no pride in a good launch, 0-60 time when you push a button and mash the throttle! I can't understand how that makes anyone happy. It reminds me of Cristiano Ronaldo jumping up and down, and taking his shirt off on a PENALTY KICK! It's a PENALTY KICK! You have a 99% chance of scoring...there is no pride in that but that is what automated cars do. The joy comes from making the beautiful launch and feeling like the car needs you as much as you need it. You need to time your shifts like a drummer and a monkey couldn't do that! But a monkey put in an automatic and given a treat to mash the throttle could do it!

So automatic guys, keep taking your shirts off on penalty kicks but us die hards want to make a beautiful play and score a beautiful goal.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by nachob

Yes, I get it...you had me at die-hard!

+1

It's so weird how the automatic crowd doesn't get it? I know they think the same of us but the reality is that we are not buying transportation cars. We are buying fun. If we base our choices strictly on numbers, then we should all own Camrys! I hear stupid things about moms buying SUVs for safety....yet they don't handle that well, have lousy visibility and the fact is, minivans have the least fatalities of any car type! Yet they don't buy minivans because they are not cool.

It's the same principle with auto. We don't care if IT shifts faster because IT is doing the shifting. I want to do the shifting. Also, the greatest advantage is in 0-60 times which means using launch control, where the IT controls wheelspin and IT shifts for you. I don't want a google car that does it for me! There is no pride in a good launch, 0-60 time when you push a button and mash the throttle! I can't understand how that makes anyone happy. It reminds me of Cristiano Ronaldo jumping down and taking his shirt off on a PENALTY KICK! It's a PENALTY KICK! You have a 99% chance of scoring...there is no pride in that but that is what automated cars do. The joy comes from making the beautiful launch and feeling like the car needs you as much as you need it. You need to time your shifts like a drummer and a monkey couldn't do that! But a monkey put in an automatic and given a treat to mash the throttle could do it!

So automatic guys, keep taking your shirts off on penalty kicks but us die hards want to make a beautiful play and score a beautiful goal.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Devon K

. This process has been reported here and elsewhere by those with 8 speed autos/DCTs.

Audi DCT is a 6-speed. As was the one in my vehicle. And I drove an 8-speed M235. The ratios didn't seem squished together to me. I was console shifting the same way that I did with my old car (6-speed DCT) no more no less.

[Tony]

I drove manuals for 26 years. Learned to drive car with a manual. That crap gets old after a while sry. And once I experienced a DCT there was no turning back. I'm also an avid motorcyclist (been riding since 14 years old)

prior vehicles:
1988 Ford Escort GT - 5 Speed manual
1990 Eagle Talon TSI -5 Speed manual
1995 Mistu Eclipse GSX - 5- Speed manual
1998 Audi A4 1.8t - 5 -Speed manual
2001 BMW 330i - 5 -speed maunual

in 1996 I had a clunker automatic for a year (got my own place)

Current (sold):
2008 Evo X MR. 6-Speed DCT.

I'm never going back to the old-school tranny sry.

[Diver]

The DCT in my 135i does not bounce off the limiter. It upshifts even in M mode. This has been criticized as not being optimal at the track for some driving styles.

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by nachob

It's so weird how the automatic crowd doesn't get it?

I don't get how you don't get that those of you who want to own a manual are in the minority (by a large amount). You're severely limiting the "fun" you can have because you're being narrow-minded and writing off cars simply because they don't offer a manual. Pretty soon there will be maybe 2 performance cars in the world that come in manual while the rest of us are having fun in our DCTs. And I actually see a lot more women than men now actively looking to drive manuals.

As I said I think every car should offer a manual and an automatic tranny but the reality is that for the OEMs the ROI just isn't there to put in the R&D to put in a manual since very few are buying them. If you give me a manual and an auto for a short period of time, then sure i'd love to drive a manual, but owning one day in and day out is tedious. And the DCTs are so good now that I really don't miss manual at all. It's still fun to drive a manual every once in awhile but it's not a necessity for me. I love banging out shifts from a DCT like I'm firing bullets from a bolt-action rifle and being able to focus on driving lines rather than worrying about shifting from 2nd to 3rd instead of 2nd to 5th on a sloppy gearbox when I'm in hurry to shift gears

TBH, I can drive either manual or auto and I'd probably slightly prefer the manual on a nice open road but if the car I want is only offered in auto, there's no way I'm writing it off just because of that.

[pkimM3r]

hey it does look pretty good though doesnt it? rs styling always has looked good though

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Diver

The DCT in my 135i does not bounce off the limiter. It upshifts even in M mode. This has been criticized as not being optimal at the track for some driving styles.

The DCT in my old EVO X MR wouldn't shift by itself in manual mode. There were times when I nailed it thinking I was in auto, expecting it to shift. But I was in manual and it just bounced off the rev limiter like crazy. Killing my drive. lol

[nachob]

Originally Posted by trinim3

I don't get how you don't get that those of you who want to own a manual are in the minority (by a large amount). You're severely limiting the "fun" you can have because you're being narrow-minded and writing off cars simply because they don't offer a manual. Pretty soon there will be maybe 2 performance cars in the world that come in manual while the rest of us are having fun in our DCTs. And I actually see a lot more women than men now actively looking to drive manuals.

As I said I think every car should offer a manual and an automatic tranny but the reality is that for the OEMs the ROI just isn't there to put in the R&D to put in a manual since very few are buying them. If you give me a manual and an auto for a short period of time, then sure i'd love to drive a manual, but owning one day in and day out is tedious. And the DCTs are so good now that I really don't miss manual at all. It's still fun to drive a manual every once in awhile but it's not a necessity for me. I love banging out shifts from a DCT like I'm firing bullets from a bolt-action rifle and being able to focus on driving lines rather than worrying about shifting from 2nd to 3rd instead of 2nd to 5th on a sloppy gearbox when I'm in hurry to shift gears

TBH, I can drive either manual or auto and I'd probably slightly prefer the manual on a nice open road but if the car I want is only offered in auto, there's no way I'm writing it off just because of that.

If I was just buying transportation, I wouldn't care but if I want "an experience" I prefer manual and yes, I will not buy a car "of this type" because it's not the popular choice. How could I in good conscience reward Audi or Lexus for not taking my wants into account? BMW, Ford, Mazda and BMW care about me so I feel compelled to vote with my wallet. So for the experience that I want, I want a manual and will not settle so yes, I called Audi today because I was interested in S3...but automatic only....game over, discounted, nice car but I'm moving on.

RS3, should be respected and if you love automatics, deserves BMW's respect, but if only automatic, moving on.

Sorry, call it closed minded whatever... I do it every day...I see ad for M3 or 1M that says "Loaded" I move on. Don't care what it says... Loaded is a bad word in my automotive mind.

.. I see a girl showing me her ex Boyfriend tattoo on her forehead..sorry, moving on...yeah close minded!

She's probably a really nice girl if I get to know her but lost interest.

[Wilson]

Originally Posted by nachob

Yes, I get it...you had me at die-hard!

+1

It's so weird how the automatic crowd doesn't get it? I know they think the same of us but the reality is that we are not buying transportation cars. We are buying fun. If we base our choices strictly on numbers, then we should all own Camrys! I hear stupid things about moms buying SUVs for safety....yet they don't handle that well, have lousy visibility and the fact is, minivans have the least fatalities of any car type! Yet they don't buy minivans because they are not cool.

It's the same principle with auto. We don't care if IT shifts faster because IT is doing the shifting. I want to do the shifting. Also, the greatest advantage is in 0-60 times which means using launch control, where the IT controls wheelspin and IT shifts for you. I don't want a google car that does it for me! There is no pride in a good launch, 0-60 time when you push a button and mash the throttle! I can't understand how that makes anyone happy. It reminds me of Cristiano Ronaldo jumping up and down, and taking his shirt off on a PENALTY KICK! It's a PENALTY KICK! You have a 99% chance of scoring...there is no pride in that but that is what automated cars do. The joy comes from making the beautiful launch and feeling like the car needs you as much as you need it. You need to time your shifts like a drummer and a monkey couldn't do that! But a monkey put in an automatic and given a treat to mash the throttle could do it!

So automatic guys, keep taking your shirts off on penalty kicks but us die hards want to make a beautiful play and score a beautiful goal.

So, let me guess, you're the type of guy who doesn't use a remote control for his tv because you like to get up of the couch and walk over and press the buttons to change the channel, because it gives you more involvement, more direct mechanical linkage to the tv, plus as you say, you don't want a google tv to do it for you, there's no pride in that.

Seriously, give me a break, you will grow to appreciate the finer things in life, including DCT's.

[Gaviin]

Originally Posted by Wilson

So, let me guess, you're the type of guy who doesn't use a remote control for his tv because you like to get up of the couch and walk over and press the buttons to change the channel, because it gives you more involvement, more direct mechanical linkage to the tv, plus as you say, you don't want a google tv to do it for you, there's no pride in that.

Seriously, give me a break, you will grow to appreciate the finer things in life, including DCT's.

Your comparison doesn't work. Having to get up from the couch every time you want to change the channel is just inconvenient. Having a manual transmission is not (for those of us who appreciate it, at least). It's fun, engaging, and rewarding. Let's us fully appreciate the experience of driving.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Gaviin

Your comparison doesn't work. Having to get up from the couch every time you want to change the channel is just inconvenient. Having a manual transmission is not (for those of us who appreciate it, at least). It's fun, engaging, and rewarding. Let's us fully appreciate the experience of driving.

So what if you had to wiggle your hips to shift a gear? Wouldn't that be more involving as well? You have to go through too much crap with a manual just to accomplish a gear shift imo. It isn't worth it. You might as well be wiggling your hips, that's how I see the "involvement". Pretty much useless.

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by Wilson

So, let me guess, you're the type of guy who doesn't use a remote control for his tv because you like to get up of the couch and walk over and press the buttons to change the channel, because it gives you more involvement, more direct mechanical linkage to the tv, plus as you say, you don't want a google tv to do it for you, there's no pride in that.

Seriously, give me a break, you will grow to appreciate the finer things in life, including DCT's.

Manuals make you part of the machine... part of the cogs. You are part of the machine...

Automatics, are nil and for those who can't be bothered with visceral, or intimacy... they just want to steer the ship, not be part of it.

[SmallTownBoy]

Originally Posted by Tony

So what if you had to wiggle your hips to shift a gear? Wouldn't that be more involving as well? You have to go through too much crap with a manual just to accomplish a gear shift imo. It isn't worth it. You might as well be wiggling your hips, that's how I see the "involvement". Pretty much useless.

That's Tw3rkn bait, right there. Maybe Ford'll work that into the new S550 'stang.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Wilson

So, let me guess, you're the type of guy who doesn't use a remote control for his tv because you like to get up of the couch and walk over and press the buttons to change the channel, because it gives you more involvement, more direct mechanical linkage to the tv, plus as you say, you don't want a google tv to do it for you, there's no pride in that.

Seriously, give me a break, you will grow to appreciate the finer things in life, including DCT's.

: ). This is funny.

I bought the first dct on the market in the wife's GTi!

This was even before Porsche and BMW offered it. So I feel pretty confident that it was before you even tried one. Since it seems like you prefer the finer things so you wouldn't find yourself slumming in a VW.

I was excited about it as an alternative to the
Slush box and paid my hard earned money for it. It was ok then and I gave it a try. It's been almost 8 years now so I feel confident enough now to know I still prefer a manual. Even funnier my wife drove my zhp recently and commented that she gets it now why I still prefer MT.

The finer things for me and about 10 other guys in the world is feeling connected and doing something different. Everything is cushy electronic now and I want something different. And yes I drink black coffee not triple espresso machiattos.

I also do other quaint old school things like rotate my own tires and work on my cars for fun! Imagine that!

[Tony]

Originally Posted by nachob

I also do other quaint old school things like rotate my own tires and work on my cars for fun! Imagine that!

So do I. What does that have to do with preferring DCT?

[HP Autosport]

4 door hatch vs a coupe?

It's still an Audi though.

[sgrinavi]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

No. This one will be exclusively for Europe.

A performance mustang exclusive in Europe? That's Un American

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by nachob

: ). This is funny.

I bought the first dct on the market in the wife's GTi!

This was even before Porsche and BMW offered it. So I feel pretty confident that it was before you even tried one. Since it seems like you prefer the finer things so you wouldn't find yourself slumming in a VW.

I was excited about it as an alternative to the
Slush box and paid my hard earned money for it. It was ok then and I gave it a try. It's been almost 8 years now so I feel confident enough now to know I still prefer a manual. Even funnier my wife drove my zhp recently and commented that she gets it now why I still prefer MT.

The finer things for me and about 10 other guys in the world is feeling connected and doing something different. Everything is cushy electronic now and I want something different. And yes I drink black coffee not triple espresso machiattos.

I also do other quaint old school things like rotate my own tires and work on my cars for fun! Imagine that!

I had a DSG GTI as well Mine was a 2006 MkV 2-door with the first 2.0T. Absolutely fantastic little car. I still miss it sometimes.

I've owned a ton (six) of manual cars. The DSG GTI was the only other automatic I've owned, and I can tell you that I much prefer the DCT to DSG. DSG is wired up like an automatic. You put the car in D and go. BMW's DCT is a little different in a couple of important ways:

1) The gear-shifter isn't a traditional automatic slider. It's not even the traditional BMW auto-selector. It's a four way, with very tight feel, and great ergonomics. It feels great when you use it to shift gears. It feels so great I find myself using it more than I do the paddles. Why? Same reason you (and I) prefer a manual; because of the extra engagement I feel when doing so.

2) DCT defaults to manual. When you slap the gear selector to the right, you're in manual mode by default. My car was coded by the previous owner, so maybe this isn't the default, but I absolutely love it. Defaulting to manual mode means that the car feels like it's a manual, but with the option to drive auto. I have to go through extra effort to be lazy.

3) DCT does a great job skipping gears. This was impossible with the DSG, and it's another huge difference. For example, if I slap three quick downshifts, the car goes from 7 to 4. It might be hitting the gears in between, but I can't feel them. I hated the sequential nature of DSG. It was one of the biggest reasons I drove it in D most of the time.

4) DCT has five shift programs. I can't stress how important this is. I was generally very pleased with the DSG transmission in my VW, but I found myself using it in auto mode more often than not because there was only one manual shift program. I can change DCT to shift any way I want. I alternate between S3 and S4 programs. When I really want to have some fun, my M-Drive button is programmed to S5.

The difference in all these programs is really significant. It's not just how fast it shifts. For example, in S3, downshifts don't blip if you're below a certain RPM. They downshift lazily like you would in a manual. Bump it up to S4, and you get nice blips on downshifts, but the shift speed isn't so harsh that it makes you cringe with each shift.

All of these factors add up to a lot of engagement. It's engagement of a different type, but as someone who was a die-hard manual addict, I've been really impressed with the DCT in my M3. I'm not sure I'd spec it on my next car, but I don't shit on it like I used to. I can understand why someone would choose it.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

1) The gear-shifter isn't a traditional automatic slider. It's not even the traditional BMW auto-selector. It's a four way, with very tight feel, and great ergonomics. It feels great when you use it to shift gears. It feels so great I find myself using it more than I do the paddles. Why? Same reason you (and I) prefer a manual; because of the extra engagement I feel when doing so.

Yep... The Console shifter on the EVO X MR's DCT is great. Spring loaded joy. And depending on the mode, it can shift more relaxed, or virtually instantaneous. I used it everyday. Banging gears sequential-Style like a race car or a motorcycle. I wont be using it with my next car. Stupid Audi has the "+" up-shift, and the "-" down-shift backwards. It was deal breaker up until I weighed-in all the other features it had that I wanted. Oh well. Nothing is perfect.

oh yeah. I absolutely loved the BMW 8-speed Auto. Didn't really feel any different than a DCT imo. Though I have heard that the gear shifts gets sluggish when the transmission gets really warm.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Tony

oh yeah. I absolutely loved the BMW 8-speed Auto. Didn't really feel any different than a DCT imo. Though I have heard that the gear shifts gets sluggish when the transmission gets really warm.

I test drove an M235i with the ZF8 automatic (optioned with the sport auto). IMO, there's a gulf of difference between the two. For day-to-day, Average Joe driver, the ZF8 is worlds better. The DCT has to shift between physical gears and actuate a (dual) clutch. This results in choppiness at low speeds that simply isn't present with the ZF8. The ZF8 upshifts and downshifts very, very quickly. Anyone who plans to drive their car in auto most of the time will prefer the ZF8. I don't blame them.

The DCT wins in the ability to skip-shift (I wasn't able to get the ZF8 to do this), in adjustability, and in overall responsiveness when manually shifting. When cranked up to the max (S5), the DCT will bounce off the rev limiter. It will grab gears immediately when you tell it to. It doesn't second guess you. Unless, of course, you're asking the car to shift outside of a range that the engine can even run (over redline or at an RPM that would stall).

The DCT also feels different. This is a hard one to quantify. The DCT feels like driving a manual transmission to me. It comes down to the lack of a torque converter. Even a very good torque converter still feels like a torque converter. The dual-clutch in the DCT feels like a clutch. My poor dad (also a manual driver for most of his life, and a committed gear-head) was so confused. He asked me, "Is that clutch slip I feel?" And that was from the passenger seat. I hadn't explained the transmission to him yet. As far as he knew, it was an automatic, but he identified the sensation between the sound, and the feel of the uptake when pulling away from a stop sign.

Anyway, this has been a real digression I've very much enjoyed owning a DCT car. It has been a contrast to the manual transmissions I'm used to driving, and has introduced me to learning new techniques after all these years of car ownership. I find it laughable when people (not you) imply that DCT drivers aren't "true enthusiasts".