[ThreeStripes]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I have always acknowledged there’s a difference between OGSM R1 and standard R1. I apologize if that’s how it came across.

I don’t think OGS comment was directed at you but meant more broadly as it’s common for people to reference the Nitron or Schrimer spec’s units when the topic comes up. I see it on here a lot and doesn’t surprise me as the nuance and technical aspects to conversations like this are often lost on people.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by ThreeStripes

I don’t think OGS comment was directed at you but meant more broadly as it’s common for people to reference the Nitron or Schrimer spec’s units when the topic comes up. I see it on here a lot and doesn’t surprise me as the nuance and technical aspects to conversations like this are often lost on people.

I do agree that people get lost on the technical aspects of suspensions even with HAS setups. I always differentiate the different flavors of Nitrons when making comparisons. I’ve never made a bad statement directed at the OGSM R1 and R3. My comparisons list exactly what was compared. Having tested a MCS 1WNR and a MCS 1WNR with custom blowoff valves the differences are huge and you’d think you were testing completely different dampers. So if OGSM modifies the blowoff valve then their R1 and R3 will have a superior street ride compared to all other Nitron versions. I just wanted to make things clear that I wasn’t misleading anyone into thinking I was comparing OGSM dampers to other dampers.

[ThreeStripes]

It’s certainly been a more cordial conversation than most “best tuner” threads

Enjoying the read and the knowledge I’m gaining following along. Glad to have found more experienced folks like y’all that I can learn from.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by ThreeStripes

It’s certainly been a more cordial conversation than most “best tuner” threads

Enjoying the read and the knowledge I’m gaining following along. Glad to have found more experienced folks like y’all that I can learn from.

Absolutely. This thread has been a wealth of information. It has me scouring the interwebz looking for more details, but there is a serious information gap when you want to get into the nitty gritty of damper function.

M3SQRD I really appreciate all the questions. I think you've done well in explanations and speaking from experience. OG Shark always impresses with his conservative stance on Nitrons vs the competition. As it was previously eluded to. If one has experience with MCS, JRZ, Ohlins, etc. The shop tuning these brands clearly has experience. I don't think it takes much of a leap to assume a custom valved suspension of a different brand would be expected to function as good as the main references in the category otherwise you'd just choose to run the best reference.

I'm guessing with a shock dyno and enough expertise you could mimic any graph you wanted?

We now know that the high speed blow off is reworked.

Next on the list is whether it will be worthwhile to attempt to adjust the gas pressures even though Nitron doesn't specifically endorse this function? Or is there valving that can make this unnecessary?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by ThreeStripes

It’s certainly been a more cordial conversation than most “best tuner” threads

Enjoying the read and the knowledge I’m gaining following along. Glad to have found more experienced folks like y’all that I can learn from.

I can only imagine what’s going on in tuner threads! I did my own research on tunes and went with the same tuner I used on my e92 M3s for a gts tune (track) and stage 1 (street). I wasn’t looking for tunes with massive low end torque. I guess I’m from the generation that’s used to making a decision without input from 100s to 1000s of people’s reviews.

There’s a lot of misleading information about suspensions on forums. I try to get people to understand the basic concepts of suspension tuning but, just like the ecu tuning threads, everyone who’s ever owned an adjustable suspension will chime in and muddy the water. Things tend to go a lot better when the discussions are limited to high-end dampers used on the street and/or track. The higher pricing filters it to forum members who are truly interested in gaining knowledge on suspension concepts and practical applications, not the set it and forget crowd. Altering settings and feeling the change in suspension response is the only way to learn and build a database on what changes should be made to address a handling issue. It also helps you to breakdown and describe what the car is doing at corner entry, mid corner and corner exit as well as under braking. This prepares you for the progression from setting up a 1-way damper to setting up a 2-way damper to setting up a 3-way damper. Working with a knowledgeable shop like OGSM also helps to prepare you to work with more advanced dampers.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Absolutely. This thread has been a wealth of information. It has me scouring the interwebz looking for more details, but there is a serious information gap when you want to get into the nitty gritty of damper function.

M3SQRD I really appreciate all the questions. I think you've done well in explanations and speaking from experience. OG Shark always impresses with his conservative stance on Nitrons vs the competition. As it was previously eluded to. If one has experience with MCS, JRZ, Ohlins, etc. The shop tuning these brands clearly has experience. I don't think it takes much of a leap to assume a custom valved suspension of a different brand would be expected to function as good as the main references in the category otherwise you'd just choose to run the best reference.

I'm guessing with a shock dyno and enough expertise you could mimic any graph you wanted?

We now know that the high speed blow off is reworked.

Next on the list is whether it will be worthwhile to attempt to adjust the gas pressures even though Nitron doesn't specifically endorse this function? Or is there valving that can make this unnecessary?

You can get creative with damping curves but when estimating the required low and high speed damping based on theory, the basic shape of the R and C damping curves take shape and adjustments basically scale these curves up and down (more overdamped or less underdamped relative to the baseline). Sometimes theory matches reality really well whereas other times they’re off and the damping curves need some tweaking. The majority of dampers are rebound biased (more rebound force than compressive force at the same piston velocity). A ratio of 2-3:1 is frequently used but I’ve seen plots with ratios of 4-5:1 which seems very excessive.

[medphysdave]

Looks like the Nitrogen fill needles are not difficult to source.

https://www.polyperformance.com/icon...UaAufUEALw_wcB

This one mentions ICON shocks specifically, but the gauge of needle is likely what is important and there are multiple sources out there on the web to choose from. I think the fill tool/gauge/valve would be a more important choice.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Looks like the Nitrogen fill needles are not difficult to source.

https://www.polyperformance.com/icon...UaAufUEALw_wcB

This one mentions ICON shocks specifically, but the gauge of needle is likely what is important and there are multiple sources out there on the web to choose from. I think the fill tool/gauge/valve would be a more important choice.

I have not seen a shock fill tool with a needle that has a chuck to close/open the pressure fill/bleed valve. They’re also a bit more bulky than a standard shock tool for a Schrader valve. You’d definitely want a remote reservoir because it looks too cumbersome to fill a piggyback reservoir without a 2nd set of hands. I’d be afraid of tearing the self-sealing bladder. A pro for picking the remote reservoir setup.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I have not seen a shock fill tool with a needle that has a chuck to close/open the pressure fill/bleed valve. They’re also a bit more bulky than a standard shock tool for a Schrader valve. You’d definitely want a remote reservoir because it looks too cumbersome to fill a piggyback reservoir without a 2nd set of hands. I’d be afraid of tearing the self-sealing bladder. A pro for picking the remote reservoir setup.

Yes definitely. I'm getting remote reservoirs. I'm lazy. I watched the Nitrons get filled in a video. Seemed simple because it uses a self sealing method. Push in the needle, fill to desired pressure, remove needle, screw on cover screw. I'm sure there's a valve controller readily available.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Yes definitely. I'm getting remote reservoirs. I'm lazy. I watched the Nitrons get filled in a video. Seemed simple because it uses a self sealing method. Push in the needle, fill to desired pressure, remove needle, screw on cover screw. I'm sure there's a valve controller readily available.

The ICON company has a complete nitrogen needle shock fill tool with needle, pressure gauge with a large open/close dial valve similar to a open/closed valve and fill/bleed valve on shock fill tool with a Schrader valve. What I don’t see is a fill/bleed valve. First pic is with the needle and the second is with a Schrader valve.

[m4shifter]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Sounds like it’s definitely something you could, and will, use often. Although, I always back into my driveway and garage, it would suck if I had scraping issues pulling AND backing into my driveway!

The Nitron lift system hydraulic pump is very compact and easily placed/secured in the trunk or under the trunk floor. Most challenging part of the install will be running the hydraulic lines which should be fairly straightforward. I’d run them internally from the trunk to the front and then through the firewall to minimize the chance of debris puncturing a line. The rear lines I’d run through the rear side air vents to the dampers or use the same routing as the remote reservoir hydraulic lines.

For what it's worth I was quoted 12 hours of labour to have elecTRON R3 (with F&R remote cannisters & dry breaks) and FAL installed. Believe the shop (a reputable one not too far from Nitron HQ) normally charges 3/4 hours of labour for a "standard" suspension change.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by m4shifter

For what it's worth I was quoted 12 hours of labour to have elecTRON R3 (with F&R remote cannisters & dry breaks) and FAL installed. Believe the shop (a reputable one not too far from Nitron HQ) normally charges 3/4 hours of labour for a "standard" suspension change.

12 hours for the et R3 + FAL sounds high to me. Does the R3 come with QDs for the front and rear remote reservoirs? It took me and my brother-in-law < two hours to remove the stock suspension and install the MCS 2WR. I understand a shop usually charges book time but installing remote reservoirs with QDs doesn’t add hours to a regular suspension install. The FAL hydraulic caps are pre-installed onto the dampers before the dampers are installed. The only thing left for the FAL is mounting the hydraulic pump, tapping into a power source, mount the controller and running four hydraulic lines. FAL labor should be <= suspension labor so I’d say a conservatively high estimate should be around 8 hours max. I’d love to see the breakdown on labor for R3s and FAL.

[bipp]

I'm definitely derailing this thread with non-e R3 questions, but I think a lot of it is to satisfy curiosity. I wonder if there's a fair enough comparison to be made at least for street use - with the intent of "dual dutying" this car for the foreseeable future - ex. "compared to BW MCS 3WR and TTX, OGSM R3 is just as compliant on roads" in the same vein that Track/S compared Schirmer/KW setups to MCS. It does track that Nitron R3 is a substantially cheaper option, coming in with springs/plates/remotes for ~$7k whereas the same for TTX or 3WR would be closer to $10k all in.

Tracking would definitely be a different argument, but we've already seen that there's no dispute about Nitron's on-track performance (even OTS, as well as Schirmer kits).

Originally Posted by m4shifter

For what it's worth I was quoted 12 hours of labour to have elecTRON R3 (with F&R remote cannisters & dry breaks) and FAL installed. Believe the shop (a reputable one not too far from Nitron HQ) normally charges 3/4 hours of labour for a "standard" suspension change.

4 hours of labor was my quote for coilover install at a "pricier" NorCal shop where I got my Nitrons installed - add another hour of labor for alignment. Another 8 hours on top for FAL seems strange.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

I'm definitely derailing this thread with non-e R3 questions, but I think a lot of it is to satisfy curiosity. I wonder if there's a fair enough comparison to be made at least for street use - with the intent of "dual dutying" this car for the foreseeable future - ex. "compared to BW MCS 3WR and TTX, OGSM R3 is just as compliant on roads" in the same vein that Track/S compared Schirmer/KW setups to MCS. It does track that Nitron R3 is a substantially cheaper option, coming in with springs/plates/remotes for ~$7k whereas the same for TTX or 3WR would be closer to $10k all in.

Tracking would definitely be a different argument, but we've already seen that there's no dispute about Nitron's on-track performance (even OTS, as well as Schirmer kits).

4 hours of labor was my quote for coilover install at a "pricier" NorCal shop where I got my Nitrons installed - add another hour of labor for alignment. Another 8 hours on top for FAL seems strange.

I have a guesstimate on the difference in lap times of a conventional OGSM R3 and a OGSM et R3 based on TracTive Race 3-way EDC vs. MCS 3WR. The difference isn’t going to be as large as a lot of people are expecting/hoping for. Biggest advantages will be less setup time, better driveability and a better/different overall setup. However, I’d love to see a direct comparison of both R3s installed on the same car with LSC and HSC set the same so it comes down to semi-active rebound vs. conventional/fixed rebound. I believe the Nitron DCU will perform better than BMW EDC (just like DSC Sport outperforms TracTive EDC and ACE controllers; state space dynamic models with different closed-loop feedback control strategies). A nice potential feature of the Nitron DCU might be the addition of aerodynamic coefficients to be included in the control scheme for cars with downforce. However, you’re stuck with the limits/methodology of the BMW EDC 3-mode system which explains the challenges OGSM and IL had tuning three coupled modes vs. tuning three individual modes and then switching between EDC C, S and S+ which Jason discussed above.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I have a guesstimate on the difference in lap times of a conventional OGSM R3 and a OGSM et R3 based on TracTive Race 3-way EDC vs. MCS 3WR. The difference isn’t going to be as large as a lot of people are expecting/hoping for. Biggest advantages will be less setup time, better driveability and a better/different overall setup. However, I’d love to see a direct comparison of both R3s installed on the same car with LSC and HSC set the same so it comes down to semi-active rebound vs. conventional/fixed rebound. I believe the Nitron DCU will perform better than BMW EDC (just like DSC Sport outperforms TracTive EDC and ACE controllers; state space dynamic models with different closed-loop feedback control strategies). A nice potential feature of the Nitron DCU might be the addition of aerodynamic coefficients to be included in the control scheme for cars with downforce. However, you’re stuck with the limits/methodology of the BMW EDC 3-mode system which explains the challenges OGSM and IL had tuning three coupled modes vs. tuning three individual modes and then switching between EDC C, S and S+ which Jason discussed above.

That's definitely interesting information and aligns with my personal expectation of how the DCU vs EDC will stack up. It does track that DCU will allow for further granularity of semi-active modes, whereas EDC might restrict capability in that regards.

For me though, I think I might be derailing this thread with interest in non-electron R3 - I think my options down the line will likely be non-semi-active options such as 2/3WR or OGSM R3 due to an interest in fiddling with knobs (and of course, the cost lol).

Kind of sucks though - realizing now that by the time I get my DCT replaced and fixed up, I could have just bought a remote 3W setup instead At least it'll lessen the blow a bit when I do spring for it, since it'll no longer be the "high score" of a single car-related expense.

[medphysdave]

I don't think it derails anything. My speculation is that the standard R3 will be better in most cases. I think the electronic component mated with factory BMW control might be a bit limiting or overly complicate things. I think these are geared towards people like me that refuse to give up any of the cars factory functions, but want as close to a premium track damper as you can get. And opening up a market to retrofit models with a adaptive damper and DCU.

You still have to adjust HSC and LSC manually for street and track. It will be really interesting to see what the recommended scenerios are for the different EDC settings.

In most cases. How often do you really expect to make damper adjustments once you've dialed in settings for your commute, back roads, and track?

[m4shifter]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

12 hours for the et R3 + FAL sounds high to me. Does the R3 come with QDs for the front and rear remote reservoirs? It took me and my brother-in-law < two hours to remove the stock suspension and install the MCS 2WR. I understand a shop usually charges book time but installing remote reservoirs with QDs doesn’t add hours to a regular suspension install. The FAL hydraulic caps are pre-installed onto the dampers before the dampers are installed. The only thing left for the FAL is mounting the hydraulic pump, tapping into a power source, mount the controller and running four hydraulic lines. FAL labor should be <= suspension labor so I’d say a conservatively high estimate should be around 8 hours max. I’d love to see the breakdown on labor for R3s and FAL.

Are there 4 hydraulic lines for 2 front wheels? Can't seem to find much info about Nitron's FAL online.

Originally Posted by bipp

I'm definitely derailing this thread with non-e R3 questions, but I think a lot of it is to satisfy curiosity. I wonder if there's a fair enough comparison to be made at least for street use - with the intent of "dual dutying" this car for the foreseeable future - ex. "compared to BW MCS 3WR and TTX, OGSM R3 is just as compliant on roads" in the same vein that Track/S compared Schirmer/KW setups to MCS. It does track that Nitron R3 is a substantially cheaper option, coming in with springs/plates/remotes for ~$7k whereas the same for TTX or 3WR would be closer to $10k all in.

Tracking would definitely be a different argument, but we've already seen that there's no dispute about Nitron's on-track performance (even OTS, as well as Schirmer kits).



4 hours of labor was my quote for coilover install at a "pricier" NorCal shop where I got my Nitrons installed - add another hour of labor for alignment. Another 8 hours on top for FAL seems strange.

Yes - rather puzzling to me why they charge 12 hours, considering they quote 4 hours for a normal coilover which sounds fair. When I questioned this they told me that's what Nitron told them, which is somewhat surprising. They even believe it will take them longer to complete the install but they will absorb the additional labour costs that may incur. If it takes less time then they will charge less...

They did offer me roughly a small discount off the retail price on parts though so it works out similar to charging me 6 hours at retail price I guess...


FAL system includes:

Hydraulic pump
Pump mounting bracket
Pipe work and fittings
Wiring harness
FAL Cylinders
Control unit and switch

So I can see why there is some additional time involved...

Separately, I have sent Nitron a heated steering wheel button to look into. I checked on ISTA it is a 3 wire button with LED which is similar to the 3 wire momentary switch Nitron uses. Hopefully that can be repurposed and I can have a OEM-like integration for the FAL.

[m4shifter]

Some interesting read of the dyno graphs on Nitron dampers:
https://suspensionsecrets.co.uk/damp...phs-explained/

Curious how the dyno graphs would look on an elecTRON variant compared to manual ones, though I'm not sure how you can dyno one without EDC inputs?

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by bipp

I'm definitely derailing this thread with non-e R3 questions, but I think a lot of it is to satisfy curiosity. I wonder if there's a fair enough comparison to be made at least for street use - with the intent of "dual dutying" this car for the foreseeable future - ex. "compared to BW MCS 3WR and TTX, OGSM R3 is just as compliant on roads" in the same vein that Track/S compared Schirmer/KW setups to MCS. It does track that Nitron R3 is a substantially cheaper option, coming in with springs/plates/remotes for ~$7k whereas the same for TTX or 3WR would be closer to $10k all in.

Tracking would definitely be a different argument, but we've already seen that there's no dispute about Nitron's on-track performance (even OTS, as well as Schirmer kits).

You also have the option of MOTON and AST, they have good prices.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by m4shifter

Some interesting read of the dyno graphs on Nitron dampers:
https://suspensionsecrets.co.uk/damper-dyno-graphs-explained/

Curious how the dyno graphs would look on an elecTRON variant compared to manual ones, though I'm not sure how you can dyno one without EDC inputs?

Most likely not the custom valved ones referenced in this thread.

I think I misread your post. I thought the dynographs in the article were Nitron graphs. I wonder if the eTrons will have 3 discreet curves.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by Track/S

You also have the option of MOTON and AST, they have good prices.

The main choices we have around here are:
- OG Shark for Nitron
- 3DM / PSI for Ohlins TTX
- Bimmerworld for MCS

I think I'm definitely inclined towards going with a shop that can help me get setup as much as possible out of the box, as well as with post-purchase support specific to the platform. Unlike you, I'm not mechanically inclined, especially not to your extent of creating your own parts. So for that reason, it's likely the most beneficial to stick with known entities with good support.

Originally Posted by medphysdave

I don't think it derails anything. My speculation is that the standard R3 will be better in most cases. I think the electronic component mated with factory BMW control might be a bit limiting or overly complicate things. I think these are geared towards people like me that refuse to give up any of the cars factory functions, but want as close to a premium track damper as you can get. And opening up a market to retrofit models with a adaptive damper and DCU.

You still have to adjust HSC and LSC manually for street and track. It will be really interesting to see what the recommended scenerios are for the different EDC settings.

In most cases. How often do you really expect to make damper adjustments once you've dialed in settings for your commute, back roads, and track?

I think fwiw, every forum needs a "general chatter" spot and I think we've sufficiently turned this thread into a OGSM fanclub / OGSM Nitron chatter / coilover talk thread. I mean, better this than multiple threads spread all over the forum for each setup, right? Sorry to Jason though... but I have enjoyed corresponding with the regulars here

Right now, I have a fair bit of adjustment in my setup through the ability to run different spring rates, sway bar settings, coilover settings. I imagine once I get a street rate for street tires dialed in (lol I need to get another set of wheels so I don't daily 200tws, even if it never snows or gets below 40 here) I won't fumble with that too much. While I've been fortunate to be land a job out of undergrad that allows me to pursue this hobby, I've unfortunately not had time to make it to backroads - I've pretty much been viewing my life as "work + grad school" and "track day! plan ahead for a break from work and school". Maybe that'll change - we have wonderful backroads in the Bay, but it's been months since I've headed there...

For tracks - I'm within a 3 hour drive of Sonoma / Sears Point, Laguna, Thunderhill, and Buttonwillow. I imagine I'll have to have different setups for each track - with it being easiest to twist some knobs, followed by sway bar setups, then finally spring rates. With that said, driver growth might come first, and I might be better off getting a "default" setup that'll generally work - from Jason's, BW's, or whoever's suggestion - then dialing in my driving ability and making small adjustments along the way.

To be fair - I think I have a great setup with APs, Hotchkis bars, OGSM R1s, various monoballs, and 275 square ECFs. I think I have a lot of headroom for personal progress before worrying about the absolute need for a 3W, but it's fun to dream and gander at the newest shiniest thing :P

[M3SQRD]

bipp medphysdave

It sucks you ran into DCT issues during your last track event. Any news on what the issue(s) is/are?

I agree. I like manually adjusting damper settings but that may change one day. From my limited experience with TracTive Race 3-ways (similar to R3et), the time delta between semi-active dampers and conventional damping is +/-0.25-0.50 sec. A major advantage is it’ll take less time/effort to dial-in semi-active setups.

As for adjustments:

Street - once you find street settings you like, you’re done with street adjustments. Probably four-six different settings to dial in street ride, assuming you have a recommended baseline. So six adjustments to find one setup

Mountains/twisties - start from street and either come up with a compromised setup that works everywhere or specific settings for different routes. Four-six different settings to find one compromised setup or four-six different settings for each different route. I setup one compromised setup for performance street driving.

Track - you can find the settings for one compromised track setup that will work well at all tracks or you can find setups for each different track. Additionally, you can chase the time left on the track due to changes in track conditions, weather, tires, etc. I have setups for each track. I used to go after the “ideal daily” setup but now I’d rather just relax between sessions and enjoy the track time. It’s not a race!