[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

The 135i cannot be compared to the 1M, period!

There is no understeer on the 1M unless wheel alignment is way off. The handling is very neutral but because of the stiff spring rate traction is poor on roads that are not perfectly flat and can lead to snap oversteer.

From your comment it is obvious you have never driven a 1M.

I have quoted keywords from Frank Isenberg and what have you quoted? Nothing but your interpretation. The M2 will not kill you without you knowing and that is why Frank Isenberg said

"You can feel safe in this new car, and confident in this car, you can go up to the limit without being afraid, it’s not as tricky. It’s less intimidating..."

Here's the thing - the 1M is a great car. I love it and I have mad respect for it - I tried really hard to get one back in 2011 and failed to do so, for which I will always be bitter.

With that being said...it is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. BMW didn't limit the numbers because they had a nuclear bomb on their hands...they had a very good car, sure...but the entire situation was a marketing experiment. Would the public buy an M car that was smaller than an M3? One made out of spare parts? Without an S engine? The answer to that question was yes...but in undeniably small numbers. The E9X M3 sold ungodly more - which is exactly how BMW wanted it. And those production numbers weren't kept low because everyone knew the car would be such a hit...

The production (which was actually increased) was kept low because BMW didn't want another Z4MC on their respective hands. Aka, over production which led to huge discounts on the cars that lingered on car lots.

Just because there are not many 1Ms in the world doesn't make it the best car ever. It is a very good car, yes. But the M2 is absolutely better in every single measurable and objective way. Period.

So you are free to like it better because of personal preference or because you like bug eyes. but those factors, in of themselves, do not make the car better or more special than an M2.

[brava09]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

E9x M3.....295 ft/lb
335i...300 ft/lb

At last check, 300 is more than 295.

You're wrong, the 335i had 295 lb-ft, the same as the E92 M3.

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/fiche5282-bmw-335-i-coupe.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series_%28E90%29

[Robin_NL]

I think a Nissan Altima(or whatever that bloody heap of crap is called) is a better car 90% of the time than 'any BMW for sale at the moment'.

This discussion isn't going anywhere.Trust me.



Cheers
Robin

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

But the M2 is absolutely better in every single measurable and objective way.

Agree. For those who have never driven a 1M (myself included), we can indeed look up and compare the measurables and see the M2 is empirically better. In a drag race or on a track, all else being equal the M2 will probably win - though it really depends on the drivers. Saw a Youtube video the other day where a GT4 was chasing and close to passing an Aventador SV... that was absolutely all driver! And the 1M and M2 are much closer than the Aventador SV and GT4 in performance.

But .... driving is more than data and measurables, and is not objective. When you get to the subjective, it can go either way... because the experience is, ummm, what's the word... subjective

No one can say the experience of driving one is better than the other. Can we perhaps leave it at that?

This should really be in the M2 vs 1M thread. How did the conversation on the 240i come to this?

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-1er

Agree. For those who have never driven a 1M (myself included), we can indeed look up and compare the measurables and see the M2 is empirically better. In a drag race or on a track, all else being equal the M2 will probably win - though it really depends on the drivers. Saw a Youtube video the other day where a GT4 was chasing and close to passing an Aventador SV... that was absolutely all driver! And the 1M and M2 are much closer than the Aventador SV and GT4 in performance.

But .... driving is more than data and measurables, and is not objective. When you get to the subjective, it can go either way... because the experience is, ummm, what's the word... subjective

No one can say the experience of driving one is better than the other. Can we perhaps leave it at that?

This should really be in the M2 vs 1M thread. How did the conversation on the 240i come to this?

Cheers
Robin

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-1er

Agree. For those who have never driven a 1M (myself included), we can indeed look up and compare the measurables and see the M2 is empirically better. In a drag race or on a track, all else being equal the M2 will probably win - though it really depends on the drivers. Saw a Youtube video the other day where a GT4 was chasing and close to passing an Aventador SV... that was absolutely all driver! And the 1M and M2 are much closer than the Aventador SV and GT4 in performance.

But .... driving is more than data and measurables, and is not objective. When you get to the subjective, it can go either way... because the experience is, ummm, what's the word... subjective

No one can say the experience of driving one is better than the other. Can we perhaps leave it at that?

This should really be in the M2 vs 1M thread. How did the conversation on the 240i come to this?

Of course the experience is subjective - for example, the new 718 will be faster in (again) every single application when compared to my 981. I think it even looks better from certain angles. I can't wait to drive one, to see how the P car application of turbos appeals to me.

Does that mean I will buy one? Probably not...but it doesn't mean my 981 is the best car ever either.

[redux]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

There is no understeer on the 1M unless wheel alignment is way off.The handling is very neutral but because of the stiff spring rate traction is poor on roads that are not perfectly flat and can lead to snap oversteer.

I love my 1M as much as the next person, but lets be honest. The stock car has plenty of understeer. Take a spin on track in a new M3/M4 and you'll see the flaws of the 1M's front end.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by redux

I love my 1M as much as the next person, but lets be honest. The stock car has plenty of understeer. Take a spin on track in a new M3/M4 and you'll see the flaws of the 1M's front end.

I have driven the M3 but not on a track...the 1M feels much more nimble and doesn't really have much understeer unless between corners and even then it is slight understeer and if I dig into the throttle harder it balances out.

With the short wheelbase the 1M rotates rapidly so I don't mind the so called understeer as it provides a point of reference for me during throttle input.

I found the 1M to be very sensitive to tyres conditions as well. With new tyres there is less oversteer and as tyres start wearing out handling go towards predominantly oversteer.

[Robin_NL]

I also had a bit of understeer on a semi wet Zandvoort half a year ago

But whatever.

Cheers
Robin

[ilovewagons]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

I have driven the M3 but not on a track...the 1M feels much more nimble and doesn't really have much understeer unless between corners and even then it is slight understeer and if I dig into the throttle harder it balances out.

With the short wheelbase the 1M rotates rapidly so I don't mind the so called understeer as it provides a point of reference for me during throttle input.

I found the 1M to be very sensitive to tyres conditions as well. With new tyres there is less oversteer and as tyres start wearing out handling go towards predominantly oversteer.

Let me be the first to say that I am a very average driver. I'm always trying to learn and improve, which is why despite working 6 days a week, I do 4-6 track days a year, not counting this year's BMW M drive day, which is where I decided to buy an M2. Before I humbled myself, accepted my limitations and started listening and learning how to drive my car, I sounded a lot like you. I'd just like to suggest that you join your state BMW club, like I did, and go along to some of the track days with your car and learn about it and how it handles. Best of luck to you and I hope you enjoy your 1M as much as I'm going to enjoy my M2.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

Let me be the first to say that I am a very average driver. I'm always trying to learn and improve, which is why despite working 6 days a week, I do 4-6 track days a year, not counting this year's BMW M drive day, which is where I decided to buy an M2. Before I humbled myself, accepted my limitations and started listening and learning how to drive my car, I sounded a lot like you. I'd just like to suggest that you join your state BMW club, like I did, and go along to some of the track days with your car and learn about it and how it handles. Best of luck to you and I hope you enjoy your 1M as much as I'm going to enjoy my M2.

I'm a big believer in advanced driver courses. Any of the cars we are likely to consider, you can get yourself in trouble quickly if you don't know what you're doing. Beyond that, once you do know what you're doing you can get a lot more out of the car and do it more safely. No downside as far as I am concerned, and it's a lot of fun.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

I'm a big believer in advanced driver courses. Any of the cars we are likely to consider, you can get yourself in trouble quickly if you don't know what you're doing. Beyond that, once you do know what you're doing you can get a lot more out of the car and do it more safely. No downside as far as I am concerned, and it's a lot of fun.

Exactly. You can invest in carbon ashtrays, spoilerlips and otherM stuff(great off course) , but you can also invest in yourself as a better driver.

We're not driving Toyota Corollas here, we're driving semi performance cars. Attending trackdays/driftdays will make you a 'better' and a more responsive and reactive driver. And it's fun too. So no wasted money imho. On the contrary.

Cheers
Robin

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Exactly. You can invest in carbon ashtrays, spoilerlips and otherM stuff(great off course) , but you can also invest in yourself as a better driver.

We're not driving Toyota Corollas here, we're driving semi performance cars. Attending trackdays/driftdays will make you a 'better' and a more responsive and reactive driver. And it's fun too. So no wasted money imho. On the contrary.

Cheers
Robin

Was raised by a physician who taught me early on that he didn't get paid big $ for the 99% of the time that things were running smoothly, it was for the 1% of the time that things went horribly wrong when knowing what to do and actually being able to do it was important. Broadly applicable, wise life advice.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

Let me be the first to say that I am a very average driver. I'm always trying to learn and improve, which is why despite working 6 days a week, I do 4-6 track days a year, not counting this year's BMW M drive day, which is where I decided to buy an M2. Before I humbled myself, accepted my limitations and started listening and learning how to drive my car, I sounded a lot like you. I'd just like to suggest that you join your state BMW club, like I did, and go along to some of the track days with your car and learn about it and how it handles. Best of luck to you and I hope you enjoy your 1M as much as I'm going to enjoy my M2.

Thanks and I agree my skills set has to catch up before I can fully explore the 1M. All the best to you on the M2.

I went to a dealership on the last weekend and check out the M2. I like it much more than the M4 and I am sure you will enjoy it thoroughly.

[ClothSeats]

Originally Posted by brava09

You're wrong, the 335i had 295 lb-ft, the same as the E92 M3.

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/fiche5282-bmw-335-i-coupe.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series_%28E90%29

Ok, well here's what I see..



E92 335i: 300 lb-ft @1400 rpm
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...oupe-specs.pdf


E92 M3: 295 lb-ft @ 3900 rpm
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...tory-final.pdf



Not to mention BMW's turbo engines tend to be underrated.. but anyway.

The point I was trying to make- There has been precedent of an M model having less torque than its "regular" counterpart.

In our case of F22/F87, the difference should also be significantly less than the E92.

[PrematureApex]

The N54 was always rated 300/300 in the US. As were the initial N55 replacements...again, at least in the U.S. market.

[scoale]

Would be more interested in suspension improvements