[chief1richard]

Was at Palmer Whiskey Hill track on 5/14 and came close to having a Bad Track Day. After 3 laps of warming up tires, took turn 7 too fast, and was heading to Tire Wall on turn 8 at Track Speed, at 45 degree angle full brakes applied. I remember the thought in my head that I am going to destroy my car, when I remembered my first Track Day Event Instuctor telling class that you can only ask your tires to do either braking or turning. Heading for the wall at the last split second I got off brake and turned hard right. Car instantly turned and avoided major damage. A fellow M2er put his car into a wall next session. Decided to dial it back to 9 from 10 the rest of the day.

[Megator]

This is why everyone doing trackdays should do skidpan/drift day and a safe driving course. It teaches you these skills before you need them.

The wrong way to deal with an iminent spin.

Note there is like 0 counter steer.

And here is me catching the slide and making the most of it haha.

Glad you kept your car whole chief.

[M2guru]

Glad you're OK. Was at the track Friday and had one lap where I waited to brake too deep and thought I was going to run off but didn't. In hindsight, I have been playing it through in my head and would contradict your instructor's comment about either braking or steering. It's not an either/or situation. You just have a certain amount of traction in the bank and you can use it on 100% braking or 100 turning or 50/50. In my situation, I was missing the turn because I was focused on 100% braking when I should have released some of the brake to use some of that banked traction for turning. The back end MIGHT have gotten loose had I done that - which is why I didn't. It's one that I'd like to have back to try something different. Do you have any video of yours? I am going to look for mine...have to look through 67 laps though...

[chief1richard]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Glad you're OK. Was at the track Friday and had one lap where I waited to brake too deep and thought I was going to run off but didn't. In hindsight, I have been playing it through in my head and would contradict your instructor's comment about either braking or steering. It's not an either/or situation. You just have a certain amount of traction in the bank and you can use it on 100% braking or 100 turning or 50/50. In my situation, I was missing the turn because I was focused on 100% braking when I should have released some of the brake to use some of that banked traction for turning. The back end MIGHT have gotten loose had I done that - which is why I didn't. It's one that I'd like to have back to try something different. Do you have any video of yours? I am going to look for mine...have to look through 67 laps though...

Sorry but I have no video. I have Harry's Lap Timer App. and had it on but for some reason it did not record anything. Still trying to figure that thing out. Yes I agree with the 100% traction application, in my case I needed 100% turning at last second to avoid the Tire walls, a combination 50-50 or anything else and it would have been a I have seen Jesus moment. Look forward to any video you have of your situation.

[Doublej]

I really love driving in the wet. I've had my share of sphincter tightening moments but it really can teach you a lot about car control, smoothness and limits.

[richard in NC]

I agree, skid pad training in the M2C really helped me get comfortable pushing the car. I did that last fall at Summit Point. I also did a few sessions at CMP last fall on a very wet track. Here is a few laps from that. I was in full DSC on.

https://vimeo.com/476874704


I just got back from Barber Motorsports Park. A fun track but challenging to master. Running in MDM mode on a dry hot track, I had a few "moments" during the sessions, mostly exiting low speed corners but a big one was in a blind right at speed full throttle over a crest (turn 4). The car got light and I did a big 1-2 second slide before catching it. I need to process the videos and post some of the action.

[pal]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

I agree, skid pad training in the M2C really helped me get comfortable pushing the car. I did that last fall at Summit Point. I also did a few sessions at CMP last fall on a very wet track. Here is a few laps from that. I was in full DSC on.

https://vimeo.com/476874704


I just got back from Barber Motorsports Park. A fun track but challenging to master. Running in MDM mode on a dry hot track, I had a few "moments" during the sessions, mostly exiting low speed corners but a big one was in a blind right at speed full throttle over a crest (turn 4). The car got light and I did a big 1-2 second slide before catching it. I need to process the videos and post some of the action.

Looking forward to that video. High speed slides are scary as hell. I've had the occasional tail wag at pace that a quick and slight steering correction will fix, but otherwise the sliding moments are on the somewhat slower corners.

Do you remember what you did with throttle and steering on this high speed tank slapper?

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by pal

Looking forward to that video. High speed slides are scary as hell. I've had the occasional tail wag at pace that a quick and slight steering correction will fix, but otherwise the sliding moments are on the somewhat slower corners.

Do you remember what you did with throttle and steering on this high speed tank slapper?

I believe I counter steered a bit and backed off the throttle a bit. No jumping off the throttle or the back end would have definitely come around.

The same thing happened at the Sandlapper Performance Center autocross on a downhill long sweeper. Hard throttle mid turn and I got a 1-2 second slide before correction.

[Dean_Clevername]

A close calls thread! These are always fun. Here's a 4th gear whoopsie from my first time out on Summit Main in the M2. The exit paint made things extra spicy.

Totally agree with Megator that everyone should do a school, car control clinic, skidpad day. Track speeds are a terrible place to learn car control. For my money, autocross is the best place to learn. A lot more longitudinal dynamics in play than a more lateral skidpad environment. To be fast at autocross you basically need to get comfortable inducing and carrying a little slip angles everywhere. It's great muscle memory training and a huge confidence booster.

[SEAT TIME RULES]

Originally Posted by Dean_Clevername

A close calls thread! These are always fun. Here's a 4th gear whoopsie from my first time out on Summit Main in the M2. The exit paint made things extra spicy.

Totally agree with Megator that everyone should do a school, car control clinic, skidpad day. Track speeds are a terrible place to learn car control. For my money, autocross is the best place to learn. A lot more longitudinal dynamics in play than a more lateral skidpad environment. To be fast at autocross you basically need to get comfortable inducing and carrying a little slip angles everywhere. It's great muscle memory training and a huge confidence booster.

I 100% agree with Dean...Say what you want about autocross:

1) Too much waiting around
2) Not enough seat time
3) Have to work when not driving
4) Slow courses/poor event sites
and soooo much more crap I've heard over the years.

Here's why Autocrossing will make you a better all around driver:

1) Forces you to look ahead (otherwise your times will never improve)
2) Every event is a fresh "course"
3) Its timed (see improvements)
4) Its wicked competitive
5) You will learn how to master the three "S's
SLIP
SLIDE
SLITHER

Slip is fast
Slide is slow
Slither is razor edge fast driving (only the top drivers can slither)

5) Experiencing Spins, and what to do during them.
6) Learn how to trash talk properly
7) Learn how to have a comprehensive list of excuses for why you had a bad run/day

A National SCCA Club Racing Rookie of the Year and multiple season class winner still autocrosses a couple times a year.

Of all the pluses I feel auto x has given me over the last 30 years.... none is more important than eye discipline. I teach that to all my track students. Especially the more experienced ones.

Where you look is where the wheel goes.

[booya_45]

Originally Posted by Dean_Clevername

A close calls thread! These are always fun. Here's a 4th gear whoopsie from my first time out on Summit Main in the M2. The exit paint made things extra spicy.

Totally agree with Megator that everyone should do a school, car control clinic, skidpad day. Track speeds are a terrible place to learn car control. For my money, autocross is the best place to learn. A lot more longitudinal dynamics in play than a more lateral skidpad environment. To be fast at autocross you basically need to get comfortable inducing and carrying a little slip angles everywhere. It's great muscle memory training and a huge confidence booster.

Post the whole session or least a couple laps. Would like to see your line. Nice save!

[Dean_Clevername]

Originally Posted by SEAT TIME RULES

6) Learn how to trash talk properly
7) Learn how to have a comprehensive list of excuses for why you had a bad run/day

....

Of all the pluses I feel auto x has given me over the last 30 years.... none is more important than eye discipline. I teach that to all my track students. Especially the more experienced ones.

#6 & 7 FTW No better place to hone your craft!

The eye discipline is huge. I feel like it was the first thing to go over the basically full season I took off b/c of COVID. Everything else is coming back quick, but that eye discipline is taking WORK to claw back all the good habits I had cultivated.

Originally Posted by booya_45

Post the whole session or least a couple laps. Would like to see your line. Nice save!

Thanks, it's a little hard to watch after the fact haha. In an attempt to not bogart the thread completely I won't post it here but if you click through to my youtube you can see a couple of laps free of traffic. The videos of whole sessions are kind of uninteresting because I had the wrong tires for TT (RT660) and only had a 5-6 lap window to jockey for enough open space to post a lap time before the tires quit and I pitted. Some sessions I never was able to find that window, which is something I need to work on if I do more TT.

[Megator]

Originally Posted by pal

Looking forward to that video. High speed slides are scary as hell. I've had the occasional tail wag at pace that a quick and slight steering correction will fix, but otherwise the sliding moments are on the somewhat slower corners.

Do you remember what you did with throttle and steering on this high speed tank slapper?

What Richard said, bit of counter steer and do not go 100% off the throttle. The more you go of the throttle/on brake the lighter the rear becomes and the less lateral forces it can absorb = spin.

Also use the whole track and look for an exit.

I started sliding at 110MPH GPS, caught the slide but felt I couldn't turn in a 2nd time to make the corner. Knowing there is a huge amount of asphalt runoff, I kept going straight to loose speed until I could make the hard left back on track.

[pal]

Whoa, good thinking there. When you're going off and there is run off, just make it a controlled off

Here's one at Buttonwillow from a couple years ago. Fast forward to 4:28. Tracking out, I realized I had carried too much speed into the corner …

[5.M0NSTER]

Good thread, glad to see you guys making the save. I have 2 I'd like to add to the list.

First one was definitely a case of steering or braking, not both.

This one was too far away from inside line, back loosing traction. Stayed on it and counter steered.

[Hawkdriver]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

Good thread, glad to see you guys making the save. I have 2 I'd like to add to the list.

First one was definitely a case of steering or braking, not both.

This one was too far away from inside line, back loosing traction. Stayed on it and counter steered.

Man! I think poop came out in that first video. Helloooooo waaaaaall!

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by Hawkdriver

Man! I think poop came out in that first video. Helloooooo waaaaaall!

It was definitely a moment. Run off room on the "Ring is measured in inches. And I used every single inch available. But still a save

[Dean_Clevername]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

It was definitely a moment. Run off room on the "Ring is measured in inches. And I used every single inch available. But still a save

Wow, talk about heads up save! Hat's off to you on that one. So easy to get target fixation as that wall takes up more and more of your window.

And that next one was huge too. Over a crest at speed on the Ring. If you can do it there you can do it anywhere

[Dean_Clevername]

Originally Posted by pal

Here's one at Buttonwillow from a couple years ago. Fast forward to 4:28. Tracking out, I realized I had carried too much speed into the corner …

Well managed! You certainly woke that course marshall up too haha

[Megator]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

Good thread, glad to see you guys making the save. I have 2 I'd like to add to the list.

First one was definitely a case of steering or braking, not both.

This one was too far away from inside line, back loosing traction. Stayed on it and counter steered.

1st one was a proper save, damn!

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by Megator

1st one was a proper save, damn!

Originally Posted by Dean_Clevername

Wow, talk about heads up save! Hat's off to you on that one. So easy to get target fixation as that wall takes up more and more of your window.

And that next one was huge too. Over a crest at speed on the Ring. If you can do it there you can do it anywhere

Thank you Dean_Clevername, I feel the same way. My life goal was to get to 7:55 BTG at the Ring, because as you said, if you can be fast there, you can be fast anywhere.

I managed a 7:52.4, with a projected optimal of 7:47. Definitely happy with that. Had lots of near misses trying to get there over 2 years.

And yeah, many spots on the Ring that can catch you out. I was ready for the 2nd one, that happens if you're too wide entering it, or if you carry too much speed over the crest.

That first one caught me off guard. Suddenly the car didn't want to turn or stop anymore, like I hit oil. But it was because I was off line and in the greasy, off-camber part of the track. I was lucky to get it to rotate just in time to be honest. A lot of brake pedal modulation and additional steering input in opposite intervals.

Great job catching that big skid! That was a huge high speed drift. Great work on the steering wheel. You didn't even loose much distance to the C7.

@pal Good work on your save as well, entered the sand and managed to come out straight. The corner worker probably spilled his drink on that one.

Megator I really liked your drift lap video, well done! Definitely gives you confidence to save an unexpected oversteer event

EDIT: I looked through my helmet GoPro footage from my last day at Nurburgring, and found 2 examples of oversteer in Schwedenkreuz corner over the crest. This time you can see me wrestling with the wheel Looking at telemetry I'm hitting 151mph at the top of the hill before the brake zone, and hitting the apex of Schwedenkreuz at about 112mph.

P.S. That shift you see and hear, that's INTO 6th. How many tracks do you know where you need to be in 6th gear? one of 2 spots on the RING where 6th is required. I frikkin love the Ring.

[Daytona_550]

Here's my little whoa moment at Barber's Turn 1 (and MDM saving my butt):



What I think happened:
I had been running 108mph fairly consistent on the front straight. On this lap, I pushed to 111mph but I don't think I backed up my braking point (or applied less brake pressure) and carrier a bit too much speed into the dropping left hander. The rear got a little light and stepped out. I counter steered about 60 degrees but didn't roll throttle, and I think MDM at that point took the reins. Good learning experience!