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      06-14-2020, 01:44 AM   #2091
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Found it. CS is bloody quick!

"The AMG drives the cleanest line, free of oversteer or understeer. In principle, the BMW M2 CS can do that too, but its easily controllable rear swiveling makes it more fun than the sophisticated one A 45 S. The mid-engine Cayman GTS is very lively and is the most demanding for the driver."
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      06-14-2020, 01:52 AM   #2092
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Found it. I'll translate shortly. CS is bloody quick!
This is absurdly quick for the class the M2 CS is in (I don't really know a good word for its class...).

The M2 CS is turning out BMW's saving grace in the enthusiast community for the 2020 and maybe in a year or two, depending on how G80 performs.

The CS in this test also show a better straight line performance than in other tests. 100-200 in 8.6s compared to 9.0 as normally seen. 8.6s is what M4 CS would get.

BTW, why do they test the AMG on Trofeo R? Ridiculous...
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      06-14-2020, 02:09 AM   #2093
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COLOURFUL TROOP

It's really colorful here, "says photographer Lena, when we meet to produce these three sports cannons in the picturesque Altmühltal. Indeed: No white, no silver, but three beautifully contrasting colors and a cautiously smiling sun - good conditions for a nice photo spread in the magazine.

However, color is not limited to the (lacquer) surfaces of the competitors. Even under the sheet, there are very different means to achieve the same goal: to achieve the best performance on the racetrack, which is particularly true of the top athletes in their respective BMW M2 CS and A 45 S 4Matic + series. The Porsche 718 Cayman GTS 4.0 in the Cayman GT4 has a big brother that is even more specifically designed for lap times. Although he shares the four-liter boxer engine with it, it delivers 400 instead of 420 hp in the GT4, its aerodynamic refinements are lacking, and it stands on fully everyday road tires. This also distinguishes it from M2 and A45S, both of which compete on wet-sensitive high-performance tires.
Colorfulness can be found under the sheets or the carbon parts, because the M2 CS not only comes with a chic roof made of carbon, it also uses the light material for the bonnet.

The three vehicle and drive concepts are also very heterogeneous. The BMW, positioned by its builders as a "high-performance vehicle above the M2 Competition" in the premium compact class, relies on the classic sports car drive concept with front engine and rear drive - BMW is also traditional Six-cylinder in-line engine, but here with double forced ventilation. The 718 Cayman GTS is a sports car and combines a mid-engine layout with the typical Porsche six-cylinder boxer, which is allowed to rev up without turbo support. Finally, the AMG comes from a rather well-behaved compact family and slides far into the sporting realm here thanks to a brutally high-pressure two-liter four-cylinder with turbo support. The rear wheels come into play with the clever 4Matic + all-wheel drive so that the compact, which is by nature a front-wheel drive, can convert its violent performance into appropriate propulsion.

Quite a bit of effort, therefore, that AMG has done to turn a well-behaved, high-volume model into an AMG - and the A 45 S confidently demonstrates that. With a lowered front ("Sharknose"), wide fenders with flared wheel arches and the expressive front apron, it makes a clear announcement; the rear shows performance attributes such as the wide apron, double tailpipes or the striking roof spoiler. The body stiffeners remain invisible, which in total ensure greater driving stability. The sporty look continues in the interior with a lot of sparkling chrome - the A 45 S shows its sporty claim with every fiber.

The BMW does that too, but in a completely different way. After the M-Kur, its muscular basic form, which is already muscular in the large-scale production series, turns into an appetizingly trained model athlete who proudly shows the closeness to the jointly developed club sport racer CS Racing. The demarcation from the M2 Competition can be seen visually from a lot of visible carbon, the carbon bonnet with the striking air inlet in the middle is only half as heavy as the sheet metal counterpart and together with the carbon roof lowers the center of gravity. The interior of the M2 CS has a pleasantly unexcited effect: although chrome also flashes here, the bling-bling effect is significantly less pronounced. If the huge monitor in the AMG with its countless configuration options tends to wake up the game drive of the touchscreen generation, the M2 CS with analog instruments and a pleasantly tidy cockpit looks more adult and relaxed. The "virtual race engineer" Track Pace (298 euros) of the AMG is very popular as a Trackday fan, because it not only shows the lap time, it also divides the track into sectors and helps to optimize the line.

The exterior of the Porsche 718 Cayman GTS prevails
black contrasting add-on parts (spoiler lip, air intakes, rear lights and diffuser) from its less specialized series brothers. Dark Alcantara in the interior reliably creates a sporty ambience. The analog instruments are a perfect match for the boxer vacuum cleaner, which is turbolosly as directly on the gas as the needle on the rev counter - a perfect relationship.

The different characters of the three test candidates are of course not only evident in their external appearance. The three different drive concepts with their different philosophies and their specific way of achieving top performance fit the overall picture quite well.

The A 45 S, which was transformed from a tame family compact to a high-performance athlete with a lot of effort, is particularly noticeable because of its tremendous will to occupy a top position in its segment. The engine is a superlative: With a liter output of 211 hp per liter (for comparison: a Ferrari F8 Tributo has 185 hp / l), Mercedes-AMG can boast, the most powerful supercharged large-series four-cylinder engine to have in the program. 421 hp (with 6850 tours) and 500 Nm torque between 5000 and 5250 tours almost blow up the compact class to which the A-Class belongs. There is also an all-wheel drive, which with two electronically controlled multi-plate clutches not only perfectly distributes the power between the rear wheels as required, but also has a drift mode.

In addition to this show-capable ability, the A 45 S has a simple and effective launch-start function that we used to carry out the acceleration measurements. This means that even the inexperienced can do the sprint in the 3.9 seconds specified by the factory, in which the all-wheel drive is of course heavily involved. One can only guess what it would be like with front-wheel drive, because the two-liter engine, which works with a maximum charge pressure of 2.1 bar, gets extremely powerful to the point after sorting out a gas command, that is, the corresponding ones , lower gear and boost pressure has built up. It all works very well and impressively, but it also looks very violent and rugged. You notice what you miss when you change the BMW M2 CS with 450PS and 550Nm (at 2350-5500 tours).
On the one hand there is the more distinctive sound of the in-line six, which, although it does not match the legendary old vacuum cleaners or the pre-OPF (bi) turbos, brings out more depth and melody from its short liter of displacement. It is based on the aggregate of the M4 Competition. A launch function is also on board here, which is very finely tuned and makes up a lot of ground, especially on the first few meters immediately after starting off. Also thanks to the high-grip Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (*) specially mixed for the M2 CS, the stringy Bavarian even undercuts the factory specification by a tenth of a second. In comparison to the extremely hot-spinning A 45 S, it has a smoother, more uniform and, above all, more easy-turning ability. This extremely pleasant characteristic brings the M2 CS close to a naturally aspirated engine, which is as important as the driving experience and responsiveness. Storms M2 and A 45 to 100 km / h exactly nose to nose (3.9 s), the 40 kilo lighter BMW pulls away with increasing speed.

If you want to enjoy the full Vmax of limited 270 km / h, you have to order the Driver's Package from Mercedes-AMG for 1666 euros. BWM, on the other hand, leaves its reins on its M2 CS ex works for no longer and at no extra cost and only brakes the urge to accelerate electronically at 280 km / h. Such shackles have always been foreign to Porsche, which is why the 718 Cayman GTS is allowed to run 293 km / h free of charge.

The manual six-speed gearshift of the Porsche is clearly captivating, especially in the era of the ubiquitous double couplers. It is also available with PDK, but those who like to lend a hand are very well served with the excellent manual gearbox. But how much time does self-switching cost when spotting? As usual, the boxer rattles wonderfully in the rear, the vacuum naturally does not have the pressure of the biturbos at low revs, but at the latest when you turn it off and properly demand the four-liter unit, it increases again properly. Although there is also a launch function here, measurement driver Guido Naumann achieved a better value with precise manual and footwork: 4.2 seconds instead of the factory-set 4.5 seconds go up to 100 km / h, which makes the lighter Cayman in the Test field in the back.

It achieves its peak performance at high speeds and shows the rear lights to the competition up to 250 km / h. Will that be so clear at the Lausitzring? Rather not, because as mentioned at the beginning, the 718 is the only one on road tires. Although he is the weakest of the trio, he is also 162 (M2) and 201 kilograms (AMG) lighter than his opponents.

With the shelliest - and most expensive - seats in this comparison, the Cayman shows right after the first corners that it is in its element here. As usual at Porsche, the GTS transmits the (grip) condition of the front axle to the driver's hand only a little filtered via the usual narrow steering wheel, while the right hand guides the shift lever of the crisp transmission through the alleys. The trumpeting of the engine based on the Carrera architecture sucks in the Cayman on the racing line around the track; With its slightly rear-weight distribution and the mid-engine layout, it is extremely agile and curve-hungry. But while Caymane usually pulls the line almost in one line, the GTS shows a certain unrest. "The 4.0 is always on the move, the rear pushes when braking, and understeers easily in long bends," reports Guido, praising the sound and engine and raving about the brakes. In the end, the stopwatch says 1: 35.48 minutes - only five tenths faster than the four-cylinder GTS.

The AMG grabs you when you turn in for the first time, because you rarely find such a snappy front axle, although it is here that the AMG Torque Control on the rear wheels, which regulates each axle, also helps the A 45 S to get ahead. Its rear end is easy in curves, but you cannot move the AMG without overdriving without drift mode. That is why the wild compact ultimately tracks the cleanest over the ideal line, the most extreme tires (Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R) in comparison are very well adapted to the ABS. In the end, the fastest compact takes a good half a second off the everyday Cayman GTS and clocks with 1: 34.93 minutes.

The BMW M2 CS also has very good bucket seats, even as standard here, which promise the best upholstery and the greatest long-distance comfort from all three.

With an extremely thick beaded steering wheel, the M2 CS storms over the piste, remains very calm when braking, even smoothes over the curbs in Sport Plus and sits exactly between AMG and 718 in terms of driving behavior. Whether true to the line and stable or with light weight , gently deploying and perfectly controllable rear swivel: The BMW oscillates perfectly between driving fun and clean lines - the decision is made by the driver's right foot. We look at the clock: eight tenths faster than the AMG. The M2 CS wins the track battle in 1: 34.11 minutes.
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      06-14-2020, 02:25 AM   #2094
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CONCLUSION

drive
Three characters: high revs, great sound and pronounced joy of turning in the 718 Cayman GTS; very high pressure, outstanding performance, screwed four-cylinder sound in the A 45 S; Biturbo with suction-like revving, striking six-row sound and top response in the BMW M2 CS.

Mileage
Both equipped with well-functioning launch controls, the A 45 S and BMW M2 CS make the race out among themselves. The Cayman GTS comes out of the curd better without electronic help and tops the factory specification. As expected, the sucker is inferior in the elasticity measurements.

brake
All three brake at the highest level, with the Porsche (fully everyday road) tires prevent even better performance. The AMG and BMW started on sports tires show no fatigue at the Lausitzring; large steel brakes are enough for the Benz to perform well.

Handling / driving pleasure
As the most active, the Cayman GTS gets full marks, engine sound, joy of turning and steering are top. The BMW M2 CS plays in the same league a little more, but no less fun. The AMG is very fast and lively, but overall not quite as balanced, looks a bit hard.

Lateral dynamics
With a sparklingly clean, extremely fun performance, the M2 CS manages the best time - seven tenths faster than an M4 with cup tires. On one level: the extremely true-to-track AMG, blessed with a snappy front axle, and the very lively, demanding Porsche 718 Cayman GTS.

Comfort
All three are very sporty, all three have adaptive suspensions, AMG and BMW with a little more comfort. The Porsche lacks sensible storage space, and the best all-round seats without weaknesses on long and long journeys are built into the BMW M2 as standard.

everyday life
The compact AMG scores with five doors and corresponding space. The lowest consumption in comparison and the fully everyday tires speak for the Porsche. With a little caution, all three are also fully suitable for multi-storey car parks. Workmanship and material quality are very good everywhere.

Price-performance
This is the hour of the Mercedes-AMG, because a distance of almost 25,000 euros to the Porsche is a big chunk - or the entrance fee to another class. The included carbon-ceramic brakes for over 100,000 euros for the M2 CS are steep - certainly not an easy decision for fans of the fun, exceptional athlete.

total
It's not the fastest who wins, but the cheapest, which has already caused a sensation as the fastest compact: the Mercedes-AMG A 45 S 4Matic +. Porsche 718 Cayman GTS and BMW M2 CS are extremely desirable athletes with many talents that inspire driving fun, but they are priced in a different league.
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      06-14-2020, 04:05 AM   #2095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
Found it. CS is bloody quick!

"The AMG drives the cleanest line, free of oversteer or understeer. In principle, the BMW M2 CS can do that too, but its easily controllable rear swiveling makes it more fun than the sophisticated one A 45 S. The mid-engine Cayman GTS is very lively and is the most demanding for the driver."
Great find - off on holiday and have the magazine waiting at home for me.

Anyway, is it safe to say the Cayman GTS 4.0 would have been the quickest with a proper semislick tire like the other two were running?

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      06-14-2020, 04:51 AM   #2096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapman1977 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
Found it. CS is bloody quick!

"The AMG drives the cleanest line, free of oversteer or understeer. In principle, the BMW M2 CS can do that too, but its easily controllable rear swiveling makes it more fun than the sophisticated one A 45 S. The mid-engine Cayman GTS is very lively and is the most demanding for the driver."
Great find - off on holiday and have the magazine waiting at home for me.

Anyway, is it safe to say the Cayman GTS 4.0 would have been the quickest with a proper semislick tire like the other two were running?

Ha. No one will ever know unless fitted. I know which car I'd rather have though. No contest.
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      06-14-2020, 05:00 AM   #2097
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Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Mine has been bulletproof. I wouldn't say I beat on it, but I've certainly leaned on it a bit. You also can't beat the warranty with included maintenance. Id have no reservations about going with Jaguar if it meets your needs. Just get something 2018 or newer so you get the latest Nav system. 2017 is like having an Atari in the dash. The meridian sound system needs to be fed good quality audio otherwise you'll wonder what's wrong with it. The paint seems very robust as well.

Edit: I think the wagon is super sharp.
So I've become a little bit obsessed with the F Pace SVR now.

I've just realised this scratches the itch I've had for the DB11. I can buy both the CS and F-Pace SVR for less than the DB11. Ultimate bonus is that wife loves LOVES loves Jaguars and this will be her car. Also. That SOUND the Jag makes!

This means two cars that are both the best at what they do. Two end of an era old school cars. Perfect.
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      06-14-2020, 06:32 AM   #2098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Mine has been bulletproof. I wouldn't say I beat on it, but I've certainly leaned on it a bit. You also can't beat the warranty with included maintenance. Id have no reservations about going with Jaguar if it meets your needs. Just get something 2018 or newer so you get the latest Nav system. 2017 is like having an Atari in the dash. The meridian sound system needs to be fed good quality audio otherwise you'll wonder what's wrong with it. The paint seems very robust as well.

Edit: I think the wagon is super sharp.
So I've become a little bit obsessed with the F Pace SVR now.

I've just realised this scratches the itch I've had for the DB11. I can buy both the CS and F-Pace SVR for less than the DB11. Ultimate bonus is that wife loves LOVES loves Jaguars and this will be her car. Also. That SOUND the Jag makes!

This means two cars that are both the best at what they do. Two end of an era old school cars. Perfect.
Thats the truth Davil , an end of an era.
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      06-14-2020, 07:59 AM   #2099
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BTW, why do they test the AMG on Trofeo R? Ridiculous...
Like any media comparison, they test the car on what tires it is delivered with from the factory. Being an old engineer, I take any track comparisons with a huge grain of salt when different tires are being used since that one single variable creates the largest possible variance in the tested outcome.

For example, in the upcoming track comparisons of the M2C and the M2 CS in the states (i.e. like C&D VIR grand course), does it make any sense to draw a conclusion about "how much faster" the CS is on PSC2 r-comp tires when the M2C was tested on a 10 year old street tire design? (i.e. Pilot Super Sport). It's kind of amazing to me that BMW is still fitting such an aged design tire when the PS4S has long been available which outperforms the PSS in every category, dry and wet, wear, comfort and noise...

I would much rather see the data from the cars on identical tires. In this case, take along an M2C with PSC2 r-comps mounted, and compare them. Given their past nature, if I were C&D I'd take along an M2C with RE71Rs mounted....just for fun!
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      06-14-2020, 08:16 AM   #2100
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I bet that GTS on Cup2's would smack the CS ass on a couple of tests..

And in the same way the CS on PSS would be a hell of a handful..
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      06-14-2020, 08:22 AM   #2101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
So I've become a little bit obsessed with the F Pace SVR now.

I've just realised this scratches the itch I've had for the DB11. I can buy both the CS and F-Pace SVR for less than the DB11. Ultimate bonus is that wife loves LOVES loves Jaguars and this will be her car. Also. That SOUND the Jag makes!

This means two cars that are both the best at what they do. Two end of an era old school cars. Perfect.
The sound is crazy good and never gets tiresome. I'll downshift under overpasses and put the pedal to the floor just to hear the incredible roar of the exhaust and echo.

Can anyone seem to translate the precise reasons why the 6mt seems lacking? I'm still going this route as I believe it will be more fun for me, but it has me intrigued.
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      06-14-2020, 11:18 AM   #2102
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I bet that GTS on Cup2's would smack the CS ass on a couple of tests..

And in the same way the CS on PSS would be a hell of a handful..
Suppositions ...
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      06-14-2020, 12:08 PM   #2103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLF69 View Post
I bet that GTS on Cup2's would smack the CS ass on a couple of tests..

And in the same way the CS on PSS would be a hell of a handful..
Suppositions ...
I did run cup2s on my M2, I know how much of a difference it can make on track.
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      06-14-2020, 12:13 PM   #2104
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Originally Posted by PLF69 View Post
I did run cup2s on my M2, I know how much of a difference it can make on track.
Absolutely and the RE71R is even better than the cup2 for an outright timed lap (or of course autocross where it's much better) hence the reason I mentioned it before as a ringer. Then again, why stop there? Let's use a still DOT approved Hoosier A7 on the M2C for our lap record comparison with the M2 CS. If the CS on cup2 is going to be compared with an M2C on 10 year old design PSS, then this A7 vs cup2 is just as "valid."
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      06-14-2020, 12:54 PM   #2105
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I did run cup2s on my M2, I know how much of a difference it can make on track.

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      06-14-2020, 01:02 PM   #2106
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Not sure why everyone gets so 'ramped up' on a few tenths of a second here and there between different makes and models driven by professional drivers on a track . . . a venue the overwhelming majority of car owners will never sniff?

If you are genuinely interested in track times and the like, then you damn well ought to know the tires are a HUGE factor. I am not a tracker . . . but it does not mean I was never a tracker.

I do not care to what anyone compares the M2CS . . . it is going to be great. That is not and has never been in doubt. The starting point, however, should NOT be M2 CS versus Porsche, Mercedes, etc on a track, or otherwise. It should be a comparison to the M2C . . . with equivalent tires, of course, if the venue of choice is a track.

Did BMW really give the consumer a $25K upgrade in performance?

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      06-14-2020, 01:27 PM   #2107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Absolutely and the RE71R is even better than the cup2 for an outright timed lap (or of course autocross where it's much better) hence the reason I mentioned it before as a ringer. Then again, why stop there? Let's use a still DOT approved Hoosier A7 on the M2C for our lap record comparison with the M2 CS. If the CS on cup2 is going to be compared with an M2C on 10 year old design PSS, then this A7 vs cup2 is just as "valid."
And you can get them at Costco! What whaaat. Very nice to hear that the CS can be tamed with some tire pressure adjustment. Mild to wild can be dialed in. GTS on trofeo R would have laid the smack down. GTS is superior track car all day, every day. Let's not pay games. CS is badass for what it is. Still up in air on the CCB, im drawn to getting CCB and then a lightweight battery just to getting the lightest spec.
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      06-14-2020, 07:53 PM   #2108
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Did BMW really give the consumer a $25K upgrade in performance?
///AVM
At the check-out counter: "Okay Sir, then that will be - wait, let me check this for you [looks at a document] - only $12,500 extra per 0.1 seconds officially faster for 0-62mph. On Cup2's of course. Do you pay with credit card or cash ?"
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      06-15-2020, 12:52 AM   #2109
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Ah so much hate.

$25k is pretty good value for the overall package. I reckon it's a bargain! Just what I want.
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      06-15-2020, 02:08 AM   #2110
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Originally Posted by PLF69 View Post
I bet that GTS on Cup2's would smack the CS ass on a couple of tests..

And in the same way the CS on PSS would be a hell of a handful..
Cayman GT4 is .8 quicker than CS on this track both on Cup 2s. So you'd think GTS and CS would be pretty close on same tyres being that GT4 is the track focussed version.

https://www.carscoops.com/2020/06/di...-on-the-track/

Not that I care as the Cayman holds zero appeal to me. I'd probably take the AMG over it. And I don't really like the AMG much either.
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      06-15-2020, 02:12 AM   #2111
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Why do you think there is such a hate around the M2 CS ? Also , we know the competition is a bargain , but it could be much more expensive , if the original M2 was still in production as well , the price difference would be bigger .
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      06-15-2020, 02:56 AM   #2112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbomeister View Post
Why do you think there is such a hate around the M2 CS ? Also , we know the competition is a bargain , but it could be much more expensive , if the original M2 was still in production as well , the price difference would be bigger .
You go to the baker and spot a shiny piece of bread commanding a 50% premium:
  • You: "Yo baker, wassup with that expensive nice piece over there ?"
  • Baker: "I used more egg wash to make it more shiny on the outside, removed an ingredient and added 10% more raisins on the inside: 45 instead of 41."
  • You: "But wait, 50% premium ?"
  • Baker: "As my dad used to say: «Son, limit supply and people crave for it»".
  • You: "Seriously, who buys this ?".
  • Baker: "Those willing to pay 50% extra for a rare shiny bread featuring 4 extra raisins".
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