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      01-08-2020, 09:09 PM   #1211
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
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Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Nope, the car is a bit richly priced and I don't think the CCBs are worth the added cost. I want them, just don't want to pay for them. The aftermarket is really starting to bring the price down. Since the calipers are the same as the CCB equipped cars I'll wait until I can get some lower cost discs. I believe surface transforms makes a disc that is superior to Brembo for longevity. I'm convinced the squeaking is largely dependent upon the bedding process. The process is long, intense, and I believe few go through the full process. Seems those that do don't seem to have complaints about brakes. I've read a lot of forum threads across many makes to come to that conclusion.

If you track with CCB is an absolute no no to use any traction control. It introduced too much heat. Tracking will burn through the discs unless you can keep them cool. I believe it is possible to successfully track them, but difficult. You really need a way to continually monitor disc temps.
Given that the CCBs seems to be somewhat "delicate" or "fragile" with respect to how you can use them in a track situation, what are the practical benefits?

I know there's little to no brake dust, but that's a cosmetic advantage. Are they lighter? I've read that they're also squeaky...just seem like more of a headache than anything.
They save considerable weight and I see Porsche GT3 guys tracking them all the time with stability systems on (yes I know they are better than BMW's but still). They either don't care about the high cost or replace the hole car before the brakes are done..
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      01-08-2020, 09:39 PM   #1212
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First M2 CS deliveries for Belgium are expected early Spring.
As of yesterday, my US dealer still had no ordering guide.
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      01-08-2020, 10:31 PM   #1213
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Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I wonder if the enthusiasm in the us market is lacking and they are hoping for good press in Euro market to get things cooking
I honestly believe the delay in the USA is due to BMW sorting out international demand first and figuring out allocations. Whatever is not taken up internationally will be dumped in the USA market. Given the results of the M3/4cs it makes sense that they are more careful about country specific allocations.
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      01-08-2020, 10:34 PM   #1214
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Given that the CCBs seems to be somewhat "delicate" or "fragile" with respect to how you can use them in a track situation, what are the practical benefits?

I know there's little to no brake dust, but that's a cosmetic advantage. Are they lighter? I've read that they're also squeaky...just seem like more of a headache than anything.

They are lighter, and less unsprung weight is a significant handling advantage. However, it's still in the realm of things that the above average joe still is unlikely to notice. In regular street use the rotors can last an incredibly long time (anecdotally well over 100K), and are sometimes considered to be "infinite".

CCBs are considered "higher performance" in general. This has usually been associated with more fade resistance and ability to handle higher temps, which ironically is the thing that can ruin the rotors. The rotors don't really wear out from wearing down like steel rotors do, they end up needing to be replaced from some form of outgassing from being overheated that I don't fully understand so I can't explain.

A couple of the Porsche guys I know that track heavily, and plenty of forum people in the PCA world switch to steels on their CCB cars for track days, and then back to CCB for street driving. When I was looking for a GT4 and then evaluating buying a used M4 GTS these issues came up regularly, and it wasn't common to see people mention that 3-4 track days and CCBs needed to be replaced.

There are a number of factors I don't fully understand around what the benefits are supposed to be past the weight reduction, so I'm not the best advocate. I've seen enough of the drawbacks, plus the cost, and I track enough that there wasn't any reason for me to go any deeper than the knowledge above on the issue. I've always been able to extract any additional bite or fade resistance I've needed, combined with streetability with pad compound selection. Brake dust is the losing battle though usually. My E36 M3 track car has TINY stock brake rotors, still weighs over 3200 lbs, and I've battled away the fade etc without issue, so I have zero concern with the M2's 15+" rotors involved.
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      01-09-2020, 04:05 AM   #1215
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looks fantastic, brilliant colour combo. i love the wheels too.

I'll pass on the GT4 if I can get a Spyder allocation. The only issue is the lack of available colours.

Enjoy yours, looks superb !

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Well guys, I have officially let my allocation for the M2CS go. I have been going back and forth on whether or not the car was for me for a few months now, and I decided to go in a different direction.

I was lucky enough to score a one owner, 2016 CPO 981 BGTS that only has 3K miles on the odometer. This was a local guy's 4th car or something and he only drove it on really nice days apparently.

I had a 981 CS a couple of years ago, and I lamented letting it go after the fact, so this is a way for me to try something new (never had a convertible before) while enjoying some naturally aspirated goodness. And since we already have an OG M2 in the garage, I can still get my ///M fix when I need it.

On that note, the M2CS is going to be a great car, and I am really looking forward to getting to see how they're received (and hopefully one in person at some point).
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      01-09-2020, 11:44 AM   #1216
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looks fantastic, brilliant colour combo. i love the wheels too.

I'll pass on the GT4 if I can get a Spyder allocation. The only issue is the lack of available colours.

Enjoy yours, looks superb !
Thank you.

The rumors are that the second year run of the 718 GT4/Spyder will offer MT and PDK (and I would want the Spyder with a PDK)...so that might be an option down the road for me, ideally another gently used/CPO that I can scoop up....
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      01-09-2020, 03:05 PM   #1217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Given that the CCBs seems to be somewhat "delicate" or "fragile" with respect to how you can use them in a track situation, what are the practical benefits?

I know there's little to no brake dust, but that's a cosmetic advantage. Are they lighter? I've read that they're also squeaky...just seem like more of a headache than anything.
They save 53.5lbs over the M2C 2NH brakes. And that's entirely unsprung weight and rotating mass.
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=34

If they were a smaller size, I'd consider them. But the possibility of rocks getting stuck between the caliper and rim is too much of a concern for me.

I believe CCBs are also worse when wet and cold.
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      01-09-2020, 03:16 PM   #1218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
They save 53.5lbs over the M2C 2NH brakes. And that's entirely unsprung weight and rotating mass.
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=34
Redneck math is for every 3lbs of rotational weight saved, thats 1 extra wheel HP. So let's say that the 53.5 is split among all 4 wheel perfectly (definitely not the case), that's 13.375 lbs per wheel. The 2 rear wheels are the only ones driving the car, so you're looking at a (VERY VERY ROUGH) 4.5 whp per rear wheel, or 9 whp total difference with the CCB's vs the steels. Now obviously this is crude math, but somewhat gets the point across. The CCB's are only part of the equation too, the CS wheels will be a whole lot lighter than the piggy 788 wheels, which will also help tremendously.
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      01-09-2020, 03:52 PM   #1219
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Redneck math is for every 3lbs of rotational weight saved, thats 1 extra wheel HP. So let's say that the 53.5 is split among all 4 wheel perfectly (definitely not the case), that's 13.375 lbs per wheel. The 2 rear wheels are the only ones driving the car, so you're looking at a (VERY VERY ROUGH) 4.5 whp per rear wheel, or 9 whp total difference with the CCB's vs the steels. Now obviously this is crude math, but somewhat gets the point across. The CCB's are only part of the equation too, the CS wheels will be a whole lot lighter than the piggy 788 wheels, which will also help tremendously.
Interesting point. The nuance there is moment of inertia - the closer the weight is to the center of the rotation, the less impactful it is to this concept. Put another way, 5 lb lighter tire has more impact than a 5 lb lighter rim which has more impact than a 5 lb lighter brake rotor. A uniform disc like a flywheel is a little accurate from where comparing one to another is even. Way back in my college days when we were required to calculate this stuff you'd reduce the mass down to a point load, generate the approximate distance from the center radii, and then create the moment of inertia from that. For complex items (like a wheel) you'd do the calculus to sum the parts and find the correct moment, or do approximations on various points and average together etc... but I digress.

My short point is - yep, less rotating mass, but choosing lighter tires by a few lbs would make an even bigger difference (for example the Michelin Cup 2's are actually 2-4 lbs lighter than RE71R's at the same size).
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      01-09-2020, 03:56 PM   #1220
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Quote:
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Interesting point. The nuance there is moment of inertia - the closer the weight is to the center of the rotation, the less impactful it is to this concept. Put another way, 5 lb lighter tire has more impact than a 5 lb lighter rim which has more impact than a 5 lb lighter brake rotor. A uniform disc like a flywheel is a little accurate from where comparing one to another is even. Way back in my college days when we were required to calculate this stuff you'd reduce the mass down to a point load, generate the approximate distance from the center radii, and then create the moment of inertia from that. For complex items (like a wheel) you'd do the calculus to sum the parts and find the correct moment, or do approximations on various points and average together etc... but I digress.

My short point is - yep, less rotating mass, but choosing lighter tires by a few lbs would make an even bigger difference (for example the Michelin Cup 2's are actually 2-4 lbs lighter than RE71R's at the same size).
Bingo. The closer to the hub the weight is, the easier it will be to spin that weight. I don't know the exact calculations, but I'm sure if someone was serious enough it wouldn't be too difficult, and would provide pretty good info. The CS, with it's lighter wheels / brakes (if optioned) / tires, and the extra HP, it will feel like an entirely different beast.
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      01-09-2020, 04:06 PM   #1221
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Well guys, I have officially let my allocation for the M2CS go. I have been going back and forth on whether or not the car was for me for a few months now, and I decided to go in a different direction.

I was lucky enough to score a one owner, 2016 CPO 981 BGTS that only has 3K miles on the odometer. This was a local guy's 4th car or something and he only drove it on really nice days apparently.

I had a 981 CS a couple of years ago, and I lamented letting it go after the fact, so this is a way for me to try something new (never had a convertible before) while enjoying some naturally aspirated goodness. And since we already have an OG M2 in the garage, I can still get my ///M fix when I need it.

On that note, the M2CS is going to be a great car, and I am really looking forward to getting to see how they're received (and hopefully one in person at some point).
Nice one! Congrats

I think a very good choice...CS will be for sure a very good car, just the price is too steep in my opinion for what you get...

CS was never option for me...curios about what they do with the next gen...however, for now I have not a very good feeling after seeing the latest renders / leaks for their next gen Ms...but still have hope that they at least will nail it with the M2...if not, gonna be happy to spec a GT4 and join the P family
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      01-09-2020, 04:10 PM   #1222
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Way back in my college days when we were required to calculate this stuff you'd reduce the mass down to a point load, generate the approximate distance from the center radii, and then create the moment of inertia from that.
Radius of gyration.
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      01-09-2020, 04:30 PM   #1223
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Radius of gyration.
Angle of the dangle
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      01-09-2020, 05:11 PM   #1224
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Angle of the dangle
I was getting dangle angle error codes for the longest, turned out BMW had to re-calibrate my plumb bob position sensor.
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      01-09-2020, 06:38 PM   #1225
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I thought this was a good video.

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      01-09-2020, 09:12 PM   #1226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado1M View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I wonder if the enthusiasm in the us market is lacking and they are hoping for good press in Euro market to get things cooking
I honestly believe the delay in the USA is due to BMW sorting out international demand first and figuring out allocations. Whatever is not taken up internationally will be dumped in the USA market. Given the results of the M3/4cs it makes sense that they are more careful about country specific allocations.
I think you are spot on. This is what they are doing in Australia now. They will only allocate cars that are sold. Currently 90 "orders" and 70 cars. I believe they are currently turning orders into sales.
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      01-09-2020, 09:21 PM   #1227
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Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
My short point is - yep, less rotating mass, but choosing lighter tires by a few lbs would make an even bigger difference (for example the Michelin Cup 2's are actually 2-4 lbs lighter than RE71R's at the same size).
Spot on. An 18" wheel with a dedicated track tyre saves a ton of weight. Years ago I ran 1" smaller with Hoosiers on an e36. What a difference. People forget about tyre weight all the time.
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      01-10-2020, 03:10 AM   #1228
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All I want is an M2C with a warrantied OEM CS tune.
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      01-10-2020, 06:50 AM   #1229
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All I want is an M2C with a warrantied OEM CS tune.
I wouldn't put it past BMW to offer this as an "M-performance" item at some point. Let the CS allocations fill out and then roll out the tune maybe Fall 2020 and price it at a level where those who want to retain the factory engine and drivetrain warranty will pony up. Of course they won't say that it is the "CS" tune, and all they would have to do is change one bit in the code (that does nothing) so they could legally claim that it is *not* the CS tuning I'm thinking $1995 or some such would do it. Kind of makes you wonder what the maximum profit point is on the price demand curve for such. Costs on BMW's end are minuscule to implement.
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      01-10-2020, 07:09 AM   #1230
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I wouldn't put it past BMW to offer this as an "M-performance" item at some point. Let the CS allocations fill out and then roll out the tune maybe Fall 2020 and price it at a level where those who want to retain the factory engine and drivetrain warranty will pony up. Of course they won't say that it is the "CS" tune, and all they would have to do is change one bit in the code (that does nothing) so they could legally claim that it is *not* the CS tuning I'm thinking $1995 or some such would do it. Kind of makes you wonder what the maximum profit point is on the price demand curve for such. Costs on BMW's end are minuscule to implement.
I agree with this and was just thinking the same thing. Tesla does it, so why can't BMW. I'd pay $2k or a little more for a factory warrantied tune.
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      01-10-2020, 08:04 AM   #1231
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I agree with this and was just thinking the same thing. Tesla does it, so why can't BMW. I'd pay $2k or a little more for a factory warrantied tune.
That's about what the MPPK tune on my 335 was from the factory.
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      01-10-2020, 08:13 AM   #1232
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All I want is an M2C with a warrantied OEM CS tune.
People who have driven both M3 CS and M3 Competition have reported that there is a noticeable difference in suspension and other variables besides the tune. It will be interesting when reviews come out.
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