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BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 Competition Model > BMW M2 Competition faster than Cayman S, M3 ZCP, Type R, C63S on Magny-Cours GP Track

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      01-16-2019, 11:10 AM   #67
bradleyland
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Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
It means that with a .02 second difference on a 2 minute course, with multiple variables, the differences in times are not statistically significant.
I never said it was statistically significant. I said the results are the results and that they're only a single data point. That's a pretty reasonable and measured way to approach these results, if you ask me.

Besides, who here has computed the p-value for test data they don't even have access to. We don't even know how many laps they turned.

On this circuit, on this day, the M2C was very close in performance to cars like the M3C, 718 S, and TT RS. That is as much as anyone can say, and this thread isn't exactly overrun with people breathlessly proclaiming the M2C's superiority. Everyone has been pretty measured when interpreting the results... With the exception of a few individuals who can't seem to stomach the fact that the M2C might be close in performance to their M3C.

Now I understand why it's so hard for BMW to make a car like the M2C.
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      01-16-2019, 02:17 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
I never said it was statistically significant. I said the results are the results and that they're only a single data point. That's a pretty reasonable and measured way to approach these results, if you ask me.

Besides, who here has computed the p-value for test data they don't even have access to. We don't even know how many laps they turned.

On this circuit, on this day, the M2C was very close in performance to cars like the M3C, 718 S, and TT RS. That is as much as anyone can say, and this thread isn't exactly overrun with people breathlessly proclaiming the M2C's superiority. Everyone has been pretty measured when interpreting the results... With the exception of a few individuals who can't seem to stomach the fact that the M2C might be close in performance to their M3C.

Now I understand why it's so hard for BMW to make a car like the M2C.
I suspect you missed the title of the thread...
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      01-16-2019, 04:25 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Now I understand why it's so hard for BMW to make a car like the M2C.
This
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      01-16-2019, 05:57 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
This
Actually, much harder to make something like the M5 -big car that needs to perform on par if not better than a focused sport car like the M2c.

I get that it might be tricky to not take market share away from something like the M4, alas, if one is truly looking for the "fastest" or "quickest" car, it is not the M2C or M4, it is something different (think Italian starting with A).

At the end of the day, the M4 buyer is most often looking for something different than the M2C - because if they wanted a true track car made by BMW, then nothing beats the M2C and yes, they should not have detuned it, that's bunk. But you know marketing people....
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      01-16-2019, 06:00 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Actually, much harder to make something like the M5 -big car that needs to perform on par if not better than a focused sport car like the M2c.

I get that it might be tricky to not take market share away from something like the M4, alas, if one is truly looking for the "fastest" or "quickest" car, it is not the M2C or M4, it is something different (think Italian starting with A).

At the end of the day, the M4 buyer is most often looking for something different than the M2C - because if they wanted a true track car made by BMW, then nothing beats the M2C and yes, they should not have detuned it, that's bunk. But you know marketing people....
I mean its not just the M3C crowd that gets butthurt that the M2C is basically the same performance, its _every_ car in the lineup. All you have to do is read the threads about M240i vs M2. The M2 owners immediately get butthurt when the topic comes up.

I'm bummed that they detuned it but I'm hoping its not rocket surgery to get us to M3C tune levels at which point this car is going to be even more awesome
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      01-16-2019, 09:55 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
I mean its not just the M3C crowd that gets butthurt that the M2C is basically the same performance, its _every_ car in the lineup. All you have to do is read the threads about M240i vs M2. The M2 owners immediately get butthurt when the topic comes up.

I'm bummed that they detuned it but I'm hoping its not rocket surgery to get us to M3C tune levels at which point this car is going to be even more awesome
????

I'm not sure too many on the M3CP side who are butt hurt by any of this or the M2 peeps being upset about the 240 with the B58 engine (awesome motor).

Alas when someone posts that the M2C is "faster" and the "facts" don't back that up, well they might have a comment or two....
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      01-17-2019, 12:41 AM   #73
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The M2C is demonstrably faster here. Prettt sure when you guys compare ring times they aren't all done on the same day with the same driver and in the same conditions.

But ok
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      01-17-2019, 12:59 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
The M2C is demonstrably faster here. Prettt sure when you guys compare ring times they aren't all done on the same day with the same driver and in the same conditions.

But ok
Demonstrably faster? Where, lol. The original post shows it beat the M3 ZCP by 20 milliseconds...

Last edited by chris719; 01-17-2019 at 01:49 AM..
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      01-17-2019, 01:56 AM   #75
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Let's just say it can keep up with 'much faster/more powerful/lighter cars on paper'.



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      01-17-2019, 02:00 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
????


Alas when someone posts that the M2C is "faster" and the "facts" don't back that up, well they might have a comment or two....
In World Cup/Olympic results even the smallest margin means win or lose/faster or slower.

So in this case what would you say?

I would say just in this particular case it IS faster. Who agrees?

Because when an M4 does 7:50 or 7:52 on the Nordschleife but so does M2C we have discussion too about the 0.02 whatever difference we don't know about( off course in favour of M4 because M4)


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      01-17-2019, 02:44 AM   #77
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Lol on all the ignorance and butthurt in this thread
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      01-17-2019, 05:42 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
In World Cup/Olympic results even the smallest margin means win or lose/faster or slower.

So in this case what would you say?

I would say just in this particular case it IS faster. Who agrees?

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I would say that in the Olympics (or any timed sport) does the athlete always have the same time?

And then I would ask “was a human driving these cars?”
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      01-17-2019, 06:31 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
I would say that in the Olympics (or any timed sport) does the athlete always have the same time?

And then I would ask “was a human driving these cars?”
Ha, I wasn't very clear I think.

In (car)races and qualification laps, the guy/girl/transgender in the car who laps fastest is on pole position and the second fastest would be at 2nd starting place, third fastest at 3rd starting place on the grid etcetera.

I have a question for you:
In this particular case at Magny Course France, looking at those laptimes, would the M2C be in front of or behind the M3C?

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      01-17-2019, 06:57 AM   #80
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This thread reminds me of this
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      01-17-2019, 07:32 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
I have a question for you:
In this particular case at Magny Course France, looking at those laptimes, would the M2C be in front of or behind the M3C?

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Hard to answer since the M3 wasn’t there at the same time?
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      01-17-2019, 08:02 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Hard to answer since the M3 wasn’t there at the same time?
Just like in qualification: It's you against te clock.
All competitors start 5 /10/15 mins before or after the other. Sometimes it's starting to rain, or from rain sun comes through and the surface starts to dry up.


You were talking about 'facts', what are 'facts' in this case?

We are talking about laptimes here aren't we? At different times the 'facts' are made by the drivers setting their laptimes in different cars on different times in different sitiations on the same track. Or on another track, same story.
This is always the case my friend. Also on Nordschleife and Hockenheim GP/Short.


Why is this 'fact' less important and when an M3(C) is faster on a particular track it's 'a fact'?



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      01-17-2019, 08:43 AM   #83
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I have to agree with Doug. The differences are within the margin of error. Filling up with different fuel or what you had for breakfast is probably worth 20 milliseconds of difference.

No one is disputing that it was ahead in the list, but to any reasonable person this is essentially a tie. Seems to me owners are getting a bit sensitive...
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      01-17-2019, 08:55 AM   #84
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Sorry for being overly sensitive:
I'm just sad M2C is a bit slower on Magny Course than M3C


On a serious note:

All other laptimes incl Sportauto Nordschleife laptimes are driven in:

different driving circumstances(outside/asphalt temps) different time of day, different dates(sometimes a difference of months or even years) ...even different drivers(Civic Type R factory driver with rollcage, Alfa Giulia Q idem dito or at least factory sponsored).

Facts vs facts. LOL.

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      01-17-2019, 09:03 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Why is this 'fact' less important and when an M3(C) is faster on a particular track it's 'a fact'?



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The fact is, the times are not statistically significant. It wouldn't matter if the M3 came out ahead, at .02 seconds, it is not statistically significant period - and yes, just like a time on the ring that is 1 second different - not statistically significant - although interestingly enough a 1 second difference on a 7 minute 30 second run on the ring is 8 times greater of a difference than a .02 second difference on a 2 minute run.

It seems you think I'm having a hard time with this because the M3 was .02 seconds behind - nothing could be further from the truth. As a former M2 owner, I know what a great car it is - as I pointed out earlier in the thread, a much shorter wheelbase coupled with a smaller gas tank can do wonders on a twisty course. Trust me, I'm not defending anything here - just pointing out, the numbers might as well all be equal. Would it help you understand this if I didn't own a M3?
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      01-17-2019, 09:13 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
The fact is, the times are not statistically significant. It wouldn't matter if the M3 came out ahead, at .02 seconds, it is not statistically significant period - and yes, just like a time on the ring that is 1 second different - not statistically significant - although interestingly enough a 1 second difference on a 7 minute 30 second run on the ring is 8 times greater of a difference than a .02 second difference on a 2 minute run.

It seems you think I'm having a hard time with this because the M3 was .02 seconds behind - nothing could be further from the truth. As a former M2 owner, I know what a great car it is - as I pointed out earlier in the thread, a much shorter wheelbase coupled with a smaller gas tank can do wonders on a twisty course. Trust me, I'm not defending anything here - just pointing out, the numbers might as well all be equal. Would it help you understand this if I didn't own a M3?
It's obvious you're defending your M3C my friend, no worries. I understand, you don't want a cheaper, heavier(...) equipped with an OPF and downgraded S55(way less HP than M3C) and smaller tyresizes equipped M2C than M3C to win (even by this small margin) driven by the same driver.
So you're searching for excuses:
-too small track/unimportant track
-temperature
-different circumstances
-laptime is almost equal
-etcetera.




NS laptimes by Sportauto:
OG M2 did NS in less ideal circumstances (moist surface areas) vs M4.
M2C did it too in less ideal circumstances(too hot outside temps) vs M4.


But anyway enjoy your M3C my friend.

And a win is a win.(in bold)

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      01-17-2019, 09:22 AM   #87
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But I stop defending M2C , I stop defending Magny Cours, that driver, I stop defending France(like if I did. ever....) as a Dutchman and shake hands with my fellow(US) forummembers.

Laptimes are nice for discussion, but to drive on trackdays/driftdays and Nordschleife is something else. We're heading for the Ring again this april.

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      01-17-2019, 09:26 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
I suspect you missed the title of the thread...
Please point out the part that is incorrect:

BMW M2 Competition faster than Cayman S, M3 ZCP, Type R, C63S on Magny-Cours GP Track
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