[M2guru]

Has anyone considered canards for increased airflow out the wheel well to aid in cooling? My upcoming track day on Tuesday is expected to be 90 degrees or so - warmer than previous ambient temps with my old oil cooler. Canards might be my next step...

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Has anyone considered canards for increased airflow out the wheel well to aid in cooling? My upcoming track day on Tuesday is expected to be 90 degrees or so - warmer than previous ambient temps with my old oil cooler. Canards might be my next step...

Good luck today. Interested in your results!

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Has anyone considered canards for increased airflow out the wheel well to aid in cooling? My upcoming track day on Tuesday is expected to be 90 degrees or so - warmer than previous ambient temps with my old oil cooler. Canards might be my next step...

Update?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Update?

You'll need CFD to design canards that actually do what you want to do, otherwise it could be useless or even hurt performance.

Extraction from the wheel well really isn't the main job of the camard, that's what cut fenders do. Like what Porsche did on their gt3rs:

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by F87source

You'll need CFD to design canards that actually do what you want to do, otherwise it could be useless or even hurt performance.

Extraction from the wheel well really isn't the main job of the camard, that's what cut fenders do. Like what Porsche did on their gt3rs:

Perhaps on needing CDF for canards. Have been looking at fender vents, too. Canards seemed like an easier first step.

Here is a log of one session with the new do88 oil cooler. Seems to have had a 10-20 degree benefit to the oil temp. I haven't looked at it in detail yet, so you may beat me to conclusions... https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=64f7...729b2b8f4ab396

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Perhaps on needing CDF for canards. Have been looking at fender vents, too. Canards seemed like an easier first step.

Here is a log of one session with the new do88 oil cooler. Seems to have had a 10-20 degree benefit to the oil temp. I haven't looked at it in detail yet, so you may beat me to conclusions... https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=64f7...729b2b8f4ab396

Coolant and oil temps look good.

Compared to my recent log with similar ambient, my IATs average 20F lower and I’m probably 70whp more and my Vmax was 10mph higher—highlighting the limits of the CSF IC. https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7c187c090c66632f032b3

Altho, your coolant temps were much more in check and not as directly trending with oil as mine were. And, your stock main & aux radiators while I’m do88. Still makes me think airflow to the radiator is a big factor for coolant temps.

Power is definitely getting pulled for you with the high IATs, so we may be as far as 80-90whp apart. That’s also helping reduce your engine cooling req.

Will be very interested in seeing what happens with all your temps once you change IC’s.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Perhaps on needing CDF for canards. Have been looking at fender vents, too. Canards seemed like an easier first step.

Here is a log of one session with the new do88 oil cooler. Seems to have had a 10-20 degree benefit to the oil temp. I haven't looked at it in detail yet, so you may beat me to conclusions... https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=64f7...729b2b8f4ab396

Canards will need CFD design to make properly so it won't be cheap at all.

Fender vents won't work at all on this car unless you vent the fenderiner, otherwise it'll just vent engine bay air via the engine bay fender gap.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

You'll need CFD to design canards that actually do what you want to do, otherwise it could be useless or even hurt performance.

Extraction from the wheel well really isn't the main job of the camard, that's what cut fenders do. Like what Porsche did on their gt3rs:

Lol, I appreciate the response, but I was talking about M2guru's track day.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Lol, I appreciate the response, but I was talking about M2guru's track day.

Haha, i know I just wanted to tag on to it since you commented on the same thing.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Perhaps on needing CDF for canards. Have been looking at fender vents, too. Canards seemed like an easier first step.

Here is a log of one session with the new do88 oil cooler. Seems to have had a 10-20 degree benefit to the oil temp. I haven't looked at it in detail yet, so you may beat me to conclusions... https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=64f7...729b2b8f4ab396

I don't know about anyone else, but I see this as an absolute win, this is an even bigger improvement over the CSF than I anticipated. For people who are FBO and tracking - an upgraded oil cooler, thermostat and max cool seem sufficient for the worst days.


For someone like ZM2 and his big turbo set up, that will take a little more thought. I still think there is a benefit on his setup to delete the heat exchanger. I don't think it's a coolant airflow issue, as the auxiliary cooler is unimpeded - while the DCT cooler and intercooler blocking the front don't help.

Yeah, he's running about 100whp more - and his oil temps have come in line, but that exchanger is likely adding thermal capacity to the oil cooler.

The easiest thing to do (less custom work) would be a new intercooler. Unless you HATE VRSF, you can wait on more reviews for the MAD Race intercooler. They both are shorter than the EVO3 by around 3-4 inches, so much so that they are actually behind the bumper cover while the EVO3 sits above it.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Haha, i know I just wanted to tag on to it since you commented on the same thing.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I don't know about anyone else, but I see this as an absolute win, this is an even bigger improvement over the CSF than I anticipated. For people who are FBO and tracking - an upgraded oil cooler, thermostat and max cool seem sufficient for the worst days.


For someone like ZM2 and his big turbo set up, that will take a little more thought. I still think there is a benefit on his setup to delete the heat exchanger. I don't think it's a coolant airflow issue, as the auxiliary cooler is unimpeded - while the DCT cooler and intercooler blocking the front don't help.

Yeah, he's running about 100whp more - and his oil temps have come in line, but that exchanger is likely adding thermal capacity to the oil cooler.

The easiest thing to do (less custom work) would be a new intercooler. Unless you HATE VRSF, you can wait on more reviews for the MAD Race intercooler. They both are shorter than the EVO3 by around 3-4 inches, so much so that they are actually behind the bumper cover while the EVO3 sits above it.

Og shark was fbo and has the full d088 coming system and it still wasn't enough. Coolant temps still reached limp mode, oil got to near limp mode as well.

It's coolant temps that is the unsolvable issue because the radiator lacks surface area.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Og shark was fbo and has the full d088 coming system and it still wasn't enough. Coolant temps still reached limp mode, oil got to near limp mode as well.

It's coolant temps that is the unsolvable issue because the radiator lacks surface area.

OG Shark didn't have a lower oil thermostat or Max cool. Pretty much everyone else solved this issue with more oil cooling, including removing the coolant heat exchanger.

Either way, a new intercooler is going to bring down his IATs - so that's pretty nifty.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

OG Shark didn't have a lower oil thermostat or Max cool. Pretty much everyone else solved this issue with more oil cooling, including removing the coolant heat exchanger.

Either way, a new intercooler is going to bring down his IATs - so that's pretty nifty.

Max cool just makes the water pump and fan run 100% duty cycle, and opens the thermostat 100%. This already happens by default when you're running sport + and temps get high especially near limp mode. An oil thermostat doesn't change anything it just buys you more time before you reach limp mode by allowing you to start at a lower oil temp.


So none of those factors would do anything for cooling capacity, they would just buy you a few more laps.

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I still think there is a benefit on his setup to delete the heat exchanger. I don't think it's a coolant airflow issue, as the auxiliary cooler is unimpeded - while the DCT cooler and intercooler blocking the front don't help.

I had taken a brief/quick look at the oil to coolant temp correlation and didn't come to any quick conclusions. Initially, it does look like the coolant keeps the oil temps up, but I want to look more closely. It kinda seems like it might be a give and take - they keep each other in check and close in number. Anyone have insight before I dig into it?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by M2guru

I had taken a brief/quick look at the oil to coolant temp correlation and didn't come to any quick conclusions. Initially, it does look like the coolant keeps the oil temps up, but I want to look more closely. It kinda seems like it might be a give and take - they keep each other in check and close in number. Anyone have insight before I dig into it?

On this, anyone know if there are more BM3 RAM channels that can be logged which would give coolant and oil temps in different parts of the two loops?

That could tell us the impact of the radiators/coolers and exchanger, good or bad.

Edit: Here are the only other two engine temp related channels I found. No idea if they work or would provide us with diff temps in the coolant loop.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

On this, anyone know if there are more BM3 RAM channels that can be logged which would give coolant and oil temps in different parts of the two loops?

That could tell us the impact of the radiators/coolers and exchanger, good or bad.

Edit: Here are the only other two engine temp related channels I found. No idea if they work or would provide us with diff temps in the coolant loop.

I don't think there are any other coolant or oil sensors on the m2 besides the existing ones. So the other values might just be spoofed data from the existing sensors. I could be wrong though.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Max cool just makes the water pump and fan run 100% duty cycle, and opens the thermostat 100%. This already happens by default when you're running sport + and temps get high especially near limp mode. An oil thermostat doesn't change anything it just buys you more time before you reach limp mode by allowing you to start at a lower oil temp.


So none of those factors would do anything for cooling capacity, they would just buy you a few more laps.

Yes and no. Yes, the car is in maximum duty cycle, so the thermostat opens sooner and provides more head room for coolant. So instead of the coolant starting to flow through the auxiliary cooler at 200F - it starts at 165F. (Look at Zm2's first log)

The issue is while the coolant starts this low, it's picking up heat from the oil which starts opening it's thermostat later. So OG's Shark's issue was that his coolant was starting to open up at 195 once the car was already heated up and oil was starting to move through the coolers at 220?F, effectively cutting his headroom by a considerable margin.

Originally Posted by M2guru

I had taken a brief/quick look at the oil to coolant temp correlation and didn't come to any quick conclusions. Initially, it does look like the coolant keeps the oil temps up, but I want to look more closely. It kinda seems like it might be a give and take - they keep each other in check and close in number. Anyone have insight before I dig into it?

The coolant is keeping the oil temps down, water/coolant cools down quicker than oil does, so it can shed heat generated by the oil faster. With the new oil cooler and thermostat, your car is doing two things - Starting the oil flow sooner and cooling it more effectively, making the coolant's job easier.

Originally Posted by ZM2

On this, anyone know if there are there more BM3 RAM channels that can be logged which would give coolant and oil temps in different parts of the two loops?

That could tell us the impact of the radiators/coolers and exchanger, good or bad.

[M2guru]

Data incorporated onto video:

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Yes and no. Yes, the car is in maximum duty cycle, so the thermostat opens sooner and provides more head room for coolant. So instead of the coolant starting to flow through the auxiliary cooler at 200F - it starts at 165F. (Look at Zm2's first log)

The issue is while the coolant starts this low, it's picking up heat from the oil which starts opening it's thermostat later. So OG's Shark's issue was that his coolant was starting to open up at 195 once the car was already heated up and oil was starting to move through the coolers at 220?F, effectively cutting his headroom by a considerable margin.




The coolant is keeping the oil temps down, water/coolant cools down quicker than oil does, so it can shed heat generated by the oil faster. With the new oil cooler and thermostat, your car is doing two things - Starting the oil flow sooner and cooling it more effectively, making the coolant's job easier.

That's not more head room, you're only buying yourself a few extra laps. Peak temperatures when the cooling system reaches thermal equilibrium is dictated by the amount of thermal exchange surface area.

So pretty much in the simplest possible representation peak temps (thermal head room/thermal equilibrium) = max heat output - max thermal dissipation.

No where is starting temperature part of this equation, starting temperature only dictates how long it takes to get to thermal equilibrium because the specific heat capacity of the cooling fluid can absorb said energy before it changes temps. Oil and coolant heat interchange also doesn't matter because that will have its own equilibrium that again is dictated by thermal dissipation surface area. Even if you start with temps in absolute zero, it will still not be able to change your head room you'll get more laps but eventually it will reach the limits of your thermal dissipation surface area. An analogy is a bath tub filling with water. If water flows in faster than it drains then it will over flow. Water being the heat the drain is the heat exchanger surface area. If you start at a lower later level (lower coolant temps) then you get a bit longer before the tub over flows. But regardless of what water level you stay at if the draining isn't as fast as the filling you'll over flow. That's an indisputable fact there is no yes or no or maybe, that's just how physics works.

Ambient temperatures also play a part, but it's tied to thermal dissipation surface area. It's also something we largely can't manipulate so it's not important to consider.


The only important thing that matters is if you have enough thermal dissipation surface area to cool your heat generation.

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by F87source

Ambient temperatures also play a part, but it's tied to thermal dissipation surface area. It's also something we largely can't manipulate so it's not important to consider.


The only important thing that matters is if you have enough thermal dissipation surface area to cool your heat generation.

I am hoping to improve the effectiveness of that thermal dissipation of the surface area I have. The heat exchanger is one part of that system. Another part is the flow of air - one reason I am looking at canards, fender vents, fender liners, and hood vents. That will likely be around the same time as radiator and aux radiator although that changes the surface area itself and not necessarily the effectiveness of it.

[ThreeStripes]

Came across these guys and thought I’d share.

https://headershield.com/

You ship parts to them which means downtime but the results seem enticing.

Having them insulate the turbo, manifold, and downpipe could be one more puzzle piece to the solution. Hell they even do intakes and charge piping.