[yoboi]

Originally Posted by adc

Exactly.

E36 was slightly better perhaps than E46 ZHP (best E46 system), E90 was significantly worse, F80 with good alignment and plates is a little worse than E90, and none of them are even half as good as a 997 or 986 etc.

I usually see comments about how good their E46 steering was, or their E90, but unless you've driven an older Porsche, or Elise, or similar, you really have no basis for assessment. The difference really is that much.

For example, my X3 has hydraulic steering but it isn't better than the F80. Just because it's hydraulic doesn't mean it's good.


It was interesting that to me, driving a stock M2C back to back with my M3 (ZCP, stock wheels, camber plates with -2.6 degrees), the M2 felt worse - too light with little feedback around the straight ahead. I'm not an expert but I believe a good alignment can get an EPS to feel a bit more natural, the way it loads and unloads in the corners.

Totally relate to this. I currently have an Elise, M2C, Spec NB1 with depowered steering, and S2K. The Miata and Elise are worlds apart from the EPS cars, but people who wax poetic about hydraulic steering don't understand that there were some absolutely terrible and middling hydraulic racks too. Even from BMW, my 97 E36 M3 rack stock was like driving a truck. And when I drove an E46 M3(Non-ZCP), it felt just alright, serviceable.

Probably the best hydraulic quick rack I've driven in a car that wasn't a Lotus or Porsche was the VA STi, with a 13.8:1 Ratio and excellent feel with bushings. And like you said, with an aggressive alignment, camber plates, mounts, etc, you can improve EPS quite a bit. I drove a friends GT350 near stock, which has rave reviews on its EPS, and I came back somewhat disappointed compared to my M2C dialed in with a lot of mods. I think dialing in the car makes a huge difference. So to summarize my rant, I don't mind EPS dialed in, though I prefer "good" hydraulic/unassisted.

[Davil]

[QUOTE=carphreak;25476985]

Originally Posted by adc

from BMW, my 97 E36 M3 rack stock was like driving a truck. And when I drove an E46 M3(Non-ZCP), it felt just alright, serviceable.

Yes. Just drive your "insert past favourite car" back to back with your M2C and your rose coloured glasses will quickly shatter. Sure you get an old enormous wheel, light steering (which I hate as my first few cars did not have power steering so I hated, hated the light soulless steering that came with this modern power assisted abomination) and a bit of a shaky feeling in the old timer and a nice vintage feeling, but the directness, turn in and precision of the new car shatters those memories very quickly. And I mean explodes.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by carphreak

Totally relate to this. I currently have an Elise, M2C, Spec NB1 with depowered steering, and S2K. The Miata and Elise are worlds apart from the EPS cars, but people who wax poetic about hydraulic steering don't understand that there were some absolutely terrible and middling hydraulic racks too.

Oh man, just to second that notion, there are some REALLY bad hydraulic steering racks out there in terms of feel, especially old American stuff that's just all steering boost all the time.

Story: My friends and I race in the 24 hours of lemons with shitty old american cars. My buddy has a Mustang II and I have a Pontiac Sunbird, both cars are from the 70's and while the Mustang is unpowered in the steering department, the pontiac still has the factory over assisted "classic" american steering feel.

So a couple years ago, I let the Mustang II guy drive my Pontiac (we trailered it down to California, so we only brought one car for that race.) After his stint he gets out and tells me the following

"yeah, so it always really bothers me when the steering wheel isn't lined up correctly. Sometimes in my Mustang, i'll take the wheel off for a second on the straightaway, just so i can put it back on lined up correctly. I...uh...tried that in your car...and...uh...couldn't get the teeth for the wheel lined up as quickly as i'd like. I was approaching the chicane and I didn't have the steering wheel on and so finally I just said "fuck it" and grabbed the steering rack and twisted. After I got around the corner, i got the steering wheel back on and everything was fine."

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Oh man, just to second that notion, there are some REALLY bad hydraulic steering racks out there in terms of feel, especially old American stuff that's just all steering boost all the time.

Story: My friends and I race in the 24 hours of lemons with shitty old american cars. My buddy has a Mustang II and I have a Pontiac Sunbird, both cars are from the 70's and while the Mustang is unpowered in the steering department, the pontiac still has the factory over assisted "classic" american steering feel.

So a couple years ago, I let the Mustang II guy drive my Pontiac (we trailered it down to California, so we only brought one car for that race.) After his stint he gets out and tells me the following

"yeah, so it always really bothers me when the steering wheel isn't lined up correctly. Sometimes in my Mustang, i'll take the wheel off for a second on the straightaway, just so i can put it back on lined up correctly. I...uh...tried that in your car...and...uh...couldn't get the teeth for the wheel lined up as quickly as i'd like. I was approaching the chicane and I didn't have the steering wheel on and so finally I just said "fuck it" and grabbed the steering rack and twisted. After I got around the corner, i got the steering wheel back on and everything was fine."

Man... I want to go racing with you guys so bad!!!

You sound like my sort of clowns!