[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

That stated, I drive in DCT manual mode and suspect I could bounce off red line all day and night and it would not cause any harm. . . not sure the same can be said of a MT?

///AVM

P.S. For some odd reason I have this feeling there is very good reason why BMW did not offer a true, visually apparent 'red line' . . . and Poochie will tell us why . . .

On track with the DCT in manual mode I normally shift around 6500, maybe close to 7k. It seems good and gets me into the power in the next gear. ANd I did that the whole weekend with long full throttle runs at times. One shortcoming of the DCT is inability to use muscle memory to know what gear you're in. And with no heads up display, the indicator isn't in clear sight. So I've occasionally downshifted too much going into a turn. IE I tap it twice to go from 5-3 but the car decides to also downshift and I end up in 2nd resulting in high RPMs, 6k+. Happened 2-3 times during the weekend. I also intentionally dropped to 2nd on the tightest turns for the most throttle steer and acceleration.
Bottom line it saw over 6k a lot during the weekend but rarely 7k. None the less it could handle that just fine.

[smknjoe]

I really wish we could see what gear we are currently in. With the MT it just constantly shows what gear they think you "should" be in. Strangely, always 6th...even when putting around at 40mph. So, I turned the gear display off in iDrive.

Muscle memory is good in a MT if you keep your hand on the shifter. I rarely do. Just habit.

My GTI had a display that showed what gear I was in, not what I should be in to save gas.

[boss2k]

Originally Posted by smknjoe

I haven't been brave enough to test it, and have no real reason to since there is plenty of power before redline, but I'm pretty sure our MTs have the same rev limiter.

There was one guy on the forum with a MT AND a tune that removed the rev limiter...blew his engine up on the Autobahn with a "money" shift.

Money shift happens on downshifts and rev limiter doesnt stop it, if you are upshifting and hit redline engine will cut off power not during downshifting. Thats the point i was trying to make several times as to why a gear indicator/ HUD can make a huge difference in a manual transmission

[boss2k]

Originally Posted by smknjoe

I really wish we could see what gear we are currently in. With the MT it just constantly shows what gear they think you "should" be in. Strangely, always 6th...even when putting around at 40mph. So, I turned the gear display off in iDrive.

Muscle memory is good in a MT if you keep your hand on the shifter. I rarely do. Just habit.

My GTI had a display that showed what gear I was in, not what I should be in to save gas.

Absolutely its fcking stupid BMW design, makes 0 sense

[boss2k]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

On track with the DCT in manual mode I normally shift around 6500, maybe close to 7k. It seems good and gets me into the power in the next gear. ANd I did that the whole weekend with long full throttle runs at times. One shortcoming of the DCT is inability to use muscle memory to know what gear you're in. And with no heads up display, the indicator isn't in clear sight. So I've occasionally downshifted too much going into a turn. IE I tap it twice to go from 5-3 but the car decides to also downshift and I end up in 2nd resulting in high RPMs, 6k+. Happened 2-3 times during the weekend. I also intentionally dropped to 2nd on the tightest turns for the most throttle steer and acceleration.
Bottom line it saw over 6k a lot during the weekend but rarely 7k. None the less it could handle that just fine.

Does DCT stop you from overshifting resulting in "money shift" which can happen in MT cars?

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by boss2k

Money shift happens on downshifts and rev limiter doesnt stop it, if you are upshifting and hit redline engine will cut off power not during downshifting. Thats the point i was trying to make several times as to why a gear indicator/ HUD can make a huge difference in a manual transmission

True that. And a friend did the money shift over the weekend. Fortunately for him its just an older 330i with cheap replacement motors. I'd NOT want to do that on an M2C.

[smknjoe]

Originally Posted by boss2k

Money shift happens on downshifts and rev limiter doesnt stop it, if you are upshifting and hit redline engine will cut off power not during downshifting. Thats the point i was trying to make several times as to why a gear indicator/ HUD can make a huge difference in a manual transmission

Yep. But he didn't even let the clutch out. It happened with the auto rev matching which should hit the rev limiter if I'm not mistaken... it was the tune that removed the limiter.

"Money shift" on my 6MT M2 Competition - Car engine got replaced https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1662729

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by boss2k

Does DCT stop you from overshifting resulting in "money shift" which can happen in MT cars?

You wont get into a gear that gets you past redline, i believe

[richard in NC]

Deleted: Duplicate post

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

You wont get into a gear that gets you past redline, i believe

Correct. Although it will allow a surprisingly high resulting RPM. I dropped to 2nd a few times on track at around 6k. It may "hold the downshift" if decelerating. IE approaching a corner from 100+ mph and nailing the brakes. Hit the downshift paddle before braking and nothing happens until you've slowed to the point the downshift can occur. By the time you release the brake, you're in the lower gear.

It will also automatically downshift to avoid lugging. I'm not sure at what RPM....

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

P.S. For some odd reason I have this feeling there is very good reason why BMW did not offer a true, visually apparent 'red line' . . . and Poochie will tell us why . . .

Yea, I don't have much information of the limitations of the red line display but looking at the cluster, its apparently a cop-out; i.e. the cheapest way BMW could of touched-up the design for the Competition's cluster, building on the M2 LCI version, without spending a ton of R&D on revamping a bespoke display, from scratch and maybe possible adding what I believe you guys are referring to as a shift light.

However, this might be an unpopular opinion here but if you're operating a DCT, then the RPM and red line display is merely there for decoration and the vanity of the driver.

On a DCT, even if you bang on the redline, all day long and all that will happen is it will just bounce off the limiter, without any type of injury to the drivetrain, reducing the RPM display to yet another unnecessary distraction.

If you are using a DCT and speed is what you are after, then letting the computer handle the gear changes is easiest way to achieve this, as no human can shift faster and more precise than a computer could. A DCT computer changes gear .5 quicker than it takes to actually glance at the RPM gauge and depress the paddles.

If you really wanted to indulge lethargic gears changes, then that's why God invented the manual version.

In a manual, you can feel and hear the engine laboring or revving out, in that particular gear, screaming at you to shift gear, thus, making a shift light unnecessary. I can't say the last time one was actually useful to me.


Disclaimer: This is just my opinion, I could be wrong..

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Disclaimer: This is just my opinion, I could be wrong..

Yes.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by Davil

Yes.

I'm actually right but I was hedging because some insecure DCT owners here get butthurt when my facts doesn't align with their perspective and then begin rebuking with snarky retorts..

Of course you would know nothing about that..

[TrentMeister]

I pull past 7k every single time I drive my car.

I'm curious why anyone wouldn't?

[papibigred]

Funny AVM is the hospital guy...me too. As for the break in service nothing changed. I just kept the driving and engine settings to "comfort" so that I wouldn't run the rpms up. So besides placebo and all the other jazz, its just nice driving the gear hard without having premature shifts...

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I'm actually right but I was hedging because some insecure DCT owners here get butthurt when my facts doesn't align with their perspective and then begin rebuking with snarky retorts..

Of course you would know nothing about that..

One day I will meet you and will not only get you to drive a DCT for the first time but teach you how to drive it. You will thank me forever.

Hopefully it happens before DCT goes forever as then I will be a manual driver again. Or at least the thing that loosely passes as a manual these days. Basically a 3rd pedal that lets you pretend you aren't "butthurt" ... whatever that means?

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by Davil

One day I will meet you and will not only get you to drive a DCT for the first time but teach you how to drive it. You will thank me forever.

Hopefully it happens before DCT goes forever as then I will be a manual driver again. Or at least the thing that loosely passes as a manual these days. Basically a 3rd pedal that lets you pretend you aren't "butthurt" ... whatever that means?

"Butthurt" is a US colloquial to mean easily offended.. I guess I figured you would of picked up it's meaning in context..

Anyways, thanks for the humble offer and be clear, I honestly have nothing against the DCT, I know it's an awesome piece of modern tech and has its rightful place in this automotive era, like the SMGs of its past.

Although I never driven the BMW version, I had access to very first dual-clutch DSG transmission, in a VW R32, before it became a thing. So I'm well-verse it's operation, more or less.

For a month, a snotty-nosed (INFORMAL•US: stereotypical spoiled teenager) friend, at the time, let me borrow his, while he was on vacation.

I remember the DSG had a lot of pep, on the open road and banged one gear into another, with a numbing sensation; it truly lived for the highway but I also recalled it was underwhelming in stop-and-go traffic. It was very "lurchy" from rest; a bit like riding with someone who had just learned to drive stick.

Regardless, I get it's appeal and place in the automotive market and If I had the choice of two vehicles, one would be a dual clutch.

Being familiar with both, I know the DCT would get me into a lot more trouble; it's a gearbox that begs you to lean on higher speeding, all the time, just to irk out the sublime powerband.

The manual option is satisfying in its own, old-fashion way; you can pace your speed, by delving into each gear and enjoy the potions of power, while with an automated dual clutch, you just want to press buttons and stay at that high-band sweet spot. Both have their own ways of getting its jollies off..

In conclusion, words get lost in translation and I might come off like some manual fanboy but it's just my personal belief the M2 model's personality is better apt for a bonafide clutch pedal.

I'm positive the DCT adds another dimension to the models driving experience but as a consumer of that product, you have to decide what fits you ultimate goal; unadulterated speed or visceral feedback.

[GarageMadness]

interestingly enough I have that on the S2000 CR. there's a green light that starts blinking and then goes solid letting you know you've reached the rev limit sweet spot to upshift. I love that on the track as it clearly visible when my eyes are focused on the exit Apex and track conditions. it would have been nice to have that added a helpful function.

[boss2k]

Originally Posted by GarageMadness

interestingly enough I have that on the S2000 CR. there's a green light that starts blinking and then goes solid letting you know you've reached the rev limit sweet spot to upshift. I love that on the track as it clearly visible when my eyes are focused on the exit Apex and track conditions. it would have been nice to have that added a helpful function.

All these are there from M3 onwards , one model up , my point is why not provide it in M2 too, afterall its a 60K car and we dont need BS features like accident warning, lane departure, heated steering wheels etc

[GarageMadness]

Originally Posted by boss2k

All these are there from M3 onwards , one model up , my point is why not provide it in M2 too, afterall its a 60K car and we dont need BS features like accident warning, lane departure, heated steering wheels etc

agreed. rev limit indicator would have been better than others. maybe this can be added or modified if in other S55 models.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I'm positive the DCT adds another dimension to the models driving experience but as a consumer of that product, you have to decide what fits you ultimate goal; unadulterated speed or visceral feedback.

Haha. I think we've had the same discussions going on for 2 years now and will never agree. VW box is not really the same as it intervenes a lot.

Believe it or not I went in with intention of buying a manual M2 and did not even consider the DCT. You have to unlearn and learn a few things and get used to it, but I'm a lifetime convert now. ... just as it reaches end of life.

[boss2k]

Originally Posted by Davil

Haha. I think we've had the same discussions going on for 2 years now and will never agree. VW box is not really the same as it intervenes a lot.

Believe it or not I went in with intention of buying a manual M2 and did not even consider the DCT. You have to unlearn and learn a few things and get used to it, but I'm a lifetime convert now. ... just as it reaches end of life.

Its fine you bought a DCT but I don't understand why you guys project it as rocket science, I have driven DCT transmission and its good and fast. nothing extraordinary as you all project