[fleetfoot]

After putting PFC-08 pads on my car for track purposes, I decided they were too noisy for daily driving, especially with the windows down. So I swapped back to my OEMs between track events. After 2 months back on the OEM pads with mostly city driving, I took the OEMs off and found fairly significant chunks missing from all the front pads (no issue with rears). The chunks look like they line up with the cross-drilled holes.

Two questions:
1) My brakes felt fine, so I'm hoping it's ok to keep driving these pads on the street?
2) Any idea why this might have happened? My hypothesis is that there was PFC-08 pad compound packed into the cross-drilled holes, and that compound worked its way out and tore up the softer OEM pads. I wonder if it might be helpful to clean the pad material out of the rotor holes between swaps?

Anyone else had this happen?

[///393]

No Fn Way!

I literally could have written this entire post word for word. Same thing happened to me. Exactly. PFC08 and stockers.

Found it just ahead of my last event which was the 3rd time going back/forth.

FWIW I put the stockers back in and they work fine while I wait on replacements to come. I’m going to just bite the bullet and pay $80 more via FCP ($330) with the lifetime guarantee.

I also noticed a lot of material in the cross-drilled holes of the rotor so I suspect that’s where the missing material is going. Wish I knew the root cause so I could mitigate it but since it’s clearly a thing, lifetime pads from FCP will suffice.

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

No Fn Way!

I literally could have written this entire post word for word. Same thing happened to me. Exactly. PFC08 and stockers.

Found it just ahead of my last event which was the 3rd time going back/forth.

FWIW I put the stockers back in and they work fine while I wait on replacements to come. I’m going to just bite the bullet and pay $80 more via FCP ($330) with the lifetime guarantee.

I also noticed a lot of material in the cross-drilled holes of the rotor so I suspect that’s where the missing material is going. Wish I knew the root cause so I could mitigate it but since it’s clearly a thing, lifetime pads from FCP will suffice.

Ha well I guess I'm glad I'm not the only one? I'm assuming you've never had any trouble with the PFC pads tearing up like this? Your FCP Euro approach is a decent workaround for the street pads, but I'd really like to keep this from happening in the first place.

[///393]

Misery loves company so here I am friend



The PFC08s have held up beyond my wildest expectations. 4 weekends on them and they’re seemingly like new. Considered moving to Ferrodo DS3.12 but I’m going to continue to build experience with these for consistency sake as well as for my wallet.

Re: root cause…

I suspect it’s related to either overheating the stock units pads during street driving (I do enjoy the occasional spirited weekend outing) or something to do with the disparate compounds. Lacking any applicable adjustment on my end, FCP Euro lifetime replacement will have to do.

[fleetfoot]

Good to hear on the PFCs. I’ve only got 2 days on them so far.

FWIW, I haven’t had any spirited driving the past couple months with the OEM pads on. So I’m pretty confident it’s not from overheating them. But one of my track buddies suggested that the pitting could be from not re-bedding the OEM pads. That seems like a reasonable hypothesis, so I’ll try to do that next time I swap if I can find a decent road nearby…that’s been challenging in the past.

[M2_MEDUSA]

Wow Im glad to have stumbled upon this thread because i was looking to run PFC-08 as an upgraded pad with my stocks. Saved me this future headache

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Wow Im glad to have stumbled upon this thread because i was looking to run PFC-08 as an upgraded pad with my stocks. Saved me this future headache

I chatted with an M4 CS guy at the track yesterday on this topic. He's got the same brake hardware as us. He also swaps between PFC-08s and OEM pads between track days and has no issues. He doesn't bed the OEM pads either. I'm starting to think there's some edge case that causes problems a small percentage of the time since many folks seem to have zero issues.

Sidenote: even with my M2 having an AA tune, downpipe, and intercooler with a claimed 395hp at the wheels, the stock M4CS (454hp) was WAY faster than me on the back straight at Road Atlanta. We seemed to be coming out of turn 7 at comparable speeds, but I'd top out around 138mph while he was hitting 155+mph. This scenario clearly indicated to me the significant top end performance gains you get with just a stock S55. But of course my M2 costs about half the M4CS

[///393]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

Sidenote: even with my M2 having an AA tune, downpipe, and intercooler with a claimed 395hp at the wheels, the stock M4CS (454hp) was WAY faster than me on the back straight at Road Atlanta. We seemed to be coming out of turn 7 at comparable speeds, but I'd top out around 138mph while he was hitting 155+mph. This scenario clearly indicated to me the significant top end performance gains you get with just a stock S55. But of course my M2 costs about half the M4CS

M4CS is likely laying all of 450 down at the tire and you’re closer to 380whp than 395whp. 80whp have that effect. A base M4 wouldn’t have disappeared like that.

Sounds like it’s time for a HPFP, Carbahn turbo, and a custom tune.

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

Sounds like it’s time for a HPFP, Carbahn turbo, and a custom tune.

My m2 is already more capable than the average track car. I’ll probably spend the time/money becoming a better driver so can carry more speed through turn 7 and hit 155mph that way

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

My m2 is already more capable than the average track car. I’ll probably spend the time/money becoming a better driver so can carry more speed through turn 7 and hit 155mph that way

You're better off spending the money on proper safety equipment if you're aiming to go that fast. I typically limit myself to 120-130 during HPDE's. Hitting a wall at 160 without a proper harness and HANS can do some serious damage. Even with all the airbag and srs systems.

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

You're better off spending the money on proper safety equipment if you're aiming to go that fast. I typically limit myself to 120-130 during HPDE's. Hitting a wall at 160 without a proper harness and HANS can do some serious damage. Even with all the airbag and srs systems.

I got a hybrid HANS right after my first track day back when I was driving my much slower 328i. I wouldn't go on track without it. A quickfit harness is next on the list. Any pro tips from your experience with harnesses?

Analytical digression: Safety equipment is obviously a good call, but I'd like to avoid an incident from happening in the first place. I would think that solid driving skills (especially car control) and being mentally sharp on the track (well-rested and focused) could be an even better risk reduction method than a HANS+harness. I doubt numbers exist, but it would be super interesting to see catastrophic injury rates for HPDE vs HPDE with HANS+harness vs just driving on the interstate. Honestly the risk on the interstate scares me the most. Sleepy folks on their morning commutes are wild!

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

I got a hybrid HANS right after my first track day back when I was driving my much slower 328i. I wouldn't go on track without it. A quickfit harness is next on the list. Any pro tips from your experience with harnesses?

Analytical digression: Safety equipment is obviously a good call, but I'd like to avoid an incident from happening in the first place. I would think that solid driving skills (especially car control) and being mentally sharp on the track (well-rested and focused) could be an even better risk reduction method than a HANS+harness. I doubt numbers exist, but it would be super interesting to see catastrophic injury rates for HPDE vs HPDE with HANS+harness vs just driving on the interstate. Honestly the risk on the interstate scares me the most. Sleepy folks on their morning commutes are wild!

With regards to a harness, I've been doing a lot of research myself as I've been looking to add one. You'll a lot of guys in the forums here using the Schroth Quickfit Pro 4 pt harness. I chatted with both Schroth and HMS (distributor) and they ABSOLUTELY DO NOT RECOMMEND using the 4 point harness in the M2. The reason being due to the downward angle the back straps are at requires certified testing on the stock M2 seat to ensure it won't actually collapse under load. Even though the harness will fit they HAVE NOT tested the M2 seats under extreme load to ensure they won't physically break.

I was recommended the Schroth Rallye 3 which has one back strap going back to the C pillar. Otherwise, to use the 4 pt a harness bar or cage is recommended.

As for injury risk, global crash test ratings are certified at 40 mph. Even on highways crash impact typically isn't at full interstate speed. I've seen some gnarly crashes at the track into walls and its not pretty.

[///393]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

My m2 is already more capable than the average track car. I’ll probably spend the time/money becoming a better driver so can carry more speed through turn 7 and hit 155mph that way

Do both. Seat time mod, plus power&grip mods. And come on over to Barber already. It’s beautiful and you’re not worried about how hard it pulls above 130.

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

With regards to a harness, I've been doing a lot of research myself as I've been looking to add one. You'll a lot of guys in the forums here using the Schroth Quickfit Pro 4 pt harness. I chatted with both Schroth and HMS (distributor) and they ABSOLUTELY DO NOT RECOMMEND using the 4 point harness in the M2. The reason being due to the downward angle the back straps are at requires certified testing on the stock M2 seat to ensure it won't actually collapse under load. Even though the harness will fit they HAVE NOT tested the M2 seats under extreme load to ensure they won't physically break.

I was recommended the Schroth Rallye 3 which has one back strap going back to the C pillar. Otherwise, to use the 4 pt a harness bar or cage is recommended. .

I just browsed through the Bimmerworld harness guide. It looks like the Rallye 3 isn't recommended for use with HANS devices. So seems like that isn't a good option if you're planning to do both HANS and a harness?

Originally Posted by wilson kop

Do both. Seat time mod, plus power&grip mods. And come on over to Barber already. It’s beautiful and you’re not worried about how hard it pulls above 130.

My first track day in my M2 was at Barber...but it was in the 30's and raining, so not a great experience. I'm definitely planning to come back! Tentatively June 3/4 with JustTrackIt.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

I just browsed through the Bimmerworld harness guide. It looks like the Rallye 3 isn't recommended for use with HANS devices. So seems like that isn't a good option if you're planning to do both HANS and a harness?

Unfortunately without adding a harness bar or cage, there is no approved M2 harness setup that works with HANS devices as far as I'm aware.

[zinner]

I swap back and forth all the time between PFC-08 and street pads for maybe 3 years now and I never seen this. I use a solid vented rotor.

[zinner]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

With regards to a harness.

If you are in a crash would you rather?
1) three point street belt
OR
2) 4 point Quick Fit Pro with a Hans devices

I understand the will the car/seat collapse argument, Do you think the F chassis/seats in general are worse than the E chassis? The F chassis was left behind cause the M3 seats don't have a pass through to make the quick fit an option at all.

I have a Simpson Hybrid-S which will do 3 point and it's way more secure in a 4 point (shoulder belts over yoke) than the 3 point configuration (that strap around your chest).

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by zinner

If you are in a crash would you rather?
1) three point street belt
OR
2) 4 point Quick Fit Pro with a Hans devices

I understand the will the car/seat collapse argument, Do you think the F chassis/seats in general are better than the E chassis?

I have a Simpson Hybrid-S which will do 3 point and it's way more secure in a 4 point (shoulder belts over yoke) than the 3 point configuration (that strap around your chest).

Can’t really answer about the seat. That’s why testing is required to be certified. I’m personally not going to take that risk but many others on here do.

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by zinner

I swap back and forth all the time between PFC-08 and street pads for maybe 3 years now and I never seen this. I use a solid vented rotor.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like they make a solid vented rotor for the M2. Everything is cross-drilled...unless you buy slotted rotors which start at $1300 a pair.
https://www.bimmerworld.com/Brakes/#/filter:sitecategory_hierarchy:Brakes~Brake$2520Rot ors/sortrice_min:asc

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by zinner

If you are in a crash would you rather?
1) three point street belt
OR
2) 4 point Quick Fit Pro with a Hans devices

I understand the will the car/seat collapse argument, Do you think the F chassis/seats in general are worse than the E chassis? The F chassis was left behind cause the M3 seats don't have a pass through to make the quick fit an option at all.

I have a Simpson Hybrid-S which will do 3 point and it's way more secure in a 4 point (shoulder belts over yoke) than the 3 point configuration (that strap around your chest).

I'm also wondering which combination leads to greater risk. My concern is that we (people not trained as crash safety engineers) might not have a complete understanding of all the factors involved in a crash. On the surface it seems like more belts would be safer, but then folks start talking about body folding/twisting in roll-over situations, and I realize that crashes can be very complex.

It sounds like there are two potential issues with the Quickfit Pro in the F87:
1) the untested strength of the F87 seat
2) the angle of the straps going to the rear seat

It seems logical that if the E92 front seat was ok, then the F87 seat would be ok too. But I don't fully understand the implications of the rear strap angle, and how much it differs compared to the E92. Can anyone enlighten me there?

[///393]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

I'm also wondering which combination leads to greater risk. My concern is that we (people not trained as crash safety engineers) might not have a complete understanding of all the factors involved in a crash. On the surface it seems like more belts would be safer, but then folks start talking about body folding/twisting in roll-over situations, and I realize that crashes can be very complex.

It sounds like there are two potential issues with the Quickfit Pro in the F87:
1) the untested strength of the F87 seat
2) the angle of the straps going to the rear seat

It seems logical that if the E92 front seat was ok, then the F87 seat would be ok too. But I don't fully understand the implications of the rear strap angle, and how much it differs compared to the E92. Can anyone enlighten me there?

You’re way overthinking this. I run a E92 QFP in my F87 without Hans, but will be running a Simpson neck restraint soon. Safety gets people weird so you do you.

I had an instructor give me guff for NOT having a matching QFP for passenger so I bought one for passenger and then my very next instructor told me that he won’t wear any four point to avoid the risk of submarining under.

I see this as a business issue for Schroth not an engineering problem. To get their belts TUV certified for the F87 the business case must not have been there so it didn’t get executed. I lap regularly with a buddy that has the same harnesses in his E92 and the angle and fit is identical. YMMV

[zinner]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like they make a solid vented rotor for the M2. Everything is cross-drilled...unless you buy slotted rotors which start at $1300 a pair.
https://www.bimmerworld.com/Brakes/#/filter:sitecategory_hierarchy:Brakes~Brake$2520Rot ors/sortrice_min:asc

The bummer of having the 380mm rotor vs the 370mm rotor on the non M cars, you can't swap pads easily :-D I think everything else is darn near the same on the Msport brakes but that rotor size. You know what seems to help my squealing if I am street driving on PFC's, I nice romp on the brake pedal.