[dcmac]

Howdy gang,

So at my last track event, after a motivational talk from the chief instructor, I finally ponied up and turned off all the nannies after driving the last couple of seasons exclusively in 'Sport' mode. His rationale was that the pure joy of driving is 'dancing with your car', learning its limits and getting the fundamentals right, all of which modern-day DSC systems can impede.

My own rationale was that even though I was driving quickly (for my class, usually A/B groups at HPDE's), it felt 'superficial quick'. In other words, I can tell the traction control has been hiding my deficiencies, and stopping me from truly learning to control my car at or approaching its limits. I also had to laugh when I was recently changing out my stock pads for track pads that my REAR pads were even more worn than the fronts, indicating the DSC had been quite active on my rear wheels over the past two seasons

For me, the DSC reins in any wheelspin on corner exit (thus hiding my poor throttle control), cuts power or brakes a wheel slightly on long winding sweepers when I've got the car loaded and I'm on the limit of traction (again, allowing me to be sloppy on throttle control), and perhaps most importantly, the auto rev-blip was eradicating any need for me to heel and toe, robbing me of a chance to become a better driver and transition well into any type of club racer that doesn't have said feature. The little flickering orange light on my cluster felt like a constant reminder to me I was 'cheating'.

So after hatching a plan with my instructor to dial down the speed and intensity to 5/10th's and concentrate on corner entry, we headed out to give it a go. On corner entry, I was pretty nervous about getting the heel and toe right so as to not chirp the rear wheels and unsettle the car at speed - I'd done this before and it was not a pleasant experience for someone not used to it. My other trepidation was around not handling corner exit well - my car is tuned and I knew that if I drove it anything like I did with DSC on, I'd quickly find myself facing the wrong way on the track.

While I'm glad I went in very cautiously, in hindsight I needn't have worried so much. The experience with DSC OFF was the best time I've ever had in my car, period. I found my concentration levels heightened (fear of crashing will do that...!) and the reward of putting in faster and faster laps while improving rev matching throughout was a great feeling that offset the fact I was definitely a good 5sec slower or thereabouts per lap compared to DSC ON.

It wasn't all smooth sailing. For those that have run High Plains Raceway in CO, you'll know turn 8 can bring many drivers unstuck. It's a tight, relatively slow off-camber left hander that is hard to get right. Making it tougher is the course tempts you to bring as much speed into it out of 7 that you can handle. I had been working on powering out of 7 with more speed all day and finally got that part right, only to miss my braking point headed into 8 and overshoot the correct turn-in point. Instead of taking my medicine and running wide, I tried to turn in late to still make the apex. The car was at quite the angle when I put power down and I then found myself in a surreal slow motion spin. I did not counter steer strong or quick enough to bring the tail back around, and ended up screeching to a halt on the left side of the track facing, yep, the wrong way. No damage done, but without doubt had DSC been on it would have braked a rear wheel and stopped that spin, again robbing me of the slight embarrassment and reflection needed to see what went wrong.

The whole experience got me thinking - what is the 'right' way to run your car at a track. In my mind, if I want to be a better driver, I should run DSC OFF, stay conservative, and build from there. However, I have no doubt I am faster with the nannies on... so if I were in a time trial I would probably leave them on to set a time. The auto-rev-blip alone saves time in that it's (arguably) spot-on every single time, whereas my hit-and-mis H/T's can make or break a corner.

Two last points worth noting:

1) Throughout our sessions my instructor was hugely impressed with the car. I am running Ohlins R&T w/ -2.9deg camber and he was blown away with how fast the car settled in weight transitions, and the torque from all gears out of corners where many other cars would bog down or struggle. We also both felt that the Ohlins were doing an amazing job at helping get the power to the ground on exit. He was instructing two other M2's that day and he felt that was a big difference between my car and theirs - even more so considering I was running more HP. So all up, even with nannies off, this is truly a car that makes the average driver look very good on track

2) Earlier that morning I had begun mounting my track wheels (w/ RE71 rubber) only to discover one of them had a bent inner rim with a big chunk out of the tire itself, courtesy of a downtown Denver pothole. I was so disappointed at having to switch to stock rubber for the event, as I'd really been looking forward to running the faster setup. In hindsight, running the stock rubber for my DSC OFF training was a blessing in disguise. The lower limits of the PSS's meant I was learning the traction limits at lower speed - a much better situation for my development.

For those drivers here considering the switch to DSC OFF for their next event, I highly recommend it. I won't lie - it is still a bit intimidating for me and I'm hoping in the next few events I can get more comfortable. But without doubt, it's a more rewarding experience to drive this way. All this said, I definitely still feel DSC ON is the correct mode for the street (unless you deliberately want to switch it off to have a bit of fun, but there's few places on the street we can do this!). I welcome those electronics keeping a safeguard on me and my wheels during the unpredictable events and conditions that are presented to you in day to day street driving.

Happy snap

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by dcmac

The experience with DSC OFF was the best time I've ever had in my car, period. I found my concentration levels heightened (fear of crashing will do that...!) and the reward of putting in faster and faster laps while improving rev matching throughout was a great feeling that offset the fact I was definitely a good 5sec slower or thereabouts per lap compared to DSC ON.

To me this is the answer to your question about the 'right' way to run your car at a track - as long as you can safely control the car. Unless you are getting paid this is all about having fun (imo) - so go for what gives you the most enjoyment!

Also in regards to being considerably slower with DSC off - with your extended time with it on like you said you have probably ingrained some habits that aren't very helpful without traction control on. Its going to take some time to get over those - have patience and work through it. Maybe don't focus on times for a bit but just use them as a tool to measure progress. Going to the less grippy tire like you did is definitely not a bad thing although the RE71s won't be too snappy when you go back to them either. Once you get used to it and get comfortable I bet you find that running DSC off is actually faster. Also something that I found very helpful was a skid control clinic - really helps develop your reactions.

I'm in the camp that you turn off DSC as soon as safely possible. It was about the 5th track day that I turned it off and I'm very glad I did. I could already see myself developing poor throttle control & relying on the DSC too much. It was eye opening to say the least and I 100% believe it has helped me be a better driver today turning it off that early. And like you said - the fun factor was so much higher.

Pro tip (from a completely non-pro amateur hack) - build up that tire fund - you're getting ready to need it

[Twt]

I am a seasoned DE driver and instructor with amateur Time Trial and race experience. I used to push students to develope the skills to drive with nannies off. After watching many wrecks on track ( most at Road Atlanta) I have altered my position. DE events are fun and a learning experience....it's no fun to wreck your prized possession....so leave some nannies on until you are just bored to tears and/or want to go racing. Everyone is in a rush to "move up", run slicks, take off nannies and add power....just enjoy your DE events and be safe first and fast second. By the way, the M2 can be programmed to run euro Sport+...it's a great balance of speed and safety once you are ready.

[Ex_Stig]

I've said this before, but as a former instructor you really need to be able to string together several consecutive laps (at speed) without traction control kicking in before you consider turning it off.

Remember, going a bit slower helps you be smoother. Smoother is the easiest way to then be faster.

[orangeglim]

Why not run in Sport+? Seems like a strange transition from Sport --> Fully off. Sport+ allows for some slip/slide without completely tossing the safety net. Personally, I still drive my events with everything on, and I use the traction control light as a coach of sorts, if it blinks, I did something wrong. I can usually tell what that is, so on the next lap I try to fix it so I get no traction control blinking at me.

[Ex_Stig]

Originally Posted by orangeglim

Why not run in Sport+? Seems like a strange transition from Sport --> Fully off. Sport+ allows for some slip/slide without completely tossing the safety net. Personally, I still drive my events with everything on, and I use the traction control light as a coach of sorts, if it blinks, I did something wrong. I can usually tell what that is, so on the next lap I try to fix it so I get no traction control blinking at me.

I think you mean MDM, right?

[c_w]

I tried all settings traction/mdm and sport/sport+ and felt like it would noticeably cut power and give no slip at all out of corners.

[orangeglim]

Originally Posted by GNALUZU

I think you mean MDM, right?

Right, in a 2018 M2 Sport+ turns on MDM, which will loosen things up a bit over just regular Sport mode.

That said, I drove an M2 at the BMW Performance Center in CA with DSC fully off during an Advanced M school and it was a complete blast. Not much to worry about in an M2 with it off unless you do something really wrong (i.e. too much throttle coming out of a corner).

[Ex_Stig]

Originally Posted by orangeglim

Right, in a 2018 M2 Sport+ turns on MDM, which will loosen things up a bit over just regular Sport mode.

That said, I drove an M2 at the BMW Performance Center in CA with DSC fully off during an Advanced M school and it was a complete blast. Not much to worry about in an M2 with it off unless you do something really wrong (i.e. too much throttle coming out of a corner).

Hmmm, it must have been on of the programmed "M" buttons on the steering wheel because Sport + doesn't change stability control setting is any car.

As for not being able to get into trouble in an M2... never under estimate the stupidity of someone trying to argue with the laws of physics.

[5.M0NSTER]

I have a Euro M2. Around the German B roads I drive with with DSC off just so I can heal and toe and rev match without the computer.

On track I think the best approach is to keep the car in Sport till you know the track, developed a good line and don’t have the TCS light flashing. Sport + has a very aggressive gas pedal map, and it’s easy to overapply throttle.

Once you develop good knowledge of the track, brake points, gear selection, and a smooth flow, then go DSC off. This is the only way to develop the driver instinct and learn to feel the car.

[Twt]

Even the Ferrari Challenge drivers use nannies:

Ferrari also re-calibrated the 488’s electronic driver aids, even adding a two-phase control system for the traction control. One knob on the steering wheel allows the driver to set when the system will intervene, and a second regulates the aggressiveness of intervention.

[orangeglim]

Originally Posted by GNALUZU

Hmmm, it must have been on of the programmed "M" buttons on the steering wheel because Sport + doesn't change stability control setting is any car.

As for not being able to get into trouble in an M2... never under estimate the stupidity of someone trying to argue with the laws of physics.

2018 M2 LCI doesn't have any "M" buttons. Those were added in the M2 Competition. Sport+ in the OG M2 turns on MDM. It doesn't have individual buttons like the M3/M4, those were also added in the M2 Competition.

[imolam3]

Originally Posted by Twt

I am a seasoned DE driver and instructor with amateur Time Trial and race experience. I used to push students to develope the skills to drive with nannies off. After watching many wrecks on track ( most at Road Atlanta) I have altered my position. DE events are fun and a learning experience....it's no fun to wreck your prized possession....so leave some nannies on until you are just bored to tears and/or want to go racing. Everyone is in a rush to "move up", run slicks, take off nannies and add power....just enjoy your DE events and be safe first and fast second. By the way, the M2 can be programmed to run euro Sport+...it's a great balance of speed and safety once you are ready.

I agreed, I would only turn it off if you have plenty of run off depending on the track. I coded with euro MDM so car still has some traction control at the limit.

OP, do you have access to a skid pad? Great way to learn car control.

[dcmac]

Originally Posted by GNALUZU

I've said this before, but as a former instructor you really need to be able to string together several consecutive laps (at speed) without traction control kicking in before you consider turning it off.

Remember, going a bit slower helps you be smoother. Smoother is the easiest way to then be faster.

Couldn't agree more. Both my instructor and my 'coach' of sorts (a friend with 20yrs race experience who occasionally instructs me but moreso coaches me off-track) felt I was at that point and encouraged the progression to DSC Off. My instructor's summary at the end of the event, even considering the last session mishap, was "you should be driving nannies off every session now".

Originally Posted by orangeglim

Why not run in Sport+? Seems like a strange transition from Sport --> Fully off. Sport+ allows for some slip/slide without completely tossing the safety net. Personally, I still drive my events with everything on, and I use the traction control light as a coach of sorts, if it blinks, I did something wrong. I can usually tell what that is, so on the next lap I try to fix it so I get no traction control blinking at me.

It's a good question and obviously everyone has their own preference. For me, Sport+'s throttle map is a bit too twitchy and aggressive on track. Like Monster said, it's easy to overapply throttle (not that there's any ramifications, which is precisely the problem!). The big reason I use Sport is because it mirrors the throttle mapping for DSC OFF - it makes the transition to no nannies more familiar... That said, I drive exclusively Sport+ on the road because I like it's get up and go in traffic. My plan is to run DSC OFF on the two tracks I'm familiar with here in CO, and continue to run Sport on new tracks and when/if I enter TT, for the time being.

Originally Posted by imolam3

I agreed, I would only turn it off if you have plenty of run off depending on the track. I coded with euro MDM so car still has some traction control at the limit.

OP, do you have access to a skid pad? Great way to learn car control.

Oh man, I agree with you and have been searching for a skid pad for months. There's basically one option here in Denver. It's a road-skills drive school that owns it but you have to pay for their (expensive) packages which are full of programs I don't need. I'm actually that keen to get on a skid pad that I'm thinking of driving interstate for a day of fun. I'm also scouring google maps for abandoned wide open lots, with not a lot of luck so far!!

And yes, agree re running it off on tracks with good run off. HPR and also Pueblo here in CO have plenty of room and no-consequence corners. This month I am running Pikes Peak Int'l Raceway which has concrete walls everywhere... it'll be Sport mode all day

Originally Posted by Twt

I am a seasoned DE driver and instructor with amateur Time Trial and race experience. I used to push students to develope the skills to drive with nannies off. After watching many wrecks on track ( most at Road Atlanta) I have altered my position. DE events are fun and a learning experience....it's no fun to wreck your prized possession....so leave some nannies on until you are just bored to tears and/or want to go racing. Everyone is in a rush to "move up", run slicks, take off nannies and add power....just enjoy your DE events and be safe first and fast second. By the way, the M2 can be programmed to run euro Sport+...it's a great balance of speed and safety once you are ready.

While most of the instructors at our BMW driving school day would disagree with you - I appreciate what you're saying. I think the approach from the driver plays a big part. I went into the event knowing the animal the M2 can be without nannies, and I also don't kid myself about my own skill level. I suspect a few of those who crashed might have been running before they learned to walk, or perhaps they just got unlucky (you tell me?). This is going to sound silly but I actually DID feel a bit bored hammering around track with auto-blip and traction control there as a net and superficially increasing my speed (or at least my perception of my own skills!) - I felt like I wasn't becoming a better driver, which is a big motivating factor for me in the first place. Racing competitively is a long term goal of mine, so...

All that said, I have started buying track insurance this year. At around $400 an event, I'm up for around $2-2.5k for the season. It stings, but I've decided it's worth the piece of mind.

And as for Euro MDM... agree it would be handy but I've made the choice not to code my car. I don't want any mishap to turn into an unplanned visit to a dealer for a fix. I know that risk is low, I just don't want to do it.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by dcmac

While most of the instructors at our BMW driving school day would disagree with you - I appreciate what you're saying. I think the approach from the driver plays a big part. I went into the event knowing the animal the M2 can be without nannies, and I also don't kid myself about my own skill level. I suspect a few of those who crashed might have been running before they learned to walk, or perhaps they just got unlucky (you tell me?). This is going to sound silly but I actually DID feel a bit bored hammering around track with auto-blip and traction control there as a net and superficially increasing my speed (or at least my perception of my own skills!) - I felt like I wasn't becoming a better driver, which is a big motivating factor for me in the first place. Racing competitively is a long term goal of mine, so...

All that said, I have started buying track insurance this year. At around $400 an event, I'm up for around $2-2.5k for the season. It stings, but I've decided it's worth the piece of mind.

Very true. Your goals and midset as the driver are crucial. I think if you go to the track to be able to open up the throttle and have fun you should keep DSC on. But if your goal is to improve your driving skills then the systems need to be switched off sooner or later.

I've tracked the Mustang for 5 years. After the first year I switched everything off. And when I did the most important part was to work your way up on speed. If you're able to ramp up from 5/10 to 9/10 progressively, you will find the edge of your skill and comfort zone. And being at that cusp is how you learn more and grow as a driver.

At Spa and Hockenheim I was ok with this approach. But now the next thing I'm planning is Nurburgring, and I'm struggling with how to approach that track. No runoff room and armco everywhere. I may start in Sport and after I feel I know the track go systems of and back it down 1/10. But still thinking about it. It may have to be a game time decision depending on how much balls I have that day.

Good call on track insurance. Peace of mind so you can focus on driving.

[M2joey]

Great feedback and observation!

Your instructor gave you some great feedback as well. In the end, it is all about car control "dancing with your car", that is the name of the game. Basically, you will ultimately hit a plateau with any driving mode other than DSC Off. When that starts to occur it is time to start considering turning DSC Off. Sounds like you are certainly at that point.

You might be faster with with the nannies on now. Although, you will soon start to realize, you will be much much faster with the DSC Off. As you and historically many reviews of the M2 have said. You can drive the M2 like an absolute idiot! It is such a well balanced car and is so easy to correct when you get out of shape. It is great to hit a point where you start to really understand just how great of a car it is.

Moving forward, I am just going to say - smooth with the hands and feet as you continue to progress with DSC Off. Sounds like you have a nice setup going with Ohlins and RE-71s as well. Which will make it harder and easier to learn in some ways over a stock M2. Anyway, it is all good.

I always run DSC On when driving on the street, and in the rain on the track.

[dcmac]

Originally Posted by isjoey

Moving forward, I am just going to say - smooth with the hands and feet as you continue to progress with DSC Off. Sounds like you have a nice setup going with Ohlins and RE-71s as well. Which will make it harder and easier to learn in some ways over a stock M2. Anyway, it is all good.

I always run DSC On when driving on the street, and in the rain on the track.

Thank you! Appreciate your thoughts and agree.

Out of curiosity and given you are an instructor, mind elaborating on your thoughts on the Ohlins and RE71's making it harder/easier to learn/progress in some ways?

Correct me if I'm wrong but my view is one can be a a double edged sword while the other offers nothing but benefit:

RE71's - better grip = better control but also = more speed before reaching traction limits (therefore increasing inherent risk vs running the stock, slower PSS's)..

Ohlins - - car's more planted with better body control and deals with weight transition better than stock, overall handling improved, puts power down better, etc... (I can't actually think of a reason why the upgraded suspension would make things harder to learn?)

[tux2005]

With a stiffer or better damped car you won't have to be quite as balanced with loading the car. Abrupt inputs will result in less lift, dive and/or roll than you'd have with a softer set up.

I track with Sport+ or MDM mode now but am really struggling with getting power down out of low speed corners. Unfortunately my local track (CTMP/Mosport) is also a mostly high speed track with lots of nearby concrete walls so I'm rather cautious about moving to fully off. I think I will take my laptop with me to my next event and perhaps experiment with coding Euro MDM on the skid pad.

I'm on 265/35R18s square and suspect that is also throwing off the TC with the 3.8% smaller rear tire while only 1.9% smaller front disrupts the balance.

[dcmac]

Originally Posted by tux2005

With a stiffer or better damped car you won't have to be quite as balanced with loading the car. Abrupt inputs will result in less lift, dive and/or roll than you'd have with a softer set up.

I track with Sport+ or MDM mode now but am really struggling with getting power down out of low speed corners. Unfortunately my local track (CTMP/Mosport) is also a mostly high speed track with lots of nearby concrete walls so I'm rather cautious about moving to fully off. I think I will take my laptop with me to my next event and perhaps experiment with coding Euro MDM on the skid pad.

I'm on 265/35R18s square and suspect that is also throwing off the TC with the 3.8% smaller rear tire while only 1.9% smaller front disrupts the balance.

Got you. Good points. Another upgrade then that partly disguises driver skill deficiencies in some ways.

Re TC..Interesting. I'm on the exact same square setup - to date I haven't felt it engaging any differently to stock (doesn't mean it's not though!).

[M2joey]

Originally Posted by dcmac

Thank you! Appreciate your thoughts and agree.

Out of curiosity and given you are an instructor, mind elaborating on your thoughts on the Ohlins and RE71's making it harder/easier to learn/progress in some ways?

Correct me if I'm wrong but my view is one can be a a double edged sword while the other offers nothing but benefit:

RE71's - better grip = better control but also = more speed before reaching traction limits (therefore increasing inherent risk vs running the stock, slower PSS's)..

Ohlins - - car's more planted with better body control and deals with weight transition better than stock, overall handling improved, puts power down better, etc... (I can't actually think of a reason why the upgraded suspension would make things harder to learn?)

Everything you said is correct.

RE71s - One of the best tires for track driving, I drive RE71s as well. You pretty much summed things up. Much more grip, even over the PSS. If you are running wider tires than OEM even more. This in turn makes it harder to learn car control. You must drive the car that much harder to reach the limits of adhesion. A former chief instructor one told me "the best way to learn how to drive is in an old car with bald tires". I thought "hmm yeah, I guess so" but learned that is certainly the truth.

Ohlins or coil overs - Will keep the tires planted better, the car will have less role, be better able to handle changing surfaces, all kinds of stuff. The cars steering will respond faster, the car will transition faster, easier to "get behind" on a correction. They demand more from the driver making it harder to learn and or drive. Again, harder to get the car to and drive it at the limit over OEM suspension.

Awesome car control is summed up very well watching Kimi give demo rides!

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...2&&FORM=VDRVRV

[CrashFL]

For me part of the fun is learning to rotate the car, which quickly becomes a wrestling match with the nannies on. It doesn't want to rotate and certainly doesn't want to let you add throttle out of a turn, even in MDM. Trail braking and steering the car with the throttle are a lot of fun to work on, and both are hampered by DSC.

Sport+ on the track is perhaps the worst mode-- makes the throttle difficult to modulate.

I'm pretty new, but find it rewarding and fun to drive with the nannies disabled. My car thanks me. Except for that one time I spun.

[OldDirtyCoaks]

Originally Posted by GNALUZU

I've said this before, but as a former instructor you really need to be able to string together several consecutive laps (at speed) without traction control kicking in before you consider turning it off.

Remember, going a bit slower helps you be smoother. Smoother is the easiest way to then be faster.

All of my instructors have said the same.