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      06-13-2017, 01:19 PM   #1
Nomad0001
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Camber Plates

Noob on these.

If you have these installed and marked with your street and track settings, can you just change them when you get to the track and put them back when the track day is over?

I saw a video (different make of car but similar set-up). I seems like he just jacked up the car with a floor jack, loosened the set screws, moved the top of the strut back and forth, and tightened them where he wanted the camber to be.

Once you have it all marked, is it really that easy?

Thanks,

MD
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      06-13-2017, 02:52 PM   #2
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I'm sure other more knowledgeable people will chime in but my understanding is that while adjusting the camber value is as easy as you describe the issue is it also affects the toe-in which you cannot easily adjust.

So if you have a high negative camber for track use and the toe-in is set as desired then if you adjust the camber for street use then the toe-in will be thrown off for street use. Because of this I think it's common to set a compromise camber and toe-in and not adjust the camber frequently.
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      06-16-2017, 01:36 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tux2005 View Post
I'm sure other more knowledgeable people will chime in but my understanding is that while adjusting the camber value is as easy as you describe the issue is it also affects the toe-in which you cannot easily adjust.

So if you have a high negative camber for track use and the toe-in is set as desired then if you adjust the camber for street use then the toe-in will be thrown off for street use. Because of this I think it's common to set a compromise camber and toe-in and not adjust the camber frequently.
I won't claim to be more knowledgeable, far from it, but this description is consistent with experiences. My mechanic did an alignment for me in the past to attempt to have both street and track setups, marking both the camber plates and whatever it is that used to adjust toe. The impact to toe with a small change in camber was pretty significant, though this was not my M2 so YMMV. It proved to be such a hassle that I just ran -2.5 camber all year round and had absolutely no significant issue with excessive tire wear.
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      06-17-2017, 03:21 PM   #4
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You can but your toe might still be a little off even if you mark it. I run -2.75 all the time with very minimal toe out in the front.
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      06-19-2017, 08:00 AM   #5
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You'll pretty much ruin toe settings if you adjust the camber. I have mine set to -2.5 and 0 toe and just call it a day.
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      06-22-2017, 08:40 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangspeed View Post
You'll pretty much ruin toe settings if you adjust the camber. I have mine set to -2.5 and 0 toe and just call it a day.
What kind of tire wear have you been experiencing on track with this setting?

Also, what settings are you guys running in the rear?

Thanks, looking to get camber plates shortly to save front tire wear.
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      06-22-2017, 05:00 PM   #7
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Increasing static camber increases toe-out on a MacPherson based strut. Toe-out has beneficial effect on track and autocross (quicker turn-in and steering response). Having a street camber (say, -1.2º) with a mild toe-in (1/16" total) may result in a zero or mild toe-out when increased to -2.5º camber for track use, which is beneficial.

The problem lies in how MOST camber plates are adjusted. For example, this is a KW camber plate on an E9X M3:



See how once the strut is installed, you can't really access the two inner bolts to loosen the camber plate? Here's an example of Ground Control camber plates:



This appears to accommodate a more significant increase in negative camber before you run out of room to tighten the bolts. But let's say the "zero" position it's aligned to right now is "stock" camber, to get to -1.5º you would have to adjust the plate 1 click in, and to get to 2.5 you would have to adjust up to 3 clicks in. On this particular plate, the two inner bolts may be too far in to be tightened underneath the strut brace.

so while in theory you CAN set the camber for a street and a track setting, in practice it depends on the camber plate you use. A "better" way to adjust would be to fix the camber plate at a certain position with the top of the strut pushed all the way out to the far outer edge (say, the camber plate set to the -2º position) for a total of -1.5º of camber for street, then for track you loosen the top strut nuts and push the assembly in to the max setting to gain ~-0.7º of negative camber for a total of -2.2º rather than trying to adjust the plate itself.
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      06-23-2017, 07:02 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangspeed View Post
You'll pretty much ruin toe settings if you adjust the camber. I have mine set to -2.5 and 0 toe and just call it a day.
What kind of tire wear have you been experiencing on track with this setting?

Also, what settings are you guys running in the rear?

Thanks, looking to get camber plates shortly to save front tire wear.
My track tires, RE71r square setup, look pretty good with -2.5 up front. The rears are stockish. I can't remember, but I think that was -1.9 or -1.6.
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      06-23-2017, 12:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Increasing static camber increases toe-out on a MacPherson based strut. Toe-out has beneficial effect on track and autocross (quicker turn-in and steering response). Having a street camber (say, -1.2º) with a mild toe-in (1/16" total) may result in a zero or mild toe-out when increased to -2.5º camber for track use, which is beneficial.

The problem lies in how MOST camber plates are adjusted. For example, this is a KW camber plate on an E9X M3:



See how once the strut is installed, you can't really access the two inner bolts to loosen the camber plate? Here's an example of Ground Control camber plates:



This appears to accommodate a more significant increase in negative camber before you run out of room to tighten the bolts. But let's say the "zero" position it's aligned to right now is "stock" camber, to get to -1.5º you would have to adjust the plate 1 click in, and to get to 2.5 you would have to adjust up to 3 clicks in. On this particular plate, the two inner bolts may be too far in to be tightened underneath the strut brace.

so while in theory you CAN set the camber for a street and a track setting, in practice it depends on the camber plate you use. A "better" way to adjust would be to fix the camber plate at a certain position with the top of the strut pushed all the way out to the far outer edge (say, the camber plate set to the -2º position) for a total of -1.5º of camber for street, then for track you loosen the top strut nuts and push the assembly in to the max setting to gain ~-0.7º of negative camber for a total of -2.2º rather than trying to adjust the plate itself.
Those other two holes (closer together, on the silver plate on the far side of the rod) are where you move the fasteners that would slip under the tower for more aggressive camber settings. The GC plates give plenty of adjustment.

The trick is getting to an predictable/acceptable, and repeatable toe setting at the end you don't optimize for. That's why some of us leave it be. I'm at -2.75/0
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      06-23-2017, 01:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjn View Post
Those other two holes (closer together, on the silver plate on the far side of the rod) are where you move the fasteners that would slip under the tower for more aggressive camber settings. The GC plates give plenty of adjustment.
No. You don't understand how camber plates work.

Camber plates increase negative camber by moving the TOP of the entire strut assembly one way or another in relation to the strut tower mount. You can't possibly just loosen those two bolts and move the camber assembly. The 4 "yellow" or brass colored bolts all need to be loosened to allow the grey plate underneath the red to slide in and out in relation to the red plat (which is bolted to the tower) to increase and decrease camber. You can see it more clearly on this image:



And as far as consistent toe gains, the amount of toe gain is relative to the amount of camber gain. So if you aligned the car to have, say, 1/16th total toe in at -1.5º camber, then your shop moved the camber up to -2.5º and it became 1/16th toe-out, every time you move it back to -1.5º your toe will be 1/16th in, and at -2.5º it will be 1/16th out. There's no "guessing" game there as long as your shop aligned it right. That's why the "trick" to align for a small amount of toe-in with street camber works, since your track camber (more negative camber) will result in toe-out, which is conducive to track driving.
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Last edited by The HACK; 06-23-2017 at 01:39 PM..
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      06-24-2017, 06:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjn View Post
Those other two holes (closer together, on the silver plate on the far side of the rod) are where you move the fasteners that would slip under the tower for more aggressive camber settings. The GC plates give plenty of adjustment.
No. You don't understand how camber plates work.

Camber plates increase negative camber by moving the TOP of the entire strut assembly one way or another in relation to the strut tower mount. You can't possibly just loosen those two bolts and move the camber assembly. The 4 "yellow" or brass colored bolts all need to be loosened to allow the grey plate underneath the red to slide in and out in relation to the red plat (which is bolted to the tower) to increase and decrease camber. You can see it more clearly on this image:



And as far as consistent toe gains, the amount of toe gain is relative to the amount of camber gain. So if you aligned the car to have, say, 1/16th total toe in at -1.5º camber, then your shop moved the camber up to -2.5º and it became 1/16th toe-out, every time you move it back to -1.5º your toe will be 1/16th in, and at -2.5º it will be 1/16th out. There's no "guessing" game there as long as your shop aligned it right. That's why the "trick" to align for a small amount of toe-in with street camber works, since your track camber (more negative camber) will result in toe-out, which is conducive to track driving.
The toe change as a result of camber change is far more than what you wrote. It's quite high. To the point where I decided it would be almost impossible to accurately set toe. Which, quite frankly, will have a larger effect than a few tenths of camber.
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      06-24-2017, 04:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
No. You don't understand how camber plates work.
Really? Thanks for that professor. Since I've already installed them on mine, I kinda understand.

See the other two holes in the silver plate with the "GC" cut out in the photo you just posted? That's where 2 of the 4 fasteners go if you want enable a more aggressive camber setting. That way the leading 2 fasteners in your pic are no longer in the way of further adjustment. That's where mine are to get -2.75. The plates come with a spacer for them that goes under the silver plate if you need to use them. You obviously tighten all four, in whatever position you select

But I'm sure you know all that already.

Yikes
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      06-25-2017, 08:57 PM   #13
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Another noob question... Do they come in sets of 4 or 2?
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      06-25-2017, 10:36 PM   #14
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comes as set for the front (2)
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      06-26-2017, 04:53 PM   #15
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rjn is correct, GC has 2 options for securing the slider
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      06-26-2017, 05:27 PM   #16
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How much negative camber can you put in to the car w/o plates?
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      06-26-2017, 05:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
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How much negative camber can you put in to the car w/o plates?
zero
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      06-27-2017, 06:18 AM   #18
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Quote:
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zero
Oh. Well I guess I need some camber plates.
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      06-27-2017, 10:39 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjn View Post
Really? Thanks for that professor. Since I've already installed them on mine, I kinda understand.

See the other two holes in the silver plate with the "GC" cut out in the photo you just posted? That's where 2 of the 4 fasteners go if you want enable a more aggressive camber setting. That way the leading 2 fasteners in your pic are no longer in the way of further adjustment. That's where mine are to get -2.75. The plates come with a spacer for them that goes under the silver plate if you need to use them. You obviously tighten all four, in whatever position you select

But I'm sure you know all that already.

Yikes


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      06-27-2017, 11:17 AM   #20
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While I understand that adding rear control arms would be best, are you guys getting at least a decent track alignment on the car with just front camber plates? Or is it necessary to do both at the same time?

Thanks in advance.
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      06-29-2017, 10:33 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstafford View Post
While I understand that adding rear control arms would be best, are you guys getting at least a decent track alignment on the car with just front camber plates? Or is it necessary to do both at the same time?

Thanks in advance.
I got -2.75, I wanted -3 but I couldn't get the toe in spec with the camber above -2.75.
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      06-29-2017, 05:41 PM   #22
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^^^ Thanks.

I ended up ordering GC front camber plates and two sets of Fall Line toe links so that we can replace both the toe and trailing arms. Hoping after this (and the alignment) that I can eliminate some of the tail action I'm getting.
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