BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 CS Model > M2 CS Price for the US: $83,600 (plus $995 Destination)

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-08-2020, 09:12 PM   #2245
GoneIn4Secs
Banned
1286
Rep
1,675
Posts

Drives: BSM F87 LCI (DCT)
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: GTA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acetech View Post
Theoretically yes, I've certainly noticed the benefits of lighter wheels.
Why theoretically, you either feel the difference when you drive or you dont

?
Appreciate 0
      07-08-2020, 09:26 PM   #2246
Acetech
Second Lieutenant
Acetech's Avatar
United_States
219
Rep
275
Posts

Drives: 03 M3. 98 M3. 11 1M
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acetech View Post
Theoretically yes, I've certainly noticed the benefits of lighter wheels.
Why theoretically, you either feel the difference when you drive or you dont

?
Simply to avoid getting into a internet argument with someone who disagrees, people will split hairs over this sort of thing.
I do believe I will notice the difference.
Appreciate 0
      07-08-2020, 09:37 PM   #2247
Sedan_Clan
Law Enforcer
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
Brazil
24810
Rep
22,222
Posts

Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!

iTrader: (26)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acetech View Post
M2CS is a special car, it deserves CCB's
The standard brakes are pretty and big but they are extremely heavy.
I'd do AP's if CCB's weren't available.
CCB's have amazing feel.
CCB's have low dust.
It's a easy decision 🏁
Extremely heavy is a bit of a stretch, no?!? I think it's about a 15 lb. difference between steel and CCB's. I agree that every bit counts, but like CanAutM3 stated in the thread about the weight differences, "Huge [difference] is an exaggeration."
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2020, 03:48 AM   #2248
Artemis
Moderator
Artemis's Avatar
28912
Rep
13,047
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
Does the CCBS make the car feel more agile and faster with the less weight?
I think that he refers to the benefit of reduced unsprung weight (lighter brakes and lighter wheels).

Name:  Unsprung_Weight.jpg
Views: 566
Size:  11.4 KB
__________________
///M is art Artemis
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2020, 05:49 AM   #2249
Acetech
Second Lieutenant
Acetech's Avatar
United_States
219
Rep
275
Posts

Drives: 03 M3. 98 M3. 11 1M
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acetech View Post
M2CS is a special car, it deserves CCB's
The standard brakes are pretty and big but they are extremely heavy.
I'd do AP's if CCB's weren't available.
CCB's have amazing feel.
CCB's have low dust.
It's a easy decision 🏁
Extremely heavy is a bit of a stretch, no?!? I think it's about a 15 lb. difference between steel and CCB's. I agree that every bit counts, but like CanAutM3 stated in the thread about the weight differences, "Huge [difference] is an exaggeration."
The CCB's save 55 pounds over the standard M2c/CS brake rotors.
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2020, 06:14 AM   #2250
Acetech
Second Lieutenant
Acetech's Avatar
United_States
219
Rep
275
Posts

Drives: 03 M3. 98 M3. 11 1M
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
Does the CCBS make the car feel more agile and faster with the less weight?
I think that he refers to the benefit of reduced unsprung weight (lighter brakes and lighter wheels).

Attachment 2359142
Yes, both unsprung and rotational weight
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2020, 07:48 AM   #2251
Sedan_Clan
Law Enforcer
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
Brazil
24810
Rep
22,222
Posts

Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!

iTrader: (26)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acetech View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acetech View Post
M2CS is a special car, it deserves CCB's
The standard brakes are pretty and big but they are extremely heavy.
I'd do AP's if CCB's weren't available.
CCB's have amazing feel.
CCB's have low dust.
It's a easy decision 🏁
Extremely heavy is a bit of a stretch, no?!? I think it's about a 15 lb. difference between steel and CCB's. I agree that every bit counts, but like CanAutM3 stated in the thread about the weight differences, "Huge [difference] is an exaggeration."
The CCB's save 55 pounds over the standard M2c/CS brake rotors.
Yes I know, hence my 15 lb. [per corner] statement. My apologies for not being more specific. I thought most would have understood what I was referring to. My bad!
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2020, 01:03 PM   #2252
Hegge
Banned
880
Rep
790
Posts

Drives: 2020 BMW M2 CS
Join Date: May 2015
Location: PA

iTrader: (0)

If I get a CS allocation, I'll skip the CCBS due to replacement cost. I will just be worrying about the $16k replacement cost too much.

Can't wait for the US allocation process to begin so people know where they stand. Trying to buy a limited edition car is tough.
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2020, 01:21 PM   #2253
Acetech
Second Lieutenant
Acetech's Avatar
United_States
219
Rep
275
Posts

Drives: 03 M3. 98 M3. 11 1M
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

It's a direct fitment to swap the steel rotors if you either had to ditch the CCB rotors due to replacement cost or ended up doing so many track days that you were at risk of warring out the CCB rotors.
Also the complete CCB retro fit kit can be had for 11765$ @ Bimmerworld. And other sources.
Do what make you happy, and good luck on allocation.
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2020, 01:21 PM   #2254
CSBM5
Brigadier General
CSBM5's Avatar
2696
Rep
3,315
Posts

Drives: 2019 M2 Comp, 2011 M3, etc
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Greenville, SC

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
If I get a CS allocation, I'll skip the CCBS due to replacement cost. I will just be worrying about the $16k replacement cost too much.

Can't wait for the US allocation process to begin so people know where they stand. Trying to buy a limited edition car is tough.
It does seem out of place on an $83k car a bit.

BMWNA MSRP for each front rotor is $4377 and rear at $3752, so the four rotors have an MSRP of $16,258. The pads for them are $664 front and $467 rear for a total of $1131. Hence just rotors and pads total to an MSRP of $17,389.

17,389/83,600 = 20.8%. So a bit over 20% of the MSRP of the car for just the replacement brake parts...add in a couple of wear sensors and DIY labor plus buy discounted for maybe $14k. Still pretty pricey DIY brake job.

These are for the F8x parts, but I'd assume they're similar. I did a quick check of FCPEuro's site, and they show no hit on the CCB rotor part number. Their lifetime free replacement warranty is fantastic, but they're not crazy enough to offer the CCB rotors it appears.
__________________
Current Stable:
2024 G20 M340i Melbourne Red/Cognac
2019 F87 M2 Competition 6MT, LBB, slicktop, exec pkg
2007 E91 328i Silver, slushbox, Eibach fr/E93 M3 rear sway bars, ARC-8
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2020, 01:47 PM   #2255
lax01
Major
793
Rep
1,366
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
It does seem out of place on an $83k car a bit.

BMWNA MSRP for each front rotor is $4377 and rear at $3752, so the four rotors have an MSRP of $16,258. The pads for them are $664 front and $467 rear for a total of $1131. Hence just rotors and pads total to an MSRP of $17,389.

17,389/83,600 = 20.8%. So a bit over 20% of the MSRP of the car for just the replacement brake parts...add in a couple of wear sensors and DIY labor plus buy discounted for maybe $14k. Still pretty pricey DIY brake job.

These are for the F8x parts, but I'd assume they're similar. I did a quick check of FCPEuro's site, and they show no hit on the CCB rotor part number. Their lifetime free replacement warranty is fantastic, but they're not crazy enough to offer the CCB rotors it appears.

But lets not discount that the CCB rotors will last MUCH, MUCH longer than regular steel rotors - even on track - they are not fragile pieces of hardware

I bet with just street driving, the CCBs may even last the life of the car...
Appreciate 1
F87EVO4004.00
      07-09-2020, 02:03 PM   #2256
medphysdave
Brigadier General
medphysdave's Avatar
United_States
4527
Rep
4,644
Posts

Drives: M2 CS | 85 of 592
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lax01 View Post
But lets not discount that the CCB rotors will last MUCH, MUCH longer than regular steel rotors - even on track - they are not fragile pieces of hardware

I bet with just street driving, the CCBs may even last the life of the car...
I'm not sure they last much longer on track. I think that is part of the issue. If I could get a 100k+ miles out of them, and a track day or two a year, then I think that would be a no brainier. The problem is that there isn't a good way to gauge how much heat is being put into them. Cook them, and they won't last longer than steal.

I'm interested in being educated on this manner and would certainly like to hear some real world positive experience regarding longevity. I believe I could get them and have them last, but I've done a lot of my own research. It's an expensive gamble to make.
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2020, 02:25 PM   #2257
lax01
Major
793
Rep
1,366
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I'm not sure they last much longer on track. I think that is part of the issue. If I could get a 100k+ miles out of them, and a track day or two a year, then I think that would be a no brainier. The problem is that there isn't a good way to gauge how much heat is being put into them. Cook them, and they won't last longer than steal.

I'm interested in being educated on this manner and would certainly like to hear some real world positive experience regarding longevity. I believe I could get them and have them last, but I've done a lot of my own research. It's an expensive gamble to make.
I mean, you could check when you come off track with a pyrometer? Also not sure what you mean by "cook them"

I had Gen1 PCCB on my GT3 and did multiple track days - the general words of wisdom is that you really need to swap pads at 50% life to avoid extra heat build-up

This is a very long thread on the Porsche PCCB - I was planning to get them re-surfaced once they started to wear - this was on a 2004
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2020, 03:11 PM   #2258
medphysdave
Brigadier General
medphysdave's Avatar
United_States
4527
Rep
4,644
Posts

Drives: M2 CS | 85 of 592
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lax01 View Post
I mean, you could check when you come off track with a pyrometer? Also not sure what you mean by "cook them"

I had Gen1 PCCB on my GT3 and did multiple track days - the general words of wisdom is that you really need to swap pads at 50% life to avoid extra heat build-up

This is a very long thread on the Porsche PCCB - I was planning to get them re-surfaced once they started to wear - this was on a 2004
Thanks for the link. Sorry, by "cook them" I mean getting them up over 700C. This seems to be the point that the carbon in the rotor starts to oxidize. Even thought they claim they are good up to 1400C, but that is the Si structure that can sustain the higher temps. If you can keep your brakes below 700C, then they should last a very very long time.

I've also read about the pad swap at 50%. As well as ensuring a proper bed-in process, and running with traction control off on track, and adding cooling ducts.

I'm not a track rat and don't run at 9/10. I've yet to run across published data on rotor temps vs lap times at various tracks. I think this might give a bit more insight if this data were available. The heat paint is a day late and a dollar short. Setting up real time temp sensors is an option, but an expensive one.

How many sets of steel rotors and pads can be changed for the cost of the CCB option? Clean wheels is a big bonus, but I can pay someone to clean my wheels every week for a long time on 8K especially if a I use some of the cash to have them ceramic coated.

The weight savings is nice, but I think it's a bit overstated.

When discussing rotational mass. The largest gain is going to come from the lightweight wheels and lightened cup 2 tires. The disc is close to the rotational axis and the large but lightweight rotor still has an effective radius that is non zero. With CCB the steering should feel slightly easier to turn at speed and the wheels will be more "willing" to change direction.

The weight savings overall will help with energy efficiency/transfer. Braking, accelerating, fuel consumption.

Unsprung weight savings will help with driver feedback and tire to road connection.

I'm definitely pro CCB if there is a perceived difference, but I suspect it's going to be smaller than most would like beyond pedal feel.
Appreciate 2
CSBM52695.50
sdhotwn2127.00
      07-09-2020, 03:31 PM   #2259
medphysdave
Brigadier General
medphysdave's Avatar
United_States
4527
Rep
4,644
Posts

Drives: M2 CS | 85 of 592
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC

iTrader: (3)

Couple of points from 2015 thread

Wear rate at the track is far higher. If we assume the before and after numbers are accurate, your 200 track miles consumed 22% of the front disk's life, and 31% of the rear's. This translates into a total track lifespan of 900 miles for the front disks and 650 miles for the rears.

At $20k per replacement set that works out to $26.50 per mile on the track in brake disks alone, or $5300 for your 200 mile track weekend. This seems a good time to point out that replacement ZR1 rotors are made by the same OEM as Porsche's rotors, and can be bought for $5400 for the set.

I and I'm sure others are looking forward to your next data point with great interest. Thanks very much for gathering and posting this info! I think it's the best we've got for Gen 3 PCCBs, and worth tons to many of us.

For what it's worth,

I was recently at Barber Motorsport Park for a 918 delivery with my father. The advanced Porsche classes were taking place on track at the same time.

I spoke with a number of the instructors individually about swapping the PCCB rotors on my GT3 to a steel/iron alternative. Each of them came back with the exact same response: no need w/ the new PCCBs.

I completely understand that these guys are paid by Porsche to represent the product and technology in as high a light as possible so their comments should be taken with a grain of salt.

That said... they had a fleet of track dedicated GT3's each equipped with PCCB's. They've had them the entire year and not swapped rotors yet....

That gave me a lot of confidence to stick it out w/ my ceramic rotors....

As a reference for steel rotors:
I'm at 4000-4500 track miles, 4 sets of rear tires, 3 sets of fronts (RS) 1.5 sets of enduro pads front .5 set of rear pads.
1 set of front rotors. Rears like new.
1.5L oil and annoying 200cc at the time..

5 of the 18 track days were at the Ring so minimal braking there, but all the other tracks were brake killers, worse than Sebring and nothing like the easy California tracks..

I'd hate to be looking at my first PCCB rotor replacement.
Refurbishment would be OK at $1000 per corner but not enough real world feed back.

I'm little surprised by the sudden drop in the density measurements. Based on the previous information and the good work of others to calculate the degradation curves I was not expecting to faced with this issue for another 10-20 track days.
Obviously the degradation is not linear.

Thread died out in April 2019. Looks like everyone was pro CCB, then they started wearing faster, some had better luck. Surface transforms came on the seen, and then essix racing.
Appreciate 2
lax01792.50
cncmastr1568.50
      07-09-2020, 04:40 PM   #2260
lax01
Major
793
Rep
1,366
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Couple of points from 2015 thread...
Yeah, I have honestly stopped watching the PCCB space that closely as I no longer have them

I just remember that thread being very informative - especially with cost breakdown like you posted - with hardcore track abuse.

I doubt the M2CS brake cooling is sufficient enough if you are doing 6 sessions all weekend - and really pushing to the limit.

The iron-brakes on my M2 with Pagid RS29s and Castrol SRF (with minimal 997GT3 brake ducting - which probably does less than nothing - who knows) never once faded on the track for me. I'm pretty conservative with brake thresholds though...but they feel absolutely NOTHING like the 6GT3 PCCB which literally give you so much confidence on track (again, granted, the car is/was almost 500 lbs lighter and had bigger 6 piston calipers and 350mm rotors up front) - M2 has 380mm rotors up front.
Appreciate 0
      07-10-2020, 07:51 AM   #2261
sdhotwn
Mmmm... Bavarian
sdhotwn's Avatar
2127
Rep
1,689
Posts

Drives: M2 CS, X5 45e, i3, Cayman S
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Wisconsin, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lax01 View Post
Yeah, I have honestly stopped watching the PCCB space that closely as I no longer have them

I just remember that thread being very informative - especially with cost breakdown like you posted - with hardcore track abuse.

I doubt the M2CS brake cooling is sufficient enough if you are doing 6 sessions all weekend - and really pushing to the limit.

The iron-brakes on my M2 with Pagid RS29s and Castrol SRF (with minimal 997GT3 brake ducting - which probably does less than nothing - who knows) never once faded on the track for me. I'm pretty conservative with brake thresholds though...but they feel absolutely NOTHING like the 6GT3 PCCB which literally give you so much confidence on track (again, granted, the car is/was almost 500 lbs lighter and had bigger 6 piston calipers and 350mm rotors up front) - M2 has 380mm rotors up front.
I'm in Dave's camp as well, and with tracking a reasonable amount I won't touch the CCB's with a $16,000 foot pole (mixed units intentional).

Part of my data point is also based around the fact that My E36 runs only a 12.4 front rotor on a 3200 lb car. It took some doing, but eventually the right pads (PFC08's for what it's worth) eliminated the fade and issues on that car on even very brake intensive tracks and hard running. I know others that run the car on stock size rotors, and even on slicks and higher horsepower the modifications have been minimal in most cases - at most improved ducting on the fronts. Plenty of others have gone to big brake kits etc too, but my point being that track abuse/fade/rotor size combo's that can be dealt with.

Higher horsepower demands bleeding off a lot more speed, so the braking demands will go up for sure, but I trust in finding the right pad compound more than fighting with the risks around the CCB's. It's not just the heat aging risks, but also a chip or catching the rotor during a wheel change, and other issues that can take out a rotor and costs far too much for too little benefit. I'd rather bank on future aftermarket rotors if I really want to try carbon than being stuck with them.

Lastly, the Porsche guys I run with that I know relatively well had all switched to steel for their track days, and all on new cars.
__________________
M2 CS
2023 CB X5 45e
2018 i3 94
2014 Cayman S

Last edited by sdhotwn; 07-10-2020 at 07:57 AM..
Appreciate 1
CSBM52695.50
      07-13-2020, 09:36 PM   #2262
IB M
Brigadier General
2766
Rep
4,239
Posts

Drives: 2017 M3 MG/SO ZCP DCT
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2017 BMW M3  [8.50]
2013 BMW M3  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
If I get a CS allocation, I'll skip the CCBS due to replacement cost. I will just be worrying about the $16k replacement cost too much.

Can't wait for the US allocation process to begin so people know where they stand. Trying to buy a limited edition car is tough.
Are u going to track the car? CCBs will last a very long time for a street driver even with an occasional HPDE. If ur doing more than that get Steelies. If you are a show and go plus weekend canyon carver that doesn't track then CCBs are a must have IMO simply for the light weight, bling and no dust.

BTW - other than brakes what options will be on the USA spec 2CS?
Appreciate 0
      07-14-2020, 06:53 PM   #2263
2020M2Competition
Lieutenant
2020M2Competition's Avatar
429
Rep
433
Posts

Drives: Yes
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Florida

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IB M View Post
BTW - other than brakes what options will be on the USA spec 2CS?
IIRC I think the only factory options are going to be

Exterior color
Transmission
Wheel color
Brakes
Tires
Appreciate 1
IB M2765.50
      07-14-2020, 08:29 PM   #2264
IB M
Brigadier General
2766
Rep
4,239
Posts

Drives: 2017 M3 MG/SO ZCP DCT
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2017 BMW M3  [8.50]
2013 BMW M3  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2020M2Competition View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IB M View Post
BTW - other than brakes what options will be on the USA spec 2CS?
IIRC I think the only factory options are going to be

Exterior color
Transmission
Wheel color
Brakes
Tires
Thanks - I'll take mine AW, 6MT with black wheels and CCBs.

Will the cars get PDC or HUD?
Appreciate 0
      07-14-2020, 09:11 PM   #2265
black ming
Enlisted Member
60
Rep
34
Posts

Drives: 1M, M2CS
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Hong Kong

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IB M View Post
Thanks - I'll take mine AW, 6MT with black wheels and CCBs.

Will the cars get PDC or HUD?
Yes. No. PDC is stock but not even the option of HUD which is fingernails-on-blackboard annoying for me.

In HK we even get the option of heated seats (for the two days a year when the temperature rockets below 15 degrees C.

Also available is 'windscreen with grey shade band (not with driving assistant)' ------

But on the peak 2-series performance warrior, no HUD.
Appreciate 0
      07-15-2020, 11:01 AM   #2266
sdhotwn
Mmmm... Bavarian
sdhotwn's Avatar
2127
Rep
1,689
Posts

Drives: M2 CS, X5 45e, i3, Cayman S
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Wisconsin, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IB M View Post
Are u going to track the car? CCBs will last a very long time for a street driver even with an occasional HPDE. If ur doing more than that get Steelies. If you are a show and go plus weekend canyon carver that doesn't track then CCBs are a must have IMO simply for the light weight, bling and no dust.

BTW - other than brakes what options will be on the USA spec 2CS?
The funny thing is I agree with this, yet the logic also the opposite of the engineering intent.

The CCB's will give you the near infinite life and good brake feel etc a street driver and the very low brake dust which are all great for this kind of car if you aren't tracking.

On the flip side, the benefits of the higher temp tolerance before fade, lower rotational weight, etc were all for racing application, which is where these fall down for us with mortal pocketbooks because of the tendency for rotor to wear out prematurely from heating rather than material removal. Plus the additional handling fragility risks to deal with.

I think they look gorgeous, and I'd love to have the gold caliper over the red. But definitely sticking with the steel option for my order.
__________________
M2 CS
2023 CB X5 45e
2018 i3 94
2014 Cayman S
Appreciate 1
CSBM52695.50
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:34 AM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST