[cpxchewy]

I was at the dealer as my friend is a bmw tech and he was willing to replace my timing chain on the 320i before I lose the warranty. The car had only a jb4 installed and it was removed prior to coming in.

When connected to ISTA the system automatically logged the VIN as "engine tampered" due to the Max boost being over a 320i normal max boost. He couldn't process the timing chain as a warranty fix.

I figured since the M2 S55 is a detuned engine, this might be be relevant to this group for anyone who's thinking of just tuning to M3 power. Seems like it'll still get flagged.

[Thescout13]

Not surprising. If the Flexray data dump is part of the new warranty processing procedure for engine warranty claims, any tune whether piggy back or flash will show up. They have always had this ability (at least for the last 8 or so years), the difference now may be that the tech manual procedures have been updated so that they must due a data dump before a warranty claim for an engine component is approved.

The above is all conjecture.

[rmeitz167]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Not surprising. If the Flexray data dump is part of the new warranty processing procedure for engine warranty claims, any tune whether piggy back or flash will show up. They have always had this ability (at least for the last 8 or so years), the difference now may be that the tech manual procedures have been updated so that they must due a data dump before a warranty claim for an engine component is approved.

The above is all conjecture.

It has been implemented since March as an auto response feature when scanning the vehicle. Prior it was really only an issue if IRap needed to be performed or a regional was involved on a drivetrain issue. Now it forces the tech to answer and respond and send data to bmw and its logged. Voiding powertrain warranty but nothing else. Only happens on dealer version ista which runs through a main server. Confirmed my latest oem but not dealer server supported ista does not have the response active.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by rmeitz167

It has been implemented since March as an auto response feature when scanning the vehicle. Prior it was really only an issue if IRap needed to be performed or a regional was involved on a drivetrain issue. Now it forces the tech to answer and respond and send data to bmw and its logged. Voiding powertrain warranty but nothing else. Only happens on dealer version ista which runs through a main server. Confirmed my latest oem but not dealer server supported ista does not have the response active.

This would probably save them a ton of money in typical warranty claims, since now they have an active tool collecting data, allowing them to weasel their way out of paying of anything drivetrain related that fails, regardless of the cause, as long as a flash tune is auto-detected. Nice..

I guess all good thing must eventually come to end, like your powertrain warranty, for instance, when tuned..

[rmeitz167]

Originally Posted by Poochie

This would probably save them a ton in typical warranty claims, since now they have an active tool, to be able to weasel their way out of paying of anything drivetrain related that fails, regardless of the cause, as long as a flash tune is auto-detected. Nice!

I guess all good thing comes to end, like your powertrain warranty, for instance..

If i had a dollar for every time i laughed at our regional for crankhubs and s63 engines we warrantied i would be rich. Drag radials, clearly put back to stock, and a quick search of the ig name on the back window showed big turbos and mods but sure ill warranty it. Then they would deny an n20 for having a variation in oil changes when someone went a little over or did it themselves lol. i dont miss the dealership for that stuff. I never minded modded vehicles. Assuming people put their jb4 to 0 etc lol

[DriverDaily]

The fact that all powertrain claims are denied automatically is like some shady insurance scam.

[Kohner86]

Originally Posted by DriverDaily

The fact that all powertrain claims are denied automatically is like some shady insurance scam.

Going to have to disagree.

Flashing the engine to increase power past what BMW intended can cause all sorts of problems for the powertrain. The warranty is designed to cover manufacturing defects which cause things to fail prematurely, not fix things broken by pushing the car harder than was intended.

It's generally understood that messing with this stuff will void the powertrain warranty, BMW is just automating something they've been doing manually for a bit now and I would do the exact same thing in their position.

To be honest I don't really understand why folks mess with this stuff on brand new cars (with warranties) so much considering how much engine work on a car like this costs. Unless your in a financial position to shrug off a 10-20k repair bill it seems like a really big risk to add a bit more HP to a car which already has plenty.

[DriverDaily]

Originally Posted by Kohner86

Going to have to disagree.

Flashing the engine to increase power past what BMW intended can cause all sorts of problems for the powertrain. The warranty is designed to cover manufacturing defects which cause things to fail prematurely, not fix things broken by pushing the car harder than was intended.

It's generally understood that messing with this stuff will void the powertrain warranty, BMW is just automating something they've been doing manually for a bit now and I would do the exact same thing in their position.

To be honest I don't really understand why folks mess with this stuff on brand new cars (with warranties) so much considering how much engine work on a car like this costs. Unless your in a financial position to shrug off a 10-20k repair bill it seems like a really big risk to add a bit more HP to a car which already has plenty.

BMW was fined by the FTC in 2015 for deceptive warranty practices.

If BMW would like to blanket deny powertrain warranty claims for vehicles with aftermarket software there is actually a waiver they can apply for from the FTC stating their proprietary software is necessary. But they haven't.

Nobody is expecting BMW to cover charge pipes on a car with pure turbos. But it's ridiculous to automatically decline a timing chain, a part that they had to issue a warranty extension for, if the vehicle experienced any level of boost greater than stock.

[Kohner86]

Originally Posted by DriverDaily

BMW was fined by the FTC in 2015 for deceptive warranty practices.

If BMW would like to blanket deny powertrain warranty claims for vehicles with aftermarket software there is actually a waiver they can apply for apply for from the FTC stating their proprietary software is necessary. But they haven't.

Nobody is expecting BMW to cover charge pipes on a car with pure turbos. But it's ridiculous to automatically decline a timing chain, a part that they had to issue a warranty extension for, if the vehicle experienced any level of boost greater than stock.

IMO the issue basically boils down to the fact that so much of the engine is controlled by the computer that a bad tune can wreak havoc on them. Maybe a stretch but I'd bet a sufficiently bad tune could cause damage to the timing system since the timings are controlled by the ECU.

If the tunes are truly safe the companies making them should back them up with their own warranties (some do) since BMW shouldn't be held responsible for some 3rd party breaking the engine.

I understand that a lot of time the damage may not be caused by the tune itself but it's going to then turn into a big finger pointing match since neither party wants to foot the bill, which is where I go back to it's just not worth the risk.

Another thing I'll point out is that if BMW starts to pay for repairs to modded cars where do they draw the line? Most of the tunes I read about don't seem to be pushing it too hard but I've also read about some pushing it past 500whp. There has got to be a line somewhere and that is not going to be easy to define since people will try and abuse it claiming 'it's only an extra 10psi boost, what's the big deal?'

[MadM2C]

Originally Posted by Kohner86

IMO the issue basically boils down to the fact that so much of the engine is controlled by the computer that a bad tune can wreak havoc on them. Maybe a stretch but I'd bet a sufficiently bad tune could cause damage to the timing system since the timings are controlled by the ECU.

If the tunes are truly safe the companies making them should back them up with their own warranties (some do) since BMW shouldn't be held responsible for some 3rd party breaking the engine.

I understand that a lot of time the damage may not be caused by the tune itself but it's going to then turn into a big finger pointing match since neither party wants to foot the bill, which is where I go back to it's just not worth the risk.

Another thing I'll point out is that if BMW starts to pay for repairs to modded cars where do they draw the line? Most of the tunes I read about don't seem to be pushing it too hard but I've also read about some pushing it past 500whp. There has got to be a line somewhere and that is not going to be easy to define since people will try and abuse it claiming 'it's only an extra 10psi boost, what's the big deal?'

I’m curious if you have a GTS tune or a CS tune, if one can argue that the car is running within spec of an s55 capabilities.

[Kohner86]

Originally Posted by MadM2C

I’m curious if you have a GTS tune or a CS tune, if one can argue that the car is running within spec of an s55 capabilities.

Sure it could be argued, a lot of things can be argued, proving it would be neigh impossible though since we didn't engineer it.

Just thinking out loud a bit, I'll bet actuarials play into it quite a bit. There is certainly a relationship between engine tune and how long the engine lasts (on average). Thus BMW has a good statistical idea of how many cars they sell will need warranty work which let's them price the car (which includes a warranty) in a way to make sure they are profitable long term. Letting people change the tune messes this calculation up and could make the cars unprofitable, which BMW of course will try and prevent.

I'll bet that when you buy a higher tuned version like an M2 CS that part of the higher sticker price is allowing them more room for warranty work since there is likely a higher probability of it being needed.

[MadM2C]

Originally Posted by Kohner86

Sure it could be argued, a lot of things can be argued, proving it would be neigh impossible though since we didn't engineer it.

Just thinking out loud a bit, I'll bet actuarials play into it quite a bit. There is certainly a relationship between engine tune and how long the engine lasts (on average). Thus BMW has a good statistical idea of how many cars they sell will need warranty work which let's them price the car (which includes a warranty) in a way to make sure they are profitable long term. Letting people change the tune messes this calculation up and could make the cars unprofitable, which BMW of course will try and prevent.

I'll bet that when you buy a higher tuned version like an M2 CS that part of the higher sticker price is allowing them more room for warranty work since there is likely a higher probability of it being needed.

I’m sure that is a variable for them, but at same time 400hp or 450hp for an s55 is probably not going to make much of a difference in wear during the warranty period.

[Kohner86]

Originally Posted by MadM2C

I’m sure that is a variable for them, but at same time 400hp or 450hp for an s55 is probably not going to make much of a difference in wear during the warranty period.

Probably not a huge difference but even a 5% increase in claims represents a lot of money. I'm sure they have all sorts data & analysis on it. As a bit of a stats nerd I would love to take a look at it but BMW probably guards the data pretty tightly.

[DriverDaily]

Originally Posted by Kohner86

Probably not a huge difference but even a 5% increase in claims represents a lot of money. I'm sure they have all sorts data & analysis on it. As a bit of a stats nerd I would love to take a look at it but BMW probably guards the data pretty tightly.

We can safely assume that not all powertrain parts exceed BMW's failure rates when tuning to a certain power level. But all powertrain parts are being denied because of it. That's the shady part.

[rmeitz167]

Originally Posted by DriverDaily

We can safely assume that not all powertrain parts exceed BMW's failure rates when tuning to a certain power level. But all powertrain parts are being denied because of it. That's the shady part.

Confused how you could actually come to that conclusion. Additional power puts strain on every powertrain part. Period.

[NathObeaN]

Originally Posted by rmeitz167

Confused how you could actually come to that conclusion. Additional power puts strain on every powertrain part. Period.

Because it's very unlikely they engineered every component to withstand, for example, exactly 500bhp. Instead, some components are built to withstand 500, some 600, some 1000. It would be nigh impossible to purposefully manufacture every component to have the same tolerance. The DCT transmission for example is manufactured to withstand a considerable amount of torque more than OEM specs, including the M4 GTS. Doesn't mean the crank was designed with the same tolerance level.

[MadM2C]

Originally Posted by NathObeaN

Because it's very unlikely they engineered every component to withstand, for example, exactly 500bhp. Instead, some components are built to withstand 500, some 600, some 1000. It would be nigh impossible to purposefully manufacture every component to have the same tolerance. The DCT transmission for example is manufactured to withstand a considerable amount of torque more than OEM specs, including the M4 GTS. Doesn't mean the crank was designed with the same tolerance level.

I would assume BMW would build everything to withstand a beating from a m4GTS let alone m2c m3 etc

[Kohner86]

Originally Posted by NathObeaN

Because it's very unlikely they engineered every component to withstand, for example, exactly 500bhp. Instead, some components are built to withstand 500, some 600, some 1000. It would be nigh impossible to purposefully manufacture every component to have the same tolerance. The DCT transmission for example is manufactured to withstand a considerable amount of torque more than OEM specs, including the M4 GTS. Doesn't mean the crank was designed with the same tolerance level.

Keep in mind though that parts are not 'designed to handle 500hp' perse, they are designed to handle 500hp with acceptable failure rates. Increasing HP will make parts fail more often, going back to my point about the actuarials.