[CSBM5]

     Featured on BIMMERPOST.com

I took the M2C to a BMW CCA event on the Michelin wet skid at their proving grounds yesterday. As usual, the Sandlapper chapter put on yet another amazing event thanks to Tom Lappin and Mike Renner. The skidpad at Michelin is 1/2 mile in circumference. Let that sink in for a bit. It's smooth concrete, uniformly wetted that is almost 1000' in diameter, a 1/2 mile around.

For TLDR'ers - EPS steering is very well done, S55 has decently linear response, car communicates very well, drifts well

Long story about to be condensed as best as I can.

Intro:

- background: first started autocrossing in 1975, first track event 1981 at Road Atlanta, former track instructor, track rat through the 80s, back at it starting 15+ years ago, autocross instructor, etc, etc. BMW CCA member for almost 40 years, first introduced to BMWs by my father back in 1971.

- on paper, the M2C appeared to be the first BMW since the E9x era that my wife or I were interested in
- most appealing was the retuned/reprogrammed EPS (hardware differences? don't know); we were appalled at the F30 overall outcome (i.e. just read the C&D article from the kinematics and compliance machine comparison with E90 -- sums it up, objectively, pretty well), and not enthused by the size of the F80 nor the steering feel, especially approaching/at/over the limits of the contact patch. Supposedly the ZCP version is improved.
- the M2C is smaller in wheelbase and length than the E46 M3 +++

- the skidpad event would be the perfect opportunity to compare the EPS controlled M2C with my incredible (HPS of course) E90 M3 I've run there also, and specifically to have repeated opportunity over the 4 hours to thoroughly shake down the EPS -- go or no go?

- main concerns going in were S55/turbo throttle response and EPS versus the eight individual throttle bodied S65 and HPS in the M3

Skidpad Evaluation:

- speeds are about 50-60 mph which is a pretty good clip on the pad, you don't want the fronts near the limit when you initiate; mat the throttle, 3rd gear, and just as the S55 rush is going to hit you have to be ahead of it of course and getting ready to modulate the throttle once the tail is loose
- once drifting, the M2C is very controllable with excellent communication from both the front and rear of the car; the M3/4 seats with the adjustable bolsters snugged in as tight as possible were superb
- after a bit of practice, I was easily able to maintain a drift for more than 1 lap of the pad just like in the M3.
- if you start to lose the drift, you have to quickly be aggressive on the throttle with the S55 (much more so than you might guess, as in matting it quickly) and then once again be well ahead of the car, in your thinking and actions, to manage the outcome as you regain the drift; the E90 M3 with the S65 is more linear and modulate-able by comparison (as one would expect with the 8 throttle plates just a couple of inches from the intake valves)
- the throttle on the M3 is like a rheostat attached to the rear drift angle; that connection is much more blunt and not as finely "connected" with the M2C
- the M2C S55 was emitting all kinds of wild noise on throttle and especially modulating/lifting throttle that was enjoyable to those there; of course it doesn't sound anything like my Dinan exhausted S65, but both myself and many there thought it sounded wicked. I'm so far very pleased with the sound.
- no video or pictures were allowed at the event

EPS thoughts:

- this system is *much* better than earlier attempts (i.e. first gen F30), and is very well done; I don't say a word of that lightly as those who know me will atest
- I did numerous laps where my goal was to not drift but instead approach the limits of the front contact patches, evaluate the feel at the peak, and then push it just over that -- all the time critically analyzing the feedback I'm getting though the steering wheel
- this EPS system is well done imo; all my fears of how it wouldn't be acceptable versus the superb HPS in the E90 M3 were for naught
- you can easily feel, with a light grip on the wheel, incipient loss of grip as you reach the peak of the tire's tractive force curve; just like a good HPS
- it might be have a touch of numbness in the never-never land just over the peak, but it's minimal if there -- you just drive this thing and don't notice it
- the build up of steering wheel force required versus lateral grip level is absolutely fine - just like a good HPS system -thank you BMW
- the rather rapid fall off in that steering wheel force as you reach the peak contact patch loads is well transmitted - just like a good HPS system - thank you BMW
- caveat to all the above? This was all done on the wet skidpad -- no clue how this thing feels (yet) under the same conditions on dry pavement.

- brief non-skidpad EPS thought -- highway driving is incredible with the M2C; with 1000 miles of highway done, this car is nailed down straight ahead, amazingly nailed down; no moving to one side or the other just pure confidence inspiring straight ahead feel with good off center response. I've driven a lot of cars in the past 44 years, and it's one of the best in that regard of all

MDM mode quick note

- toward the end of the day, I fortunately had the thought of trying MDM mode (of course all the above is DSC fully off), so I did numerous laps with MDM enabled to see how it worked
- this car *will drift*, somewhat, in the wet at least, in MDM mode
- for those with prior MDM mode experience in other cars, take note -- seriously. BMW lights up the "slippery car" light, when the MDM light is also on, for a reason
- they've clearly done a lot of programming work that I'm confident wasn't a cakewalk
- the throttle response is very much numbed down as you'd expect
- the car wants to stay stable, but with a smooth and slight Scandinavian flick followed by moderately hard throttle, I could drift at a minor angle for a good while until a minor perturbation would cause it to reign in the yaw angle
- just 2-3 laps and I was done with it though, no fun, can't control the car like I want to of course (as expected, and as required obviously)
- however, it's a pretty amazing example of chassis systems engineering and programming. BMW deserves yet another kudos for this one. I can only fathom the person-hours spent in programming/verification testing/quality assurance/etc.

Summary

- my EPS worries were for naught; the system is very well done (here's that caveat again -- this was all in the wet experience)
- perhaps my expectation level was so low that I tainted my observations? Don't know. I do know I enjoyed the car, the steering, et al, very much since when your goal is to critically evaluate the car and you finish your session having just had a blast driving, but you realize you didn't actively think about issues and just wagged the thing having fun, the first thought is "they got it right"
- S55 is definitely modulate-able and perhaps the most linearly responding turbo engine I've driven (note -- haven't driven modern Porsche turbos, etc)
- M2C is a keeper for now

Regards,
Chuck

[scflaw]

Great write up!

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

I took the M2C to a BMW CCA event on the Michelin wet skid at their proving grounds yesterday. As usual, the Sandlapper chapter put on yet another amazing event thanks to Tom Lappin and Mike Renner. The skidpad at Michelin is 1/2 mile in circumference. Let that sink in for a bit. It's smooth concrete, uniformly wetted that is almost 1000' in diameter, a 1/2 mile around.

For TLDR'ers - EPS steering is very well done, S55 has decently linear response, car communicates very well, drifts well

Long story about to be condensed as best as I can.

Intro:

- background: first started autocrossing in 1975, first track event 1981 at Road Atlanta, former track instructor, track rat through the 80s, back at it starting 15+ years ago, autocross instructor, etc, etc. BMW CCA member for almost 40 years, first introduced to BMWs by my father back in 1971.

- on paper, the M2C appeared to be the first BMW since the E9x era that my wife or I were interested in
- most appealing was the retuned/reprogrammed EPS (hardware differences? don't know); we were appalled at the F30 overall outcome (i.e. just read the C&D article from the kinematics and compliance machine comparison with E90 -- sums it up, objectively, pretty well), and not enthused by the size of the F80 nor the steering feel, especially approaching/at/over the limits of the contact patch. Supposedly the ZCP version is improved.
- the M2C is smaller in wheelbase and length than the E46 M3 +++

- the skidpad event would be the perfect opportunity to compare the EPS controlled M2C with my incredible (HPS of course) E90 M3 I've run there also, and specifically to have repeated opportunity over the 4 hours to thoroughly shake down the EPS -- go or no go?

- main concerns going in were S55/turbo throttle response and EPS versus the eight individual throttle bodied S65 and HPS in the M3

Skidpad Evaluation:

- speeds are about 50-60 mph which is a pretty good clip on the pad, you don't want the fronts near the limit when you initiate; mat the throttle, 3rd gear, and just as the S55 rush is going to hit you have to be ahead of it of course and getting ready to modulate the throttle once the tail is loose
- once drifting, the M2C is very controllable with excellent communication from both the front and rear of the car; the M3/4 seats with the adjustable bolsters snugged in as tight as possible were superb
- after a bit of practice, I was easily able to maintain a drift for more than 1 lap of the pad just like in the M3.
- if you start to lose the drift, you have to quickly be aggressive on the throttle with the S55 (much more so than you might guess, as in matting it quickly) and then once again be well ahead of the car, in your thinking and actions, to manage the outcome as you regain the drift; the E90 M3 with the S65 is more linear and modulate-able by comparison (as one would expect with the 8 throttle plates just a couple of inches from the intake valves)
- the throttle on the M3 is like a rheostat attached to the rear drift angle; that connection is much more blunt and not as finely "connected" with the M2C
- the M2C S55 was emitting all kinds of wild noise on throttle and especially modulating/lifting throttle that was enjoyable to those there; of course it doesn't sound anything like my Dinan exhausted S65, but both myself and many there thought it sounded wicked. I'm so far very pleased with the sound.
- no video or pictures were allowed at the event

EPS thoughts:

- this system is *much* better than earlier attempts (i.e. first gen F30), and is very well done; I don't say a word of that lightly as those who know me will atest
- I did numerous laps where my goal was to not drift but instead approach the limits of the front contact patches, evaluate the feel at the peak, and then push it just over that -- all the time critically analyzing the feedback I'm getting though the steering wheel
- this EPS system is well done imo; all my fears of how it wouldn't be acceptable versus the superb HPS in the E90 M3 were for naught
- you can easily feel, with a light grip on the wheel, incipient loss of grip as you reach the peak of the tire's tractive force curve; just like a good HPS
- it might be have a touch of numbness in the never-never land just over the peak, but it's minimal if there -- you just drive this thing and don't notice it
- the build up of steering wheel force required versus lateral grip level is absolutely fine - just like a good HPS system -thank you BMW
- the rather rapid fall off in that steering wheel force as you reach the peak contact patch loads is well transmitted - just like a good HPS system - thank you BMW
- caveat to all the above? This was all done on the wet skidpad -- no clue how this thing feels (yet) under the same conditions on dry pavement.

- brief non-skidpad EPS thought -- highway driving is incredible with the M2C; with 1000 miles of highway done, this car is nailed down straight ahead, amazingly nailed down; no moving to one side or the other just pure confidence inspiring straight ahead feel with good off center response. I've driven a lot of cars in the past 44 years, and it's one of the best in that regard of all

MDM mode quick note

- toward the end of the day, I fortunately had the thought of trying MDM mode (of course all the above is DSC fully off), so I did numerous laps with MDM enabled to see how it worked
- this car *will drift*, somewhat, in the wet at least, in MDM mode
- for those with prior MDM mode experience in other cars, take note -- seriously. BMW lights up the "slippery car" light, when the MDM light is also on, for a reason
- they've clearly done a lot of programming work that I'm confident wasn't a cakewalk
- the throttle response is very much numbed down as you'd expect
- the car wants to stay stable, but with a smooth and slight Scandinavian flick followed by moderately hard throttle, I could drift at a minor angle for a good while until a minor perturbation would cause it to reign in the yaw angle
- just 2-3 laps and I was done with it though, no fun, can't control the car like I want to of course (as expected, and as required obviously)
- however, it's a pretty amazing example of chassis systems engineering and programming. BMW deserves yet another kudos for this one. I can only fathom the person-hours spent in programming/verification testing/quality assurance/etc.

Summary

- my EPS worries were for naught; the system is very well done (here's that caveat again -- this was all in the wet experience)
- perhaps my expectation level was so low that I tainted my observations? Don't know. I do know I enjoyed the car, the steering, et al, very much since when your goal is to critically evaluate the car and you finish your session having just had a blast driving, but you realize you didn't actively think about issues and just wagged the thing having fun, the first thought is "they got it right"
- S55 is definitely modulate-able and perhaps the most linearly responding turbo engine I've driven (note -- haven't driven modern Porsche turbos, etc)
- M2C is a keeper for now

Regards,
Chuck

Awesome! Good to hear about the steering vs the e9x. If you did a full comparison I'd love to read it, considering making the switch myself..

[COChris]

That track sounds insanely fun! Thanks for sharing.

[///M Houbi]

Thank you SO MUCH for this, thank you!

I'm coming from an E46 and its HPS and precise steering feel & feedback are probably #1 on my "things i will deeply miss" list... (not entirely sure if HPS or throttle response is 1st place...)

It seems as I might be able to remove this from my list very soon

[BlkSVT]

Thanks Chuck, this is just awesome stuff!

BTW, I think I saw you mention in another thread that you were the guy that bought the LBB at Motorwerks Barrington? if so, I changed my drive in to work to see yours and the BSM parked out there for the ~week they were there. Self-torture waiting for my build I guess

Beautiful car!

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by ///M Houbi

Thank you SO MUCH for this, thank you!

I'm coming from an E46 and its HPS and precise steering feel & feedback are probably #1 on my "things i will deeply miss" list... (not entirely sure if HPS or throttle response is 1st place...)

It seems as I might be able to remove this from my list very soon

My daughter has an E46 ZHP sedan (slicktop, 6MT) with Ground Control coilovers, Turner front and rear sway bars, 8.5"/255/35s all around, etc, and I *love* driving that car whenever we visit her. I believe the steering rack is a quicker ratio than the E46 M3 even, but it's like 10/10ths steering feel/pleasure to me. We've co-driven this car for more than a decade in autox events, had it at private track rentals, etc, so lots of seat time in it for me. Simply amazing connected feel, force build up, feedback, etc.

If that is considered 10/10ths then the E90 M3 would be more like 9/10ths or so. It too has great force build up, feel, etc, but it feels a bit "thick" by comparison (not sure how to put it into words, lol).

The M2C by comparison is maybe 8.5/10ths? Honestly, I would almost say you need to evaluate it yourself as "it's different" than the HPS cars, I just can't quite capture why in words. However, as I mentioned above, the info is there for the taking in the wheel unlike some earlier attempts.

Way too many sessions I forgot about evaluating the EPS and just hooned it out there having a blast. Seven minute sessions are exhausting and with your next session coming up 21 minutes after you come in, we got lots of pad time - more than most of us could endure after hour three. The car was lots of fun and not disappointing to me in the least.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by BlkSVT

Thanks Chuck, this is just awesome stuff!

BTW, I think I saw you mention in another thread that you were the guy that bought the LBB at Motorwerks Barrington? if so, I changed my drive in to work to see yours and the BSM parked out there for the ~week they were there. Self-torture waiting for my build I guess

Beautiful car!

Yep, that is ours now...my wife's new car. BMW of Barrington was a fantastic dealership experience. I met numerous enthusiasts there including the sales manager Michael, and they far surpassed my expectations. Apparently they sell a large percentage of cars to out of state buyers compared to normal BMW dealerships. We've been on the list locally since April, and had the 3rd allocation spot, but it appeared that might not be available at the soonest until October or November meaning an early 2019 build. At that point, I was just going to hold off until a March or later build spot was available (2020 model year starts in March).

Then the thread in this forum pops up with the exact car we would have ordered (LBB, 6MT, slicktop, Exec pkg) with no other junk, er stuff, on it. I put a deposit on it shortly after I saw the thread.

[///M Houbi]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

My daughter has an E46 ZHP sedan (slicktop, 6MT) with Ground Control coilovers, Turner front and rear sway bars, 8.5"/255/35s all around, etc, and I *love* driving that car whenever we visit her. I believe the steering rack is a quicker ratio than the E46 M3 even, but it's like 10/10ths steering feel/pleasure to me. We've co-driven this car for more than a decade in autox events, had it at private track rentals, etc, so lots of seat time in it for me. Simply amazing connected feel, force build up, feedback, etc.

If that is considered 10/10ths then the E90 M3 would be more like 9/10ths or so. It too has great force build up, feel, etc, but it feels a bit "thick" by comparison (not sure how to put it into words, lol).

The M2C by comparison is maybe 8.5/10ths? Honestly, I would almost say you need to evaluate it yourself as "it's different" than the HPS cars, I just can't quite capture why in words. However, as I mentioned above, the info is there for the taking in the wheel unlike some earlier attempts.

Way too many sessions I forgot about evaluating the EPS and just hooned it out there having a blast. Seven minute sessions are exhausting and with your next session coming up 21 minutes after you come in, we got lots of pad time - more than most of us could endure after hour three. The car was lots of fun and not disappointing to me in the least.

I was expecting something from 5/10 to 6/10. If its somewhere around 8/10 or even more i will be a happy camper.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Awesome! Good to hear about the steering vs the e9x. If you did a full comparison I'd love to read it, considering making the switch myself..

Let me know what you might like contrasted with the E90 M3. The M2C is going to be my wife's primary car, so the M3 isn't going anywhere. I have no plans to ever sell it, at the moment anyway, so I will have lots of opportunities to compare them. Maybe this weekend, my wife and I will duplicate what we did when we got the M3 six years ago -- take two cars out for a country road "session" and change cars numerous times, compare notes, have a blast driving them. Back then it was the M3 versus my E39 M5.

I should have another chance to evaluate the M2C versus the M3 in the dry (hopefully) at an autocross on the Michelin "black lake" next month.

[Mavus]

awesome stuff

can you provide any feedback re brake feel/modulation?

thx

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Let me know what you might like contrasted with the E90 M3. The M2C is going to be my wife's primary car, so the M3 isn't going anywhere. I have no plans to ever sell it, at the moment anyway, so I will have lots of opportunities to compare them. Maybe this weekend, my wife and I will duplicate what we did when we got the M3 six years ago -- take two cars out for a country road "session" and change cars numerous times, compare notes, have a blast driving them. Back then it was the M3 versus my E39 M5.

I should have another chance to evaluate the M2C versus the M3 in the dry (hopefully) at an autocross on the Michelin "black lake" next month.

I
I'd say the E90 is a fantastic all round machine, and in my eyes cant be beat for the money. However it edges more 'GT' than sports car to me. It's fantastically balanced, the engine is strong, the chassis is supple, the steering feels connected and direct. I really like the throttle response and right foot adjust ability. With the right exhaust the sound is special for sure (I have an MPE), although never spine tingling. It feels like a driver focused package, and has the right mix of 'oldschool' BMW feel and modern tech.

On the flip side it struggles to hide its weight in transitions, the engine even at the top end never feels rabidly quick (I think the love for the S65 is a touch overblown tbh), and ultimately whilst I really love driving it is missing a certain excitement factor. For example I drove a Shelby GT350 which is laugh out loud quick and incredibly visceral, back to back with my E90 it felt very restrained and lacking drama in comparison.

I suspect what I'm looking for only takes me into Pcar territory, but the M2 Comp looks like it may be a good interim option. Does it give you the 'fizz' when you drive it, or does it feel too digital? Sounds like the steering is very good, I had no issues with the 991.1 C2S steering so if it's at that level then happy days. The e90 has great steering but it can feel a touch 'gloopy' so I'm not too bothered as long as it feels connected (i drove a 2015 F80, the steering felt very disconnected. Similarly a Mini Cooper S which is also BMW essentially). It sounds how it sounds I suppose, wont open that can of worms..

Long winded answer but really interested to know is it an all around more exciting package than the E90, enough to warrant dropping another $30k

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Montaver

I
I'd say the E90 is a fantastic all round machine, and in my eyes cant be beat for the money. However it edges more 'GT' than sports car to me. It's fantastically balanced, the engine is strong, the chassis is supple, the steering feels connected and direct. I really like the throttle response and right foot adjust ability. With the right exhaust the sound is special for sure (I have an MPE), although never spine tingling. It feels like a driver focused package, and has the right mix of 'oldschool' BMW feel and modern tech.

On the flip side it struggles to hide its weight in transitions, the engine even at the top end never feels rabidly quick (I think the love for the S65 is a touch overblown tbh), and ultimately whilst I really love driving it is missing a certain excitement factor. For example I drove a Shelby GT350 which is laugh out loud quick and incredibly visceral, back to back with my E90 it felt very restrained and lacking drama in comparison.

I suspect what I'm looking for only takes me into Pcar territory, but the M2 Comp looks like it may be a good interim option. Does it give you the 'fizz' when you drive it, or does it feel too digital? Sounds like the steering is very good, I had no issues with the 991.1 C2S steering so if it's at that level then happy days. The e90 has great steering but it can feel a touch 'gloopy' so I'm not too bothered as long as it feels connected (i drove a 2015 F80, the steering felt very disconnected. Similarly a Mini Cooper S which is also BMW essentially). It sounds how it sounds I suppose, wont open that can of worms..

Long winded answer but really interested to know is it an all around more exciting package than the E90, enough to warrant dropping another $30k

Just do it!
I'm coming from an E90 M3 6MT(and inbetween other BMWs like 1M and OG M2)
and you will not be dissapointed, the engine is a masterpiece, the car feels agile and steers light and very precise.
Here Phil's M2C with Lightweight exhaust(OPF included)
https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram...79599360_n.mp4

Steeringfeel is semi digital but hey ESP, balance easiness of catching drifting rearend: Godlike.

Cheers
Robin

[Jenius]

Thanks for sharing!

May I also ask, what is your most preferred steering mode (i.e., Comfort, Sport or Sport Plus).

I few EPS cars that I have driven in the past often left me in the comfort mode, which I thought has the best feel and agility. Sportier mode seems to make them artificially heavy. What's your thoughts on this?

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Montaver

I
I'd say the E90 is a fantastic all round machine, and in my eyes cant be beat for the money. However it edges more 'GT' than sports car to me. It's fantastically balanced, the engine is strong, the chassis is supple, the steering feels connected and direct. I really like the throttle response and right foot adjust ability. With the right exhaust the sound is special for sure (I have an MPE), although never spine tingling. It feels like a driver focused package, and has the right mix of 'oldschool' BMW feel and modern tech.

On the flip side it struggles to hide its weight in transitions, the engine even at the top end never feels rabidly quick (I think the love for the S65 is a touch overblown tbh), and ultimately whilst I really love driving it is missing a certain excitement factor. For example I drove a Shelby GT350 which is laugh out loud quick and incredibly visceral, back to back with my E90 it felt very restrained and lacking drama in comparison.

I suspect what I'm looking for only takes me into Pcar territory, but the M2 Comp looks like it may be a good interim option. Does it give you the 'fizz' when you drive it, or does it feel too digital? Sounds like the steering is very good, I had no issues with the 991.1 C2S steering so if it's at that level then happy days. The e90 has great steering but it can feel a touch 'gloopy' so I'm not too bothered as long as it feels connected (i drove a 2015 F80, the steering felt very disconnected. Similarly a Mini Cooper S which is also BMW essentially). It sounds how it sounds I suppose, wont open that can of worms..

Long winded answer but really interested to know is it an all around more exciting package than the E90, enough to warrant dropping another $30k

This brings up a good point...comparing the M2C vs my E90 M3. My M3 is mostly stock; however, it does have some important improvements (in my mind) that will taint a direct comparison to the stock M2C. I have a front, solid (early style), Dinan sway bar and a rear adjustable Eibach sway bar. I have the front camber pins removed and max negative camber set (about -1.7). I also have Apex EC-7 9.5" and 10.5" x 19 wheels with 255/35 and 275/35-19 PS4S tires. Dinan exhaust. The car is a beast in transitions with this setup...much more direct and responsive than a stock one.

I'll have more in the coming days/weeks to comment on, but I would say that the M2C does not feel too digital at all. It's definitely a blast to drive it. The diff feels great on the skid pad -- actually a lot better in some aspects compared to the visco-lok M3 diff which requires that relative movement to begin locking (then of course you get lots of locking and can really lean on that outside rear tire which the M3 loves). The S55 is a beast of an engine, and of course the powerband is dramatically different than the S65, in both good ways and not so good. It's more of a blunt force instrument I guess is the best way to describe it.

When I had the M3 setup for F-street class autox, it was a beast on course (pins pulled, max neg camber; Dinan front sway bar; stock width wheels with 275/35-18 all around, RivalS and RE-71R). It has fantastic turn-in to apex action with no push, just ready to rotate on throttle at will (a lot of that is likely due to the visco-lok being almost if not fully open on typical deceleration), and the S65 torque curve is so flat, that it can really put down the power coming off elements -- where other cars just want to spin the rears, the M3 can hook up and just scat. I was always in the top 5 PAX at local events, top overall PAX a couple of times. There's a reason the E9x M3 has won F-street class 1st and other high place trophies at the Nationals the past few years.

I'll get the M2C to an autocross next month, so it should be interesting.

More to come...probably should start another thread.

Chuck

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Jenius

Thanks for sharing!

May I also ask, what is your most preferred steering mode (i.e., Comfort, Sport or Sport Plus).

I few EPS cars that I have driven in the past often left me in the comfort mode, which I thought has the best feel and agility. Sportier mode seems to make them artificially heavy. What's your thoughts on this?

I would say that this is less of an issue with the M2C. The two sport modes don't have a lot of artificial feel (to me). However, on the skidpad I used Comfort mode steering and Sport mode throttle and seemed to come back to that once I tried other settings. I think the fineness of the steering feedback might have been best felt in Comfort mode, but honestly, the other two aren't crazy bad like on some cars as you said.

[W///]

Great review! I've always been a fan of your fleet, and adding an M2C is a great addition (no need for sad face in the sig now).

The M2C is just about the only new M car that I would consider keeping long term. It feels old school, and I'm afraid it'll be the last one to do so. The problem is I just cannot bring myself to sell any of my current M's to make room for it. There would just be a little too much overlap between all these cars to add it.

Glad you're enjoying the car, looking forward to more reviews!

P.S. You've got the exact same spec I would have ordered myself

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Does it give you the 'fizz' when you drive it, or does it feel too digital?

Ok, just had the E90 M3 out today after driving the M2C almost 1300 miles in the past week. Wow, what a contrast. Interesting and fun to sample these two back to back. I'll have a more in-depth look at that sample in the future but for now just some quick observations. My E90 M3 is a 2011.5 with 38k miles on it, and presents as essentially a new car inside and out, so other than the minor mods I mentioned above, it should be a very representative sample.

Before engine start, first things I notice right away: (1) even with steering wheel all the way back, it could use another 1" rearward travel in the M3. The M2C has a lot of adjustment, so I can put the seat right where I want it for my legs-to-pedals fitment and then get the wheel close enough. (I'm 6'2"); (2) gearshift is located further away also compared to the M2C - the M2C gearshift knob placement feels great; (3) bolsters can be adjusted tighter in the M3 - both my wife and daughter complained about the adjustable bolsters not adjusting enough when they first drove the M2C.

The brake pedal to accelerator pedal relative locations are almost in the same plane in the M3. In the M2C, the brake pedal is "higher up" (closer to driver) versus the accelerator pedal location. I had already noticed that on the M2C and assumed this was part of BMW trying not to be Audi-ized by drivers screwing up pedal choice. It doesn't really hurt heel-toe rev matching in the M2C (which I've done with rev matching working and with it not, i.e. DSC off) as that is still fine with a foot angling to the accelerator pedal.

The brakes on the M2C are *very* touchy on first application. The pad choice BMW made has a very high coefficient of friction, but after a few miles you accommodate to the needed effort. The M3 on the other hand feels more "normal" to me, lol, whatever that subjective thought means.

The M3 throttle response is sharper, especially on light to moderate openings (throttle mapping set to "normal" mode).

M3 steering feels heavier slightly, and you can feel the larger overall car size; it doesn't feel quite as sharp on turn-in even with the mods I mentioned prior.

The M3 feels more raw/mechanical, especially on hard cornering and rolling into the throttle off an apex, so perhaps in that aspect some might refer to the M2C feeling more digital in nature perhaps. The S65 is a much smoother responding engine whereas the S55 needs some additional learning on my part of "beast management." I need more serious seat time in the M2C since I've had the M3 for six years and know it inside out.

As the M2C now has 1300 miles on it, and 1200 mile service is done, etc, I tried a few acceleration runs today. Here's my biggest complaint about the M2C so far: serious, as in major DME power output management during rapid acceleration upshifts. Remember this is a 6MT car. At first I thought it was DSC kicking in which wouldn't be surprising given the output of this engine. However, I disabled it fully, and it still has major power lag on an upshift.

I've driven powerful RWD cars since the 1970s, so it's something I've very familiar with -- managing those upshifts, especially the 1-2 upshift, during max acceleration attempts. I'm *not* talking about powershifting the car as I don't abuse drivetrains, but I'm simply referring to a good row up through the gears from a stop. In my E39 M5, for example accelerating wide open to 7k in 1st, then 1-2 upshift, and if you weren't careful, the spinning tires in 2nd could be an issue. If the pavement was cool or the tires a bit aged, it would leave 20+ feet of rubber on that shift. Similarly, the E90 M3 will bark the tires loudly on a similar 1-2 upshift with a strong firm response from the S65 into that next gear.

The M2C? Huge lag feeling for a split second on each new upshifted gear when you're trying to get maximum acceleration. It sounds and feels awful (to me). It is apparently engine torque output management to: (a) protect the drivertrain; (b) protect an idiot behind the wheel; (c) both?

Regards,
Chuck

[chris719]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Ok, just had the E90 M3 out today after driving the M2C almost 1300 miles in the past week. Wow, what a contrast. Interesting and fun to sample these two back to back. I'll have a more in-depth look at that sample in the future but for now just some quick observations. My E90 M3 is a 2011.5 with 38k miles on it, and presents as essentially a new car inside and out, so other than the minor mods I mentioned above, it should be a very representative sample.

Before engine start, first things I notice right away: (1) even with steering wheel all the way back, it could use another 1" rearward travel in the M3. The M2C has a lot of adjustment, so I can put the seat right where I want it for my legs-to-pedals fitment and then get the wheel close enough. (I'm 6'2"); (2) gearshift is located further away also compared to the M2C - the M2C gearshift knob placement feels great; (3) bolsters can be adjusted tighter in the M3 - both my wife and daughter complained about the adjustable bolsters not adjusting enough when they first drove the M2C.

The brake pedal to accelerator pedal relative locations are almost in the same plane in the M3. In the M2C, the brake pedal is "higher up" (closer to driver) versus the accelerator pedal location. I had already noticed that on the M2C and assumed this was part of BMW trying not to be Audi-ized by drivers screwing up pedal choice. It doesn't really hurt heel-toe rev matching in the M2C (which I've done with rev matching working and with it not, i.e. DSC off) as that is still fine with a foot angling to the accelerator pedal.

The brakes on the M2C are *very* touchy on first application. The pad choice BMW made has a very high coefficient of friction, but after a few miles you accommodate to the needed effort. The M3 on the other hand feels more "normal" to me, lol, whatever that subjective thought means.

The M3 throttle response is sharper, especially on light to moderate openings (throttle mapping set to "normal" mode).

M3 steering feels heavier slightly, and you can feel the larger overall car size; it doesn't feel quite as sharp on turn-in even with the mods I mentioned prior.

The M3 feels more raw/mechanical, especially on hard cornering and rolling into the throttle off an apex, so perhaps in that aspect some might refer to the M2C feeling more digital in nature perhaps. The S65 is a much smoother responding engine whereas the S55 needs some additional learning on my part of "beast management." I need more serious seat time in the M2C since I've had the M3 for six years and know it inside out.

As the M2C now has 1300 miles on it, and 1200 mile service is done, etc, I tried a few acceleration runs today. Here's my biggest complaint about the M2C so far: serious, as in major DME power output management during rapid acceleration upshifts. Remember this is a 6MT car. At first I thought it was DSC kicking in which wouldn't be surprising given the output of this engine. However, I disabled it fully, and it still has major power lag on an upshift.

I've driven powerful RWD cars since the 1970s, so it's something I've very familiar with -- managing those upshifts, especially the 1-2 upshift, during max acceleration attempts. I'm *not* talking about powershifting the car as I don't abuse drivetrains, but I'm simply referring to a good row up through the gears from a stop. In my E39 M5, for example accelerating wide open to 7k in 1st, then 1-2 upshift, and if you weren't careful, the spinning tires in 2nd could be an issue. If the pavement was cool or the tires a bit aged, it would leave 20+ feet of rubber on that shift. Similarly, the E90 M3 will bark the tires loudly on a similar 1-2 upshift with a strong firm response from the S65 into that next gear.

The M2C? Huge lag feeling for a split second on each new upshifted gear when you're trying to get maximum acceleration. It sounds and feels awful (to me). It is apparently engine torque output management to: (a) protect the drivertrain; (b) protect an idiot behind the wheel; (c) both?

Regards,
Chuck

I heard this post-shift lag exists in the OG M2 and M3/M4 also. Is there a way to defeat that torque management with a tune maybe? I don't know that I've heard anyone has gotten it to go away.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

The M2C? Huge lag feeling for a split second on each new upshifted gear when you're trying to get maximum acceleration. It sounds and feels awful (to me). It is apparently engine torque output management to: (a) protect the drivertrain; (b) protect an idiot behind the wheel; (c) both?

Regards,
Chuck

25% a, 75% b.

Think of it as ambience.

It's like vinyl records. Requires more effort, slower, less efficient. Yet, despite all this, there is something joyful and rewarding about the time it takes and the actions required.

Some people will not listen to their music on anything else and it's an "enthusiastic" sub culture that keep the medium alive.

Striking parallel to a manual gearbox in 2018. You would never buy one if performance or control was your key criteria. But, yes, there is an ambience about it.

I still have a record player at home. Haven't used it for over 10 years though.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Ok, just had the E90 M3 out today after driving the M2C almost 1300 miles in the past week. Wow, what a contrast. Interesting and fun to sample these two back to back. I'll have a more in-depth look at that sample in the future but for now just some quick observations. My E90 M3 is a 2011.5 with 38k miles on it, and presents as essentially a new car inside and out, so other than the minor mods I mentioned above, it should be a very representative sample.

Before engine start, first things I notice right away: (1) even with steering wheel all the way back, it could use another 1" rearward travel in the M3. The M2C has a lot of adjustment, so I can put the seat right where I want it for my legs-to-pedals fitment and then get the wheel close enough. (I'm 6'2"); (2) gearshift is located further away also compared to the M2C - the M2C gearshift knob placement feels great; (3) bolsters can be adjusted tighter in the M3 - both my wife and daughter complained about the adjustable bolsters not adjusting enough when they first drove the M2C.

The brake pedal to accelerator pedal relative locations are almost in the same plane in the M3. In the M2C, the brake pedal is "higher up" (closer to driver) versus the accelerator pedal location. I had already noticed that on the M2C and assumed this was part of BMW trying not to be Audi-ized by drivers screwing up pedal choice. It doesn't really hurt heel-toe rev matching in the M2C (which I've done with rev matching working and with it not, i.e. DSC off) as that is still fine with a foot angling to the accelerator pedal.

The brakes on the M2C are *very* touchy on first application. The pad choice BMW made has a very high coefficient of friction, but after a few miles you accommodate to the needed effort. The M3 on the other hand feels more "normal" to me, lol, whatever that subjective thought means.

The M3 throttle response is sharper, especially on light to moderate openings (throttle mapping set to "normal" mode).

M3 steering feels heavier slightly, and you can feel the larger overall car size; it doesn't feel quite as sharp on turn-in even with the mods I mentioned prior.

The M3 feels more raw/mechanical, especially on hard cornering and rolling into the throttle off an apex, so perhaps in that aspect some might refer to the M2C feeling more digital in nature perhaps. The S65 is a much smoother responding engine whereas the S55 needs some additional learning on my part of "beast management." I need more serious seat time in the M2C since I've had the M3 for six years and know it inside out.

As the M2C now has 1300 miles on it, and 1200 mile service is done, etc, I tried a few acceleration runs today. Here's my biggest complaint about the M2C so far: serious, as in major DME power output management during rapid acceleration upshifts. Remember this is a 6MT car. At first I thought it was DSC kicking in which wouldn't be surprising given the output of this engine. However, I disabled it fully, and it still has major power lag on an upshift.

I've driven powerful RWD cars since the 1970s, so it's something I've very familiar with -- managing those upshifts, especially the 1-2 upshift, during max acceleration attempts. I'm *not* talking about powershifting the car as I don't abuse drivetrains, but I'm simply referring to a good row up through the gears from a stop. In my E39 M5, for example accelerating wide open to 7k in 1st, then 1-2 upshift, and if you weren't careful, the spinning tires in 2nd could be an issue. If the pavement was cool or the tires a bit aged, it would leave 20+ feet of rubber on that shift. Similarly, the E90 M3 will bark the tires loudly on a similar 1-2 upshift with a strong firm response from the S65 into that next gear.

The M2C? Huge lag feeling for a split second on each new upshifted gear when you're trying to get maximum acceleration. It sounds and feels awful (to me). It is apparently engine torque output management to: (a) protect the drivertrain; (b) protect an idiot behind the wheel; (c) both?

Regards,
Chuck

Great stuff, thanks for posting. Telling that the M3 feels more mechanical on a rolling throttle out of turns. Does sound like the M2C is an exciting machine, watched a review yesterday where the exhaust sounded great too.

On the gearing do you notice much rev hang? I find modern turbo cars where revs hang when you change gears really irritating. I had a rental Golf a few weeks ago with a small petrol turbo engine, it made fast upshifts really un-satisfying.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Davil

25% a, 75% b.

Think of it as ambience.

It's like vinyl records. Requires more effort, slower, less efficient. Yet, despite all this, there is something joyful and rewarding about the time it takes and the actions required.

Some people will not listen to their music on anything else and it's an "enthusiastic" sub culture that keep the medium alive.

Striking parallel to a manual gearbox in 2018. You would never buy one if performance or control was your key criteria. But, yes, there is an ambience about it.

I still have a record player at home. Haven't used it for over 10 years though.

Interesting take on it. I'm not sure I can adapt to that interpretation though. When I feel like I can't "drive the real car", it is disappointing, especially when comparing directly to other cars I own now.

Speaking of vinyl...a couple of years ago I set up a 3-way comparison of Yes Fragile album (Roundabout track): (1) my original album I bought in the early 1970s playing on my still working JVC direct drive turntable, circa 1977, with a still working high-end Empire cartridge; (2) CD player playing the high resolution digital remix of the original tracks which came with the 2015 Blu-Ray release; (3) iPhone playing an iTunes converted/compressed capture of #2.

I was able to start the record playing and line up the start of the other two right on one specific note, and then using the tape monitor input plus the phono input and CD input on my receiver, switch between the three. Wow, what a difference. The album was awesome with deep tonal quality even after all these years including surviving college in the late 70s; it was full of hiss, cracks, and junk of course too. The CD remix was amazing; didn't have that rich tonal vinyl quality, but the clarity was just astounding. The iTunes captured/compressed version sounded like junk compared to the other two.

I realize none of the above it news...just a fun first hand comparison for me though. Speaking of which I recently pulled out of storage my first turntable from 1970, a Garrad SL-72B, and it still works almost 50 years later.