[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

Why? Would it produce more power? Would it have more torque? Would it have less weight? With the modern engines, the answers are 'no', 'no', and 'no'. What is left there that would trump these three things?

I don't think you are understanding my point. You were discussing technical advancements and the lack of V8's and V12's, etc. If BMW could develop a NA engine that could rev to the moon, with high output and be lightweight (and efficient) it would be a technical advancement. I think FI is a relatively cheap, old fashioned way to up HP and torque, and game the enviro regs.

Sorry, I did not answer your questions, and if you could produce the same levels of power with NA that you do with FI, then yes, it is most likely a more advanced engine and would weigh less, probably sound better and have better throttle response.

[Hazey82]

So you got the new M2 huh? Yep she's a beast.
Wait...Doesn't it have the same engine as an X4? Umm yeah but it handles much much better...

Some of you guys are in such denial. I want this M2 trust me but when you see bullshit you got to call it. And so many come to its defence.
Talk about 1M all you like but I chose my E46 M3 over it and it will have more soul and character then that car will ever have I don't care how limited the 1M is.

And it seems BMW are throwing M badges all over the place on cars now. Kind of dilutes the true M brand if you ask me.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by fuddman

They sound better.

That's what ASD is for.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by fuddman

They sound better.

Akrapovič can do interesting stuff to enhance aural joy.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Iron Man

If BMW could develop a NA engine that could rev to the moon, with high output and be lightweight (and efficient) it would be a technical advancement.

"Could" is the operating word here.

Feel free to provide examples of the above that were realized in the BMW-appropriate $50K-$100K price range.

[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

"Could" is the operating word here.

Feel free to provide examples of the above that were realized in the BMW-appropriate $50K-$100K price range.

Well that is a moot point. BMW has already chosen their path at this point and this discussion has become somewhat circular.

[Hazey82]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Akrapovič can do interesting stuff to enhance aural joy.

You shouldn't have to. If you buy a true M car you expect it to sound great from the factory. We got guys here spending 8k on MPE to improve the sound on brand spanking new 160K M3's. Such a joke

Listen to the X5/X6M rev and when this sound better than your M3/M4 you know BMW have dropped the ball!

[M2BMW]

Originally Posted by Iron Man

Well that is a moot point. BMW has already chosen their path at this point and this discussion has become somewhat circular.

What has happened is that some people on this forum have voiced their opinion about what an M car should be and have presented it as fact. The problem is that BMW's M brand is based on core principals but the implementation has changed through the years.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Hazey82

You shouldn't have to. If you buy a true M car you expect it to sound great from the factory. We got guys here spending 8k on MPE to improve the sound on brand spanking new 160K M3's. Such a joke
Listen to the X5/X6M rev and when this sound better than your M3/M4 you know BMW have dropped the ball!

Alike other car manufacturers, BMW has to observe legislation regarding sound and emission. Failure to do so, the car gets black flagged by the authorities. And more strict legislation causes regional differences in supply: no need to remind that some sportier car models never make it stateside simply because the manufacturer prefers not to spend too much time and money on changing certain aspects of the car, only to comply with the US law and regs. If it's just a set of extra blinkers, TPMS, warning signs, etc., fair enough. But for something more structural, they often call it a day.

Aftermarket exhaust manufacturers have - how would I phrase it - more flexibility. Of course the sound and emission laws and regs are the same, but those manufacturers often [cough] expect [cough] the customer to only use the exhaust on a race track. Or, more subtle, the exhaust is street legal subject to the condition that you keep the butterfly valve closed.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by Hazey82

So you got the new M2 huh? Yep she's a beast.
Wait...Doesn't it have the same engine as an X4? Umm yeah but it handles much much better...

Some of you guys are in such denial. I want this M2 trust me but when you see bullshit you got to call it. And so many come to its defence.
Talk about 1M all you like but I chose my E46 M3 over it and it will have more soul and character then that car will ever have I don't care how limited the 1M is.

And it seems BMW are throwing M badges all over the place on cars now. Kind of dilutes the true M brand if you ask me.

So you drove the 1M for a good amount of time before coming up with that opinion right?

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally Posted by Hazey82

So you got the new M2 huh? Yep she's a beast.
Wait...Doesn't it have the same engine as an X4? Umm yeah but it handles much much better...

Some of you guys are in such denial. I want this M2 trust me but when you see bullshit you got to call it. And so many come to its defence.
Talk about 1M all you like but I chose my E46 M3 over it and it will have more soul and character then that car will ever have I don't care how limited the 1M is.

And it seems BMW are throwing M badges all over the place on cars now. Kind of dilutes the true M brand if you ask me.

I had 2 e46 M3s and am currently driving my 6th M car. Out of all of them, the 1M was unquestionably the most rewarding and fun driving experience of any of them, which had absolutely nothing to do with its limited production run. I drove the e46s for about 4 years and my 1M for 3 years. I am baffled as to how you could come to the conclusion you have, so I will just respectfully disagree, I suppose. I have very high hopes and expectations that the M2 will be better still than my prior beloved 1M.

[bobloblaw]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Do some of you get a 2010/2011 déjà-vu feeling upon reading some comments over here ?

Just to play devil's advocate, I think the fact that we're getting so much deja vu is the problem.

First off, I'm sure the M2 will be a ton of fun to drive. If you slap M3/4 parts on a smaller car, it will be fun. That being said, BMW had like 4 years to develop this car. And from what we know, the end result will be the same as the 1M (with next-gen parts) which BMW admitted they essentially threw together in a really short period of time: Massaged N5x engine, wider body, M3 bits.

When they said they were going to capture the spirit of the 1M, everyone was excited and rightfully so. However, I interpreted that as light, fun, tossable, etc etc. I didn't think it would mean "same thing as the 1M down to the limited color/interior, N5x engine, etc etc." I'm not asking for carbon fiber everything and soft-closed doors and yadda yadda yadda that people fire back with sarcastically. It just seems kind of unnecessary that BMW would limit the choices for the car.

And so, I know this car will be a lot of fun and win comparisons and all that. It's just that I know that BMW is capable of so much more. I know they can't make the car better than the M3/4, but it just seems a bit lazy that the M2 is just going to be a next-gen 1M down to seemingly every detail. Obviously if these decisions leads to a very low MSRP, it will seem worth it to some people (including me probably), but I'd still like to see what the M division can do with a small M car that has its own distinct personality.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

Just to play devil's advocate, I think the fact that we're getting so much deja vu is the problem.
First off, I'm sure the M2 will be a ton of fun to drive. If you slap M3/4 parts on a smaller car, it will be fun. That being said, BMW had like 4 years to develop this car. And from what we know, the end result will be the same as the 1M (with next-gen parts) which BMW admitted they essentially threw together in a really short period of time: Massaged N5x engine, wider body, M3 bits.
When they said they were going to capture the spirit of the 1M, everyone was excited and rightfully so. However, I interpreted that as light, fun, tossable, etc etc. I didn't think it would mean "same thing as the 1M down to the limited color/interior, N5x engine, etc etc." I'm not asking for carbon fiber everything and soft-closed doors and yadda yadda yadda that people fire back with sarcastically. It just seems kind of unnecessary that BMW would limit the choices for the car.
And so, I know this car will be a lot of fun and win comparisons and all that. It's just that I know that BMW is capable of so much more. I know they can't make the car better than the M3/4, but it just seems a bit lazy that the M2 is just going to be a next-gen 1M down to seemingly every detail. Obviously if these decisions leads to a very low MSRP, it will seem worth it to some people (including me probably), but I'd still like to see what the M division can do with a small M car that has its own distinct personality.

Point taken.

• The M2 base will be more street focused than track focused;
• The M2 CSL will be more track focused than street focused.

Kind of a dog/wolf relationship between those two: share the same DNA, but the M2 base will be the domesticated wolf (with a bit more weight), not living inside the woods.

[Hazey82]

This was just my opinion and in no way bashed the 1M or said it was not a great enthusiast, fun driving car. I also know it would leave my e46 for dead. . We all have different interpretations and ideas on what makes a sports car or M car. For me an important ingredient is its engine. To me that's what gives s car it's soul or character. It's not because it has an M3 diff and brakes and good chassis. And I'm not suggesting these are not required items. They sure are.
Pretty simple I think

I'm pretty sure I may end up with an M2 but looking like it's going to come down to pricing for me to see if I'm getting the value. I just hoped for a bit more

If reveal is 14 Oct. Anyone know when journalists or anyone gets access to the car and report on it?

[John_01]

Normally modern turbo engines are designed with peak torque at low rpm. They use very small turbos and intercooler size that is barely adequate. The idea is they build impressive torque very quickly in the mid range. It makes the car feel impressively powerful when sprinting around suburban roads. The trouble is that its not so good when you drive the car on a circuit, where you aren't so interested in the midrange torque, but need to extract the absolute maximum power output. The engine such as a stock N55 is limited at high RPM. As you run through the gears, the stock intercooler will suffer heatsoak and have major power loss above 5,500 rpm in the case of the stock N55. I believe BMW can quite easily revise the specs to get more top end power if they want to. It could be as simple as changing to a slightly bigger turbo and a more generously sized intercooler. I think BMW need to do this to provide a M2 engine worthy of track use and the M logo.

[bobloblaw]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Point taken.

• The M2 base will be more street focused than track focused;
• The M2 CSL will be more track focused than street focused.

Kind of a dog/wolf relationship between those two: share the same DNA, but the M2 base will be the domesticated wolf (with a bit more weight), not living inside the woods.

Right. But we don't know the the CSL is coming to the US and if it does, it will probably be 2x the price of the M2. I just hope the M2 has its own distinct personality, and not just "It drives like an M3/4 if it were smaller, had less power, and weighed 50 pounds less."

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Hazey82

Talk about 1M all you like but I chose my E46 M3 over it and it will have more soul and character then that car will ever have I don't care how limited the 1M is.

Everyone is entitled to his opinion. I respect your point of view and preference.

I can compare those cars: I liked my E46 M3 manual, I liked my E46 M3 SMGII, but the 1M is a league of its own in the fun department. And I have high hopes that the M2 will be a worthy successor. Even more, I trust that it will.

[Hazey82]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Everyone is entitled to his opinion. I respect your point of view and preference. I can compare those car: I liked my E46 manual, I liked my E46 SMGII, but the 1M is a league of its own in the fun department. And I have high hopes that the M2 will be a worthy successor. Even more, I trust that it will.

Like I said soul and character is not what makes a car fun. No doubts the 1M is.
Sure most have seen this but hopefully this brings my point across.

The latest vids of the M2 with new exhaust tuning has my attention so fingers crossed.

Anyway

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Hazey82

So you got the new M2 huh? Yep she's a beast.
Wait...Doesn't it have the same engine as an X4? Umm yeah but it handles much much better...

Some of you guys are in such denial. I want this M2 trust me but when you see bullshit you got to call it. And so many come to its defence.
Talk about 1M all you like but I chose my E46 M3 over it and it will have more soul and character then that car will ever have I don't care how limited the 1M is.

And it seems BMW are throwing M badges all over the place on cars now. Kind of dilutes the true M brand if you ask me.

If there is anyone here that is in denial... it is you.
If the general public felt that the E46 M3 in standard version was as good as the 1M... the prices for each on the open market would certainly reflect it. It appears that you are defending your beloved E46 M3 by tearing down the two closest threats to it.. The 1M.. and now the M2. Neither will have the beloved S motor designation. Neither the 1M nor the M2 will have a CF roof... but neither did the E46M3 either..

I haven't personally had anyone ask me about the N54 in my 1M being in the 135 or the Z435is.. and why should they... if the motor is in all three cars.. it's not too hard to figure out which vehicle is the overall best performer. I'm sure that all the people that have cashed in on selling their 1Ms at prices over the original MSRP were simply doing so because the motor wasn't a real M motor..

If you prefer the E46 M3 over the 1M and M2.. that's certainly your opinion, you are welcome to it.. but don't be fooled into thinking that every other Bimwad out there agrees with you.

If the M2 is such a disappointment for you.. There is of course... the M4... you know you want an S55..

[bobloblaw]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

If the M2 is such a disappointment for you.. There is of course... the M4... you know you want an S55..

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

Just to play devil's advocate, I think the fact that we're getting so much deja vu is the problem.

First off, I'm sure the M2 will be a ton of fun to drive. If you slap M3/4 parts on a smaller car, it will be fun. That being said, BMW had like 4 years to develop this car. And from what we know, the end result will be the same as the 1M (with next-gen parts) which BMW admitted they essentially threw together in a really short period of time: Massaged N5x engine, wider body, M3 bits.

When they said they were going to capture the spirit of the 1M, everyone was excited and rightfully so. However, I interpreted that as light, fun, tossable, etc etc. I didn't think it would mean "same thing as the 1M down to the limited color/interior, N5x engine, etc etc." I'm not asking for carbon fiber everything and soft-closed doors and yadda yadda yadda that people fire back with sarcastically. It just seems kind of unnecessary that BMW would limit the choices for the car.

And so, I know this car will be a lot of fun and win comparisons and all that. It's just that I know that BMW is capable of so much more. I know they can't make the car better than the M3/4, but it just seems a bit lazy that the M2 is just going to be a next-gen 1M down to seemingly every detail. Obviously if these decisions leads to a very low MSRP, it will seem worth it to some people (including me probably), but I'd still like to see what the M division can do with a small M car that has its own distinct personality.

your entire argument is trumped by the original. 1M. It was brilliant.. Can't you simply accept the " rushed to market in such a short time" as marketing speak? a way for BMW to hedge it's bets in the event the 1M fell flat.,... (welll.. we didnt really put forth our best effort).... I guess you bought that hook line and sinker?? And so now.. you expect them to find lighting in a bottle a second time... and you expect them to make it better than the 1M... and now that BMW AG has used the formula as they did to make the original brilliant item...the 1M... in making the M2... you are already disappointed in the result.... and before it has even come to market...

And you want " so much more"... you want " NEW ENERGY" from the M division...
Sounds to me like you want..

more CF....
bolder styling..
perhaps a more exciting motor..
perhaps some wilder colors..
more weight savings..

Sure sounds to me like there already are hints at what you want....M2 CSL...

[Hazey82]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

If there is anyone here that is in denial... it is you.
If the general public felt that the E46 M3 in standard version was as good as the 1M... the prices for each on the open market would certainly reflect it. It appears that you are defending your beloved E46 M3 by tearing down the two closest threats to it.. The 1M.. and now the M2. Neither will have the beloved S motor designation. Neither the 1M nor the M2 will have a CF roof... but neither did the E46M3 either..

I haven't personally had anyone ask me about the N54 in my 1M being in the 135 or the Z435is.. and why should they... if the motor is in all three cars.. it's not too hard to figure out which vehicle is the overall best performer. I'm sure that all the people that have cashed in on selling their 1Ms at prices over the original MSRP were simply doing so because the motor wasn't a real M motor..

If the M2 is such a disappointment for you.. There is of course... the M4... you know you want an S55..

This is too funny.
Maybe it's a yank thing but we just don't see this down under. There are currently 15 1Ms listed here for sale ranging from 70k to 90k and it was 110k brand new. Whoever is buying 1Ms there for over original msrp is just an idiot especially when M2 is around the corner

E46 M3s and even manual E92 here are starting to hold there value now and I can even see them going up with time. Total opposite of the 1M here.
Don't make out like I'm saying E46 is better than 1M or M2 because I'm not and to a degree it isn't. You all totally missing my point I'm talking about the engine that's it! Sheesh