09-20-2019, 05:16 AM | #89 | ||
Enlisted Member
32
Rep 49
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
-7.5 kg for the bonnet -4 kg the roof -21.7 kg for the CCB kit etc up to -43 kg lighter than the Competition. So, I guess the wheels save up to 9 kg. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 05:18 AM | #90 | ||
Major General
1718
Rep 5,110
Posts |
Quote:
As I quoted in my first post on this thread; The article clearly states that the 2.1 sec difference is significant, even without considering the favourable conditions the M2 C lap was set in. I'm not sure why so many seem to skip that piece of information, which comes directly from the people testing the cars and that are familiar with the track conditions... : |
||
Appreciate
1
Throttleblip422.50 |
09-20-2019, 05:30 AM | #91 |
Enlisted Member
32
Rep 49
Posts |
Regarding the price, it looks like 30% more for the base CS, without optional CCB (~9000€), DKG (~3000€), etc.
Noise: better than Competition, especially inside, but not loud/good enough from outside. Lap time difference: M2C had the advantage of low temperature, while M2CS had better tirs (Cup2 vs PSS). I would say, with identical temperatures and tires, the 2 seconds will stay the same. Conclusion:A good step in the right direction, but not big enough to clearly differentiate it from he competition. And it recommends the manual transmission, to enjoy it while it lasts. DKG is quicker though. |
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 05:35 AM | #92 |
Enlisted Member
32
Rep 49
Posts |
Actually, from the article: M2CS has one problem - the M2C. Even if the 2.1s seems significant at first glance, it isn't. The only things that produce this time difference are the extra PS and the stickier tires.
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 05:47 AM | #93 | |
General
21121
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
But it is also how all elements work in unison. For instance, the M2cs suspension is tuned to better take advantage of the extra grip provided by the PSC2 which gives it an advantage over an M2C shod with the same PSC2. The aero further enhances the extra grip from the tires. The extra power allows it to sustain the acceleration rate despite higher corner exit speeds. This is what I was alluding to when I said I am well over 2 seconds quicker with my M4cs than with my previous M4 ON THE SAME TIRES. My M4cs is able to better leverage the grippier R-comp tires. It's not only about the tires, it's how the car is setup to take full advantage of the tires. Further, over a single flying lap, there is not that much difference between a PSS and PSC2. The PSC2 will shine over an entire session where the PSS will eventually become greasy and fall off significantly In the end, it is difficult to really compare the lap times in the OP due the different conditions.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-20-2019 at 08:33 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
1
SeanWRT3179.00 |
09-20-2019, 05:58 AM | #94 | |
General
21121
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
From personal experience, my fastest laps are always achieved on very cool days. On hot days (read 32deg C), the tires quickly become greassy and struggle to grip and the engine response is much more sluggish. On a cold day, the first lap feels like you're driving on ice, but as soon as you get a little heat in the tires, they grip solidly. I've achieved my personal best lap on a 10deg C day 2 weeks ago, which is 2 seconds faster than best I could achieve during peek summer in 30+dec C weather. Comparing my data logs, my cornering speeds are much higher on cold days than hot days but my top speed in only altered by a couple of km/h, which tells me tires greatly benefit from the cooler temps.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-20-2019 at 06:03 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
1
Phil-on-Cars27.00 |
09-20-2019, 06:01 AM | #95 | |
General
21121
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
I tend to agree with what is said in the article. From personal experience, I am much quicker on very cool days compared to very hot days, and it's not only because of the power.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black |
|
Appreciate
1
Phil-on-Cars27.00 |
09-20-2019, 06:22 AM | #96 | ||
General
21121
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
Quote:
First of, very little lap time can be gained from braking alone. Fast laps is about maximizing average speed throughout the entire course and proportionally, very little time/distance is spent braking. It has been demonstrated in independent tests that there is very little to no braking distance improvement achieved with CCB relative to iron rotors with stock pads, even on repeated stops. The CCB will be able to take more abuse over the course of an entire session before showing signs of fade but this will not be apparent over one or two flying laps. The reduced unsprung weight is probably the only meaningfull benefit of the CCB, but it's hard to tell how much it's worth in terms of lap times. Regarding the performance of the stock pads, they perform impressively well on track. I had one incident where the pad material sheared off on one of my front track pads and I did not have a spare set with me. So I had to install back the stock pads to finish the day. Looking at my lap times, I was only a couple of tenths off my best lap. The caveat: I melted through a set of brand new stock pads in less than a track day. It is also crtical to be very diligent with proper brake management with the stock pads to avoid uneven pad deposit and ensuing brake shudder. This is why it is much preferable to switch to proper track pads. Magnetorheological dampers also have their drawbacks and I wouldn't say they are necessarily better than the valved ones (our RS3 is equipped with magnetorheological dampers). Each have their pros and cons. I agree that the CS in general are massively overpriced from an MSRP standpoint and this is particularly the case in the USA. Like I said many times, the CS are not intended for everyone, but with the big discounts offered, the "out the door" premium is more than worth for those that it appeals to.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-20-2019 at 08:36 AM.. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 06:25 AM | #97 |
Banned
581
Rep 1,170
Posts
Drives: M2 Competition, E30 M3 DTM
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country where the taxes are too high!!
|
An M2 CS is almost as big as an E92 M3. It sure is as heavy and has the same price.
They had gold in there hands with the smaller nimbler 1M Coupe priced at 51.000 euro in germany. At 340hp it was one of best fun cars to drive around. No electronic rear diff. An anolog car priced good. If i could buy a new 1m coupe off factory i sell my m2 instantly! Why was BMW M so popular because for a lot less money you could almost keep up with porsche s. Now they charge you porsche money and you still can t keep up with porsches. Bmw must know it s place in the market fast and nimble cars for sensible money. If they charge porsche money it s has no sense to buy them. It s better to walk straight to the porsche dealer! |
Appreciate
10
scrammer421.50 ChiTownM1065.00 Robin_NL8723.00 dmboone254972.00 chris7197342.50 Phil-on-Cars27.00 M3 Adjuster7909.00 Smiley1175283.00 ORG52.50 10"4979.50 |
09-20-2019, 06:33 AM | #98 | |
Moderator
29596
Rep 13,130
Posts |
Quote:
And there is "cold" and "cool": 1°C/34°F = cold flirting with freeze point (environment & winds); 10°C/50°F is cool.
__________________
///M is art ↔ Artemis
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 06:43 AM | #99 | |
Moderator
29596
Rep 13,130
Posts |
Quote:
And it's "circa". Surfaced quotes all range between 90K and 95K (i.e. 45.40% to 53.47% extra | roughly 2 M2 CS for the price of 3 M2C). On the side of the data sheet, M2 CS prices are indicated of M-CCB (€7900) and M-DCT (€3900). Hence, the circa €102.000 indicated for base price + M-CCB + M-DCT.
__________________
///M is art ↔ Artemis
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 06:45 AM | #100 | |
General
21121
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
But on a track, you can put sufficient heat into them to get very decent grip, even in 1deg C "cold" weather. I know from experience. Look at the lap chart in the OP, the M2C was able match the same g forces as the M2cs in some curves. If the M2C was at such a disadvantage, that would simply not be possible.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-20-2019 at 07:54 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 06:53 AM | #101 |
Brigadier General
3663
Rep 3,422
Posts |
Both cars logged 1.5 seconds to 40 kph, look at the slalom data and C lap time. There's nothing to suggest that the PSS were not working well. Ask anyone who's driven summer tires in freezing temps -- when they're "off" they're really off. You're hoping to make the stop sign, not collecting acceleration and slalom data. Sport Auto wouldn't have tested the C if the tires weren't functional.
Some of the contributors here haven't spent a full day at the track, or tracked in wide-ranging conditions... In mid-summer, the difference between morning and afternoon sessions is regularly 20 - 30 F. Provided you get the car/tires dialed in during the a.m. hours, you cannot hope to match morning lap times once temps are in the upper 80's and 90's in the afternoon. The difference between PSS/PS4S and (Star Spec) PSC2 over one hot lap is maybe 1 second, perhaps less. Some of you guys are vastly overestimating BMW's version of the Cup 2. It's street-friendly, good wear, not in the same neighborhood as the R (https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...+Sport+Cup+2+R). The difference is not like previous gen tire upgrades, e.g., Pilot Sport PS2 to Nitto NT01. The difference between 90 degrees and 30's is at least 1-2 seconds a lap.
__________________
M4 GTS, GT3, C63 S | E90 M3s, E39 M5
Last edited by FormulaMMM; 09-20-2019 at 07:01 AM.. Reason: Star Spec PSC2 |
09-20-2019, 08:18 AM | #102 |
General
21121
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Are you sure it is that much ? I figure closer to 8~10kg for the 788M to 763M.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black |
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 08:26 AM | #104 |
General
21121
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
The article says 3.4kg, but I find that number a bit low based on published wheel weights.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black |
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 09:10 AM | #105 |
Lieutenant
285
Rep 546
Posts |
I may go for it as a keeper just to have an MT CS. Otherwise I'll just keep my MT M4 comp. The 4 concept is growing on me a bit but not enough to ever consider buying it.
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 09:15 AM | #106 | ||
Lieutenant Colonel
1996
Rep 1,759
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Compare this run with a previous run from 2018 when track temp was 45 degrees Celsius. That run recorded higher speeds in 4 out of 5 corners. https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...ion-supertest/ Corners Air/Track 1/1 Degree Air/Track 30/45 Degrees EINGANG M 125 km/h 126 km/h SACHSKURVE 81 km/h 79 km/h SENKE 94 km/h 97 km/h SUDKURVE 106 km/h 109 km/h NORDKURVE 132 km/h 135 km/h It is quite obvious the 1 degree Celsius track temperature (+ wind, humidity or other conditions on the day) has a more detrimental effect on the PSS than the summer climate conditions. |
||
Appreciate
1
Robin_NL8723.00 |
09-20-2019, 09:19 AM | #107 |
Private First Class
58
Rep 110
Posts |
The delta in lap time to the M2C isn't overly impressive but the weather/tires certainly play a big role in that. I'd love to see a magazine put the same tires on both cars and run them back to back.
Overall the lap time puts the M2CS in pretty impressive company. I don't know if I'd trade in my original M2 but I do love the seats, carbon fiber and overall package. Mike |
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 09:24 AM | #108 | |
S0THPAW
8723
Rep 7,847
Posts |
Quote:
-It's not a short track, it's just the GP layout. -There were no favourable conditions for M2C, 1 degrees Celsius asphalt temperature is very unfavourable for the PSS tyres. Tell me about it. Been there done that with M2C..... Gerhardt also stated(last sentence) more or less: the difference between M2 Comp and CS should have been a bit more than what we have now. Cheers Robin |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 09:44 AM | #109 |
S0THPAW
8723
Rep 7,847
Posts |
Just two things which I really find strange concerning favourable conditions M2Comp vs so called not so ideal conditions for M2CS.....
Parabolika CS: 248kmh speedtrap( 154mph) Comp: 232kmh speedtrap (144mph) 10mph topspeed difference! And Senke turn CS: 99kmh(61.5mph) 1.2G Comp: 94kmh(58.5mph) 1.15G That's some pretty big difference, still M2 Comp manages to be just 2.1s slower. Where are the favourable conditions for M2 Comp/PSS in 1 degrees Celsius asphalt and outside temperature? Just put M2 Comp on Cup tyres and give it a nice tune and there you go.;-) Cheers Robin |
Appreciate
0
|
09-20-2019, 10:10 AM | #110 | ||
Brigadier General
3663
Rep 3,422
Posts |
Quote:
Note that I'm not saying the PSS are at their best at 34 degrees, but the engine is loving it. The M2 CS is absolutely disadvantaged at 90 degrees. It is not putting down its best lap time at that temp. Not debatable. Quote:
Your data makes the point, actually -- There was a 10 mph difference in trap speed into parabolika, with a nearly 60 degree temperature difference. How fast is the CS in that speed trap -60 degrees? Comp with PSS is -3 mph through Senke turn. They managed to get that close, and match or be within 3 kph through a variety of other turns with the tires iced over? Ok.
__________________
M4 GTS, GT3, C63 S | E90 M3s, E39 M5
|
||
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|