[Spydert]

https://www.evo.co.uk/sports-cars/20...nd-porsche-911

This is precisely the sort of auto journalism that I spend hours each day browsing youtube and safari to find.

Given that auto journalists have better access to cars than us the driving public, they should use that access to query issues such as this that are beyond the reach of the average driver. I mean, I can go test drive most Porsches and BMWs at the dealership most times, but to get a comparison such as this - same day, same circuit/roads, that's nigh on impossible for the average bloke (or Miss).

This particular comparison is quite pertinent to me as these are the very two cars I am considering getting to keep as we drive off into the E future, and the issue of manual vs auto has really bugged me.

On the 992, I wonder if Henry would have felt the same way if it was the GTS instead of the S. Or the new Carrera T. When I spoke with a guy at the Porsche dealership a while back, he said exactly the same thing - generally, the 992 feels better in a pdk but the GTS he drove (just came out when we spoke) made a better case for getting the manual. It's also interesting that when Porsche brought the new Carrera T to California for reviews, five out of the six cars had a manual transmission. In fact I don't recollect seeing any review of the car with the pdk. Makes me wonder if cars like the GTS and T were optimized in development for the manual, while the base Carreras, S and turbos are optimized for the pdk. Personally, I've driven the Carrera S in both pdk and manual. I think on the whole, I might agree with Henry here on the pdk, but I found the manual in the 911 to be so much better than the Bmw manuals I had driven, that that alone made it feel really good.

Which brings me to the M2. I've had my OG LCI for going on five years now and I have determined that the one thing that could make me ever sell the car is the 1-2 up shift. It's not the best. It is almost never smooth. I still haven't figured out the best revs at which to shift, nor the ideal clutch take up point. It's quite annoying for what is an otherwise wonderful driving experience. When I'm at red lights, I am slightly worried about the car behind driving into me - basically every single time. And when I rev it out to get a head start, the revs fall so quickly that the car loses speed significantly before I can get it into 2nd and going again. When I drove the manual 992, this issue was basically non existent and that alone made me fall in love with the car immediately. Within minutes, I was driving it as comfortably as I drive my M2 and this was a performance center car. I've also never had this issue the numerous times I've driven ND Miatas. No fear of the red light with that car either. The Miata revs more easily and sustains momentum coming out of first gear way better than the M2. The shift to 2 is smoother and you're never wondering where the clutch take up point is. It's annoying cos in the M2, I quite enjoy 2 to 3, 3 to 4 and all the others. I also find downshifting generally fine across the range. But that 1 - 2 shift really gets me. All this said though, I'm not sure I would have gone for the M2 in Dct. But it has got me occasionally thinking about an M4 with auto and idrive 7. Before both give way to no shifter and drive 8.

Hats off to Catchpole for a great article. He does a great job and I hope we see even more more of these thoughtful and insightful reviews.

[veenut28]

Thanks for posting this. It’s very relevant to me since I’ve had my M2C for almost 4 years and have been contemplating an upgrade to either a CS or a 992 Carrera T. I placed an order for a manual T just last weekend (2nd on list for allocation) but I anticipate this being a 100% road car and I wonder about the suitability of the gearing of the manual in the Porsche for the back roads vs the track.

I have no such doubts about the CS since I’ve loved my C but it’s hard to justify the current market values which are hovering around 100k. Seems like a few are selling in the 80s-90s more recently which may prompt me to pull the trigger if I’m waiting for awhile for the 992.

[StateVector]

Originally Posted by Spydert

https://www.evo.co.uk/sports-cars/20...nd-porsche-911

This is precisely the sort of auto journalism that I spend hours each day browsing youtube and safari to find.

Given that auto journalists have better access to cars than us the driving public, they should use that access to query issues such as this that are beyond the reach of the average driver. I mean, I can go test drive most Porsches and BMWs at the dealership most times, but to get a comparison such as this - same day, same circuit/roads, that's nigh on impossible for the average bloke (or Miss).

This particular comparison is quite pertinent to me as these are the very two cars I am considering getting to keep as we drive off into the E future, and the issue of manual vs auto has really bugged me.

On the 992, I wonder if Henry would have felt the same way if it was the GTS instead of the S. Or the new Carrera T. When I spoke with a guy at the Porsche dealership a while back, he said exactly the same thing - generally, the 992 feels better in a pdk but the GTS he drove (just came out when we spoke) made a better case for getting the manual. It's also interesting that when Porsche brought the new Carrera T to California for reviews, five out of the six cars had a manual transmission. In fact I don't recollect seeing any review of the car with the pdk. Makes me wonder if cars like the GTS and T were optimized in development for the manual, while the base Carreras, S and turbos are optimized for the pdk. Personally, I've driven the Carrera S in both pdk and manual. I think on the whole, I might agree with Henry here on the pdk, but I found the manual in the 911 to be so much better than the Bmw manuals I had driven, that that alone made it feel really good.

Which brings me to the M2. I've had my OG LCI for going on five years now and I have determined that the one thing that could make me ever sell the car is the 1-2 up shift. I hate it. It is almost never smooth. I still haven't figured out the best revs at which to shift, nor the ideal clutch take up point. It's so annoying for what is an otherwise wonderful driving experience. When I'm at red lights, I am slightly worried about the car behind driving into me - basically every single time. And when I rev it out to get a head start, the revs fall so quickly that the car loses speed significantly before I can get it into 2 and going again. When I drove the manual 992, this issue was basically non existent and that alone made me fall in love with the car immediately. Within minutes, I was driving it as comfortably as I drive my M2 and this was a performance center car. I've also never had this issue the numerous times I've driven ND Miatas. No fear of the red light with that car either. The Miata revs more easily and sustains momentum coming out of first gear way better than the M2. The shift to 2 is smoother and you're never wondering where the clutch take up point is. It's really annoying cos in the M2, I quite enjoy 2 to 3, 3 to 4 and all the others. I also find downshifting generally fine across the range. But that 1 - 2 shift really, really pisses me off. All this said though, I'm not sure I would have gone for the M2 in Dct. But it has got me thinking about an M4 with auto and idrive 7. Before both give way to no shifter and drive 8.

Hats off to Catchpole for a great article. He does a great job and I hope we see even more more of these thoughtful and insightful reviews.

I haven't really noticed the issue of the revs falling too quickly to shift into 2nd, but when I got my '16 OG M2, I definitely noticed the issue of performing a clean 1-2 upshift with the inconsistent clutch friction point and overall herky jerkiness in the shift. After I replaced the stock clutch slave cylinder with the e92 slave cylinder, I noticed a big difference in both off the line clutch grabs from a stop, but also the 1-2 shift. The clutch friction point is spot on with every shift now. The e92 slave cylinder doesn't have the annoying clutch delay valve on the inside, so it essentially deletes it from your M2, and is a plug-and-play part.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Spydert

https://www.evo.co.uk/sports-cars/20...nd-porsche-911

This is precisely the sort of auto journalism that I spend hours each day browsing youtube and safari to find.

Given that auto journalists have better access to cars than us the driving public, they should use that access to query issues such as this that are beyond the reach of the average driver. I mean, I can go test drive most Porsches and BMWs at the dealership most times, but to get a comparison such as this - same day, same circuit/roads, that's nigh on impossible for the average bloke (or Miss).

This particular comparison is quite pertinent to me as these are the very two cars I am considering getting to keep as we drive off into the E future, and the issue of manual vs auto has really bugged me.

On the 992, I wonder if Henry would have felt the same way if it was the GTS instead of the S. Or the new Carrera T. When I spoke with a guy at the Porsche dealership a while back, he said exactly the same thing - generally, the 992 feels better in a pdk but the GTS he drove (just came out when we spoke) made a better case for getting the manual. It's also interesting that when Porsche brought the new Carrera T to California for reviews, five out of the six cars had a manual transmission. In fact I don't recollect seeing any review of the car with the pdk. Makes me wonder if cars like the GTS and T were optimized in development for the manual, while the base Carreras, S and turbos are optimized for the pdk. Personally, I've driven the Carrera S in both pdk and manual. I think on the whole, I might agree with Henry here on the pdk, but I found the manual in the 911 to be so much better than the Bmw manuals I had driven, that that alone made it feel really good.

Which brings me to the M2. I've had my OG LCI for going on five years now and I have determined that the one thing that could make me ever sell the car is the 1-2 up shift. I hate it. It is almost never smooth. I still haven't figured out the best revs at which to shift, nor the ideal clutch take up point. It's so annoying for what is an otherwise wonderful driving experience. When I'm at red lights, I am slightly worried about the car behind driving into me - basically every single time. And when I rev it out to get a head start, the revs fall so quickly that the car loses speed significantly before I can get it into 2 and going again. When I drove the manual 992, this issue was basically non existent and that alone made me fall in love with the car immediately. Within minutes, I was driving it as comfortably as I drive my M2 and this was a performance center car. I've also never had this issue the numerous times I've driven ND Miatas. No fear of the red light with that car either. The Miata revs more easily and sustains momentum coming out of first gear way better than the M2. The shift to 2 is smoother and you're never wondering where the clutch take up point is. It's really annoying cos in the M2, I quite enjoy 2 to 3, 3 to 4 and all the others. I also find downshifting generally fine across the range. But that 1 - 2 shift really, really pisses me off. All this said though, I'm not sure I would have gone for the M2 in Dct. But it has got me thinking about an M4 with auto and idrive 7. Before both give way to no shifter and drive 8.

Hats off to Catchpole for a great article. He does a great job and I hope we see even more more of these thoughtful and insightful reviews.

To me, the whole issue with the 1->2 shift is how long you have to wait before the transmission lets you into 2nd without abusing the synchros. The long pause is not in sync with the engine behavior. This is a long-present issue with BMW manuals in M cars. It's a shame the synchros have not been upgraded to improve this in all this time. It was quite a bit worse in my Z4M if you can believe it. My bog standard Mazda 3 can be shifted much more quickly into 2nd.

[Spydert]

Originally Posted by StateVector

I haven't really noticed the issue of the revs falling too quickly to shift into 2nd, but when I got my '16 OG M2, I definitely noticed the issue of performing a clean 1-2 upshift with the inconsistent clutch friction point and overall herky jerkiness in the shift. After I replaced the stock clutch slave cylinder with the e92 slave cylinder, I noticed a big difference in both off the line clutch grabs from a stop, but also the 1-2 shift. The clutch friction point is spot on with every shift now. The e92 slave cylinder doesn't have the annoying clutch delay valve on the inside, so it essentially deletes it from your M2, and is a plug-and-play part.

Thanks for sharing. I'm not really into modding cars but if there ever was something I wanted to change on the car, I would def be looking into these sort of options first.

[blackout23]

Henry Catchpole is just such a pro. I pretty much love everything he touches.

I'm finding myself in a frustrating predicament and it isn't the first time. This very debate has had me bouncing back and forth between literally over a half-dozen cars, many of them flirting with or over six figures. I think the only true solution is to have both. As insane as that sounds... it would have saved me probably $50k over the past 5 years or so...

Quick backstory, I decided back in 2015 that I was sick of getting stuck in DC traffic so decided to trade in my nearly new 2015 STI for an F82 M4 with a DCT. That lasted about 2 months before I realized the mistake I made...

So fast forward a bit- after giving up on the M4 after actually making it 2 full years, I've since been through a 981 Boxster GTS (6MT), an Audi S3 (DCT), a 991.2 Carrera S (7MT), Audi S4 (ZF 8speed), Audi RS5 (ZF8), and finally two consecutive 718 Boxster GTSs, one with the 2.5T and now the 4.0, both PDK.

After this whirlwind, I'm now facing a situation where I miss having a manual yet again.

It's also important to note that in the above fiasco with all the cars I've "owned" in the past few years, there was some overlap. I bought the S3 as an "augmentation" for the 981 BGTS, and it actually was a near perfect setup. I also had the S4 concurrently with the 991. That was truly the best of both worlds, but obviously is pretty impractical, especially when I don't have a daily commute. So here I was spending a not insignificant amount owning an extra car that I literally just used for joyrides and errands, and the occasional business related travel.

I'm not made of money, at least not until both my college age boys are out on their own, so I'm forced down to one car. As absolutely fantastic as the Boxster GTS 4.0 is, I'm finally realizing that I'll just never be fully content until I can consistently have two "fun" cars- one with 2 pedals, and one with 3.

Which ironically is why I find myself posting here, not currently owning a BMW at all. I bought my wife a 2023 Macan GTS, which surprisingly is far closer to resembling a sports car than I ever thought possible. So now, as INSANE as it sounds, after going through a brutal 15 month wait, I'm actually considering trading in my 718 for a manual F87 M2C (or G87), at least until I can justify having a 2nd car a few years down the road.

First world problems in my case, for sure... but it just goes to validate that for probably many of us, there is no true solution.

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by blackout23

Henry Catchpole is just such a pro. I pretty much love everything he touches.

I'm finding myself in a frustrating predicament and it isn't the first time. This very debate has had me bouncing back and forth between literally over a half-dozen cars, many of them flirting with or over six figures. I think the only true solution is to have both. As insane as that sounds... it would have saved me probably $50k over the past 5 years or so...

Quick backstory, I decided back in 2015 that I was sick of getting stuck in DC traffic so decided to trade in my nearly new 2015 STI for an F82 M4 with a DCT. That lasted about 2 months before I realized the mistake I made...

So fast forward a bit- after giving up on the M4 after actually making it 2 full years, I've since been through a 981 Boxster GTS (6MT), an Audi S3 (DCT), a 991.2 Carrera S (7MT), Audi S4 (ZF 8speed), Audi RS5 (ZF8), and finally two consecutive 718 Boxster GTSs, one with the 2.5T and now the 4.0, both PDK.

After this whirlwind, I'm now facing a situation where I miss having a manual yet again.

It's also important to note that in the above fiasco with all the cars I've "owned" in the past few years, there was some overlap. I bought the S3 as an "augmentation" for the 981 BGTS, and it actually was a near perfect setup. I also had the S4 concurrently with the 991. That was truly the best of both worlds, but obviously is pretty impractical, especially when I don't have a daily commute. So here I was spending a not insignificant amount owning an extra car that I literally just used for joyrides and errands, [...]

Holy smokes you went through a lot of cars! Any favs?
How was the S3, and S4? I was looking at both of them but got scared of the Dsg on the S4 B8.5 and the S3 I’ve heard is somewhat dull to drive. Bought a M235i and I love it

[blackout23]

Originally Posted by mecheng77

Holy smokes you went through a lot of cars! Any favs?
How was the S3, and S4? I was looking at both of them but got scared of the Dsg on the S4 B8.5 and the S3 I’ve heard is somewhat dull to drive. Bought a M235i and I love it

Favs are the RS5 for daily commuting (although an important note, the 95B.3 Macan GTS is even better at being a sports sedan than an RS5, or even an M5 for that matter IMHO), 991 for pure driving experience, and 718 4.0 for all around sports car experience (the drop top doesn't hurt). That engine note NEVER gets old... even better than the 981's 3.4 (from inside the car).

That said, I loved each and every one of them in their own ways and in a perfect world I'd still have all of them. The S3 actually was amazing, and IMO an absolute blast to drive. In fact, the idea was that I'd "consolidate" from the 981/S3 combo to the 991 and that would be my "daily". Reality set in and I realized I didn't need to get rid of the S3, and I liked it so much I kept it around long enough to let myself be tempted to upgrading to the S4. All of the Audis were just epic to drive around town... where I'd say they came up short though was steering. The steering was just too "Audi" to let me fully enjoy them as sports cars, even the RS5. They were all punchy to drive around town though, and I swear the ZF tuning in the S4 and RS5 makes it one of the best transmissions I've ever driven until you reach about 6 or 7 tenths... then its flaws are revealed. They're not bad when driven in anger, but at that point you'd want a true dual clutch... But if that's your jam, you may be very pleased with the Audis.

Actually let me walk that back a bit- the DSG in the S3 tuning wasn't spectacular. It was too reserved in normal mode and too aggressive in sport mode unless you're really getting after it, then it was great. That was a car that forced me to use the paddles to not be irritated by the shift tuning more frequently than anything except my wife's 95B.2 Macan S... but manually shifting worked. The offset for the transmission tuning being a bit irritating was that the steering was actually not bad (for an Audi). A really fun car and a perfect augmentation to my then 981 manual boxster.

Haven't driven an M235i so can't quite compare, but another reason I bought the S3 was for the all wheel drive in the winter. I'm honestly not sure if the M235i is available in x drive, but at the point I bought the S3 I had already had so many BMWs I figured I'd mix it up, so the 2 series wasn't even in contention. They're different experiences for sure... and Audi does the "daily commute" thing better IMO. BMW is generally better for fun though, but the S3 may be the exception. That 2.0 is a really great engine and the chassis feels like a sports car.

The S4 just pretty much takes everything up a notch over the S3 (the RS5 another 2 notches above the S4...), but they're obviously more expensive. I fell for the massage seats... I LOVED driving that car long distances. It was pretty fun to drive too as long as you sort of expect a "filtered" experience, at least relative to M cars or god forbid a Porsche. It was a great car too though.

Hope that helps, I'm always happy to talk about all the freakin cars I've owned.

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by blackout23

Favs are the RS5 for daily commuting (although an important note, the 95B.3 Macan GTS is even better at being a sports sedan than an RS5, or even an M5 for that matter IMHO), 991 for pure driving experience, and 718 4.0 for all around sports car experience (the drop top doesn't hurt). That engine note NEVER gets old... even better than the 981's 3.4 (from inside the car).

That said, I loved each and every one of them in their own ways and in a perfect world I'd still have all of them. The S3 actually was amazing, and IMO an absolute blast to drive. In fact, the idea was that I'd "consolidate" from the 981/S3 combo to the 991 and that would be my "daily". Reality set in and I realized I didn't need to get rid of the S3, and I liked it so much I kept it around long enough to let myself be tempted to upgrading to the S4. All of the Audis were just epic to drive around town... where I'd say they came up short though was steering. The steering was just too "Audi" to let me fully enjoy them as sports cars, even the RS5. They were all punchy to drive around town though, and I swear the ZF tuning in the S4 and RS5 makes it one of the best transmissions I've ever driven until you reach about 6 or 7 tenths... then its flaws are revealed. They're not bad when driven in anger, but at that point you'd want a true dual clutch... But if that's your jam, you may be very pleased with the Audis.

Actually let me walk that back a bit- the DSG in the S3 tuning wasn't spectacular. It was too reserved in normal mode and too aggressive in sport mode unless you're really getting [...]

I was going to buy a new GTI, but it is so plagued with so many electrical gremlins and infotainment issues, I was worried about owning it after the warantee. It has the Magna differential which is much better than what the S3 has

The M235i comes in x drive starting in 2015, but I specifically wanted RWD and we get snow here. All you need is snow tires, awd is not needed unless you drive on un plowed roads, who really does that.

Sounds like you essentially loved all the cars equally. I like that the s3 is 4 doors but the 2 series is very roomy in the back, my daughter loves it

[StateVector]

Originally Posted by blackout23

Favs are the RS5 for daily commuting (although an important note, the 95B.3 Macan GTS is even better at being a sports sedan than an RS5, or even an M5 for that matter IMHO), 991 for pure driving experience, and 718 4.0 for all around sports car experience (the drop top doesn't hurt). That engine note NEVER gets old... even better than the 981's 3.4 (from inside the car).

That said, I loved each and every one of them in their own ways and in a perfect world I'd still have all of them. The S3 actually was amazing, and IMO an absolute blast to drive. In fact, the idea was that I'd "consolidate" from the 981/S3 combo to the 991 and that would be my "daily". Reality set in and I realized I didn't need to get rid of the S3, and I liked it so much I kept it around long enough to let myself be tempted to upgrading to the S4. All of the Audis were just epic to drive around town... where I'd say they came up short though was steering. The steering was just too "Audi" to let me fully enjoy them as sports cars, even the RS5. They were all punchy to drive around town though, and I swear the ZF tuning in the S4 and RS5 makes it one of the best transmissions I've ever driven until you reach about 6 or 7 tenths... then its flaws are revealed. They're not bad when driven in anger, but at that point you'd want a true dual clutch... But if that's your jam, you may be very pleased with the Audis.

Actually let me walk that back a bit- the DSG in the S3 tuning wasn't spectacular. It was too reserved in normal mode and too aggressive in sport mode unless you're really getting after it, then it was great. That was a car that forced me to use the paddles to not be irritated by the shift tuning more frequently than anything except my wife's 95B.2 Macan S... but manually shifting worked. The offset for the transmission tuning being a bit irritating was that the steering was actually not bad (for an Audi). A really fun car and a perfect augmentation to my then 981 manual boxster.

Haven't driven an M235i so can't quite compare, but another reason I bought the S3 was for the all wheel drive in the winter. I'm honestly not sure if the M235i is available in x drive, but at the point I bought the S3 I had already had so many BMWs I figured I'd mix it up, so the 2 series wasn't even in contention. They're different experiences for sure... and Audi does the "daily commute" thing better IMO. BMW is generally better for fun though, but the S3 may be the exception. That 2.0 is a really great engine and the chassis feels like a sports car.

The S4 just pretty much takes everything up a notch over the S3 (the RS5 another 2 notches above the S4...), but they're obviously more expensive. I fell for the massage seats... I LOVED driving that car long distances. It was pretty fun to drive too as long as you sort of expect a "filtered" experience, at least relative to M cars or god forbid a Porsche. It was a great car too though.

Hope that helps, I'm always happy to talk about all the freakin cars I've owned.

You have a great history of cool cars, must have been a fun experience! I enjoy mixing up cars as well..I can speak specifically on the S3 to M2 comparison...well, there is none IMHO. A few years ago, I bought a pre-owned 2015 S3 and turned it back into the dealer after a few weeks. I honestly don't know what I was thinking? It's fine around town, but holy crap that turbo lag (or throttle lag?) was brutal. I noticed a significant delay between throttle pressure and forward movement. My only other real gripe was the horrible understeer and the feeling of driving a snowplow everywhere, even at 5/10ths. Anyway, the M2 is nearly instant throttle response and handles very well and can carry kids and everything else...you won't be disappointed. I have had a couple Lotuses and a Cayman as well...while i miss the shift feel in the Cayman, I just can't beat the M2 for checking most of the boxes.