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      06-21-2019, 04:58 AM   #1
MisterGoober
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Michelin Pilot Sport Conspiracy

Why does the M2C come equipped with Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires? Surprised they didn't use PS4s, especially since these come on the Mustang V8/PP1 etc.

I read in another thread that Michelin will keep making them so they'll stay on the M2C for near future, but i'm curious why not just go to PS4, would the performance numbers have been too high?
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      06-21-2019, 07:40 AM   #2
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They are more than you’ll ever need on the road. Progressive, communicative and fit the car’s character perfectly. If you are heavily into track days and want faster times rather than entertainment you’ll have a seperate set of wheels and tyres anyway. Enjoy them.
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      06-21-2019, 07:54 AM   #3
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Maybe they have a contractual obligation to fill all the F series M cars with the older tire - who knows.

I have PS4s on my F80 and prefer them to the Super Sports that came on my car stock - the PS$ is a great tire.
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      06-21-2019, 08:02 AM   #4
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Conspiracy?

The MPSS that come with the car were developed and tuned specifically for the M2. If BMW wanted to supersede them with MPS4S that would outperform them they”d have to spend a lot of $$$ in R&D. They won’t this far into the M2’s life cycle. All next gen M cars will get the MPS4S tires.
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      06-21-2019, 08:10 AM   #5
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Tag is correct as is totally normal and there is no conspiracy. It's rare to ever see any automaker make a tire change mid-model generation and there's plenty of reasons why including overhead costs of adding a different tire, contractual obligations to tire makers especially if the tires have been tweaked specifically for the model. It's likely next gen M2 comes with PS4 tires but same scenario will likely happen where Michelin comes out with a better tire and that generation of car is stuck with the PS4.
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      06-21-2019, 12:19 PM   #6
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Tag, are the tires a special version? Just curious, I’m completely happy with them, but it’s been a while since I’ve run PSS so can’t remember if these are different t from normal (and it was on a different car)
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      06-21-2019, 12:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterGoober View Post
Tag, are the tires a special version? Just curious, I’m completely happy with them, but it’s been a while since I’ve run PSS so can’t remember if these are different t from normal (and it was on a different car)
Check the code on the sidewall, usually a two or three characters. You can also check Michelin's site directly. Sometimes they'll say OE or Original Equipment, if they don't check the PN. You see MPSS tires with the same size, fitment, rating, etc., but the PN will be different. Use the PN that Michelin recommends to find out which tire is correct.
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      06-21-2019, 04:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterGoober View Post
Why does the M2C come equipped with Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires? Surprised they didn't use PS4s, especially since these come on the Mustang V8/PP1 etc.

I read in another thread that Michelin will keep making them so they'll stay on the M2C for near future, but i'm curious why not just go to PS4, would the performance numbers have been too high?
BMW basically never updates OEM tires once they decide on specs for a given model. The M2 got M3 / M4 tires basically, despite the small change in width.

For example, the E46 M3 came with Michelin PS1 or Continental CSC1 even though PS2 were available by the end of its life. The Z4M came out in 2006 and used E46 M3 tires until 2008! Continental had already been on the 3rd iteration of the ContiSportContact by then.
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      06-21-2019, 05:51 PM   #9
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Omg so much misinformation in this thread.

The freaking tire is specific to this model year, it doesn't matter if it says PSS or Cup2(well it does but less than what people make of it here).

Kinda tired of posting the same thing I may just copy paste from another thread
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      06-21-2019, 08:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
Omg so much misinformation in this thread.

The freaking tire is specific to this model year, it doesn't matter if it says PSS or Cup2(well it does but less than what people make of it here).

Kinda tired of posting the same thing I may just copy paste from another thread
Please do.

Edit: Tire Rack has OEM replacement PSS, regular PSS, and PS4 (and other brands), for 2018 M2 and 2020 M2C. It would be surprising if a manufacturer, car or tire, spent money to specify a different tire for each year. A specific tire for each generation seems reasonable.

Last edited by natmad; 06-21-2019 at 08:50 PM..
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      06-22-2019, 03:27 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterGoober View Post
Tag, are the tires a special version? Just curious, I’m completely happy with them, but it’s been a while since I’ve run PSS so can’t remember if these are different t from normal (and it was on a different car)

At least it claims to be specific: PSS definition for BMW has a star "*" (like for Porsche you can see N0, N1 etc.)
As said by others, specific validation, reference is the reason why a manufacturer does not change its recommendation when a new version of a recommended tyre is out.
However for sure nothing prevents you from fitting PS4S. As far as I know there are already few who tried and were happy. I gave a quick check on Michelin tyre chooser and for M2C, they list both (PS4S and PSS)

Last edited by nidfix; 06-22-2019 at 09:54 AM..
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      06-22-2019, 04:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natmad View Post
Please do.

Edit: Tire Rack has OEM replacement PSS, regular PSS, and PS4 (and other brands), for 2018 M2 and 2020 M2C. It would be surprising if a manufacturer, car or tire, spent money to specify a different tire for each year. A specific tire for each generation seems reasonable.
It is specific to the model of car(s) it was put on. In the case of the M2 and M2C, the tire is identical and unique. Whether one believes it is any different than the M3 / M4 PSS other than 10mm of section width is a different question.

Spetsnazos has experience in the industy, but only those with access to the BMW requirements document sent to Michelin for this PSS know how different it is from the standard retail version. If you want to know my guess, it's that it is quite similar to the retail tire.

Here is an anecdotal data point - the Corvette C7 came with PSS that some claim are stickier than others. They also had widespread cracking when exposed to or stored at low temps - GM had to issue a bulletin. I have not seen any reports of cracking on F80/F82s. If I were to guess, I'd say they were PSS tread but with a compound closer to a Cup 2.
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      06-22-2019, 10:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Spetsnazos has experience in the industy, but only those with access to the BMW requirements document sent to Michelin for this PSS know how different it is from the standard retail version. If you want to know my guess, it's that it is quite similar to the retail tire.
100% true that I don't know. I'd say it's likely the M2 and M2C are similar but even more unlikely with the M3/M4. Different width alone dictates a different tire. They could have extrapolated the materials but 10mm is a pretty huge difference.

The reason I think that the M2/M2C are similar are only in that they were rushed to get the M2C our due to emissions. The cars produce a substantial(over 10%) difference in power(distribution included) as well as totally different 4 corner weights. Unless bmw didn't care(which I don't believe for a second due to the number of car journos that had a swing at it) they made sure Michelin gave them the perfect tire.

A friend of mine that's a sales rep in Michigan is going to France in a few weeks and will give me 100% confirmation. Until then I'll assume the trend
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      06-22-2019, 01:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
100% true that I don't know. I'd say it's likely the M2 and M2C are similar but even more unlikely with the M3/M4. Different width alone dictates a different tire. They could have extrapolated the materials but 10mm is a pretty huge difference.

The reason I think that the M2/M2C are similar are only in that they were rushed to get the M2C our due to emissions. The cars produce a substantial(over 10%) difference in power(distribution included) as well as totally different 4 corner weights. Unless bmw didn't care(which I don't believe for a second due to the number of car journos that had a swing at it) they made sure Michelin gave them the perfect tire.

A friend of mine that's a sales rep in Michigan is going to France in a few weeks and will give me 100% confirmation. Until then I'll assume the trend
BMW historically does not care that much. BMW put the exact same tires from the E36 and E46 M3 on both the Z3M and Z4M respectively, which are vastly different cars from the E36 M3 and E46 M3 in weight and setup. BMW also put the same tires as the E92 M3 on the 1M. BMW is interested in profit margin and the tire is "close enough".
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      06-22-2019, 03:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
BMW historically does not care that much. BMW put the exact same tires from the E36 and E46 M3 on both the Z3M and Z4M respectively, which are vastly different cars from the E36 M3 and E46 M3 in weight and setup. BMW also put the same tires as the E92 M3 on the 1M. BMW is interested in profit margin and the tire is "close enough".
I've worked with people that worked on bmw OE programs and they go out of their way to push for extreme performance out of tire manufacturers. The i3 tire was actually very revolutionary for the industry(skinny/tall, meaning high sidewall and thin tread width) which had amazing RR.

Trust me if they wanted close enough they would accept bids from 3rd tier tire manufacturers like Toyo, Kumho, Yoko, and Falken, because those guys would literally give their OE tires away for free just to market on the BMW brand. Goodyear(Dunlop in EMEA) spent metric shitton on every BMW OE program. Michelin would lose every single RFP if they submitted tires for different cars.
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      06-22-2019, 04:09 PM   #16
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Not sure what the complaint is. Micheline PSS is a great tire that's trackable up to intermediate level, yet delivers good life and street manners.

Besides, if your cars came with Michelin PSC2's 75% of this crowd would be complaining about having to replace them at 6000 miles.
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      06-22-2019, 04:14 PM   #17
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OK, lets say that's right. If you have all these different versions of the same tyre and size, how do you actually buy them as replacements when all you have is size xxx with BMW star?

No choice of model or year, just size and BMW star?

M2 and M2C having same size.
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      06-22-2019, 06:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
OK, lets say that's right. If you have all these different versions of the same tyre and size, how do you actually buy them as replacements when all you have is size xxx with BMW star?

No choice of model or year, just size and BMW star?

M2 and M2C having same size.
I don't know where you buy your tires from, but everywhere I have have gone in the past 20 years to replace my tires with OEM ones ask the same three questions - what year? What make? What model?
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      06-22-2019, 07:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
OK, lets say that's right. If you have all these different versions of the same tyre and size, how do you actually buy them as replacements when all you have is size xxx with BMW star?

No choice of model or year, just size and BMW star?

M2 and M2C having same size.
BMW star doesn't mean anything(other than to note that it's an OE specific tire and that's specific to BMW).

When I was at GY we had an OE fitment book(software too) but we typically bought them from tirerack. When you enter your car make model and year you'll see the OE fitment.

Idk internally what Michelin does, but we knew based on DOT codes(which shows manufacturing plant) alongside specific sidewall markings.

It's actually quite obvious most of the time when looking at a replacement tire vs an OE tire. The tread pattern will be different in either the groove depth, sipe density and sipe depth, pitch sequence or the pitch itself.

As I said in the other thread. Michelin's goal is to get people to associate high quality/performance OE tires with their replacement business. The PSS on our M2s could very well have the same tread compound as a Cup tire, but what Michelin wants is more sales of the PSS, likely because it has a bigger tire line(way more sizes and is all season vs summer).

I worked with a guy that developed tires at Michelin, they literally do the exact same thing except it was obvious that Michelin had much better predictive analysis and a much better manufacturing process. Dear god their uniformity was spot on...Once I shred these tires I'll cut a tire section to see if it's still built on a C3M.

If anyone shreds an OE tire on an F80/82 or the OG M2, I'll buy it at $50, cut it and show you guys the differences in construction(can't do a compound test on silica/natural rubber/etc because I no longer have access to that sort of stuff)
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      06-22-2019, 07:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Not sure what the complaint is. Micheline PSS is a great tire that's trackable up to intermediate level, yet delivers good life and street manners.

Besides, if your cars came with Michelin PSC2's 75% of this crowd would be complaining about having to replace them at 6000 miles.
Lmao yes. When I first joined the industry, OEs didn't care about tire wear because it looked bad on the tire manufacturer and the initial sale was already over. OEs really really care about that test drive and magazine reviews. If they got shat on in a magazine review or if the potential buyer thought the ride was rough, that would stop a sale which was a huge no-no. Tire wear? Lolz thats the tire manufacturer looking bad, it doesn't have the BMW name on it.

Tire manufacturers started to make a push for a minimum of 36k mile treadwear on all OE tires(36k coincides with lease terms). Now nobody wants bad reviews so most manufacturers have minimums on treadwear.

Michelin is a beast at treadwear though, they actually hit 80k miles on E91 tests.
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      06-25-2019, 09:09 AM   #21
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Not exactly sure why some people are getting excited as this isn't new or anything. There are a gazillion versions of Pirelli P-Zero tires that may look visually similar but differ slightly as per manufacturer specifications if it's on say a Ford Mustang GT vs a Porsche 991. One thing about German manufacturers is for some reason (lower volume sales maybe?) they seem to sub Continentals or even Bridgestone while on a domestic or Japanese car if it ws developed with a Goodyear or Dunlop tire all cars will ship with that tire.
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      06-25-2019, 09:32 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Not exactly sure why some people are getting excited as this isn't new or anything. There are a gazillion versions of Pirelli P-Zero tires that may look visually similar but differ slightly as per manufacturer specifications if it's on say a Ford Mustang GT vs a Porsche 991. One thing about German manufacturers is for some reason (lower volume sales maybe?) they seem to sub Continentals or even Bridgestone while on a domestic or Japanese car if it ws developed with a Goodyear or Dunlop tire all cars will ship with that tire.
I bet they do it for costs as you note. But I'm sure what they do is a dual bid process. Continental is cheaper at 95% of performance so they use it as the second manufacturer to fill gaps or lulls in production with Michelin being the primary supplier. Given Continental sponsors the performance schools in the US, I'm sure that discount is nice for BMW.
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