[///393]

Originally Posted by keylime503

- stock tires are fine for now. Cording the outside edges is a real threat so it’s important to keep the PSIs low. I let out air to 32 PSI when I arrive at the track and I monitor to make sure I never go above 36/37 hot when I come in from sessions. Haven’t had any bad tire wear or cording since I started doing this (knock on wood).

Solid guidance for PSS. Second this.

[bogdiniciu]

Originally Posted by keylime503

I do HPDEs with my M2C about 4 times a year. Yesterday I went to Laguna Seca for the first time after updating my fluid (SRF) and pads (EBC blues). Some perspective from a fellow HPDE newb (~10 days total):

- As others have said, the number one thing is brake fluid. You don’t want to find out the limits of the stock street fluid when you’re going 120mph into a braking zone and your pedal falls to the floor
- Pads are second, but personally I find fluid to be a clear number one if you have to pick one
- As a new track driver building your driver abilities is far more important and useful than building your car’s abilities. To that end, do whatever upgrades allow you to feel safe and confident while pushing your abilities. For me, that was simply fluid and pads. YMMV.
- stock tires are fine for now. Cording the outside edges is a real threat so it’s important to keep the PSIs low. I let out air to 32 PSI when I arrive at the track and I monitor to make sure I never go above 36/37 hot when I come in from sessions. Haven’t had any bad tire wear or cording since I started doing this (knock on wood).
- I run MDM mode on the track. With full traction control on I actually found it extremely annoying and difficult to control the car in high speed corners, it just kicks in way too much.

Awesome! Thank you for your input. I will definitely do brake fluid and possibly brake pads before the first HPDE next month. I agree the you philosophy of trying to keep thing stock until your abilities catch up.

[bogdiniciu]

UPDATE!

I finally attended my first track day on Sunday and here are my thoughts and some additional questions.

First, thank you all for the input you provided. I decided to leave the car completely stock (except for brake fluid) which turned out to be a great idea because it's easier to grow with the car and see your mistakes better. The car was an absolute BLAST! at least for my level .

After a couple of session, I started "pushing" the car more and the weak link started to appear - my tires were getting very hot after 5-6 laps (180F) and my grip would just fall off the cliff (OE Super Sport). So that's my area of focus now since that was the biggest limitation. I have some questions

1. Is the increase in temperature normal for track driving or is there anything I can do as a driver to improve that? Also, would more track-oriented tires reduce the stip increase of temp? There were cars on the track keeping the same pace for 20-30 min with no problem.

Again, thank you for all your help.

[alkatraz]

Nice! Which track?

[bogdiniciu]

Originally Posted by alkatraz

Nice! Which track?

WorldWide Technology Raceway (former Gateway motorsport) near St Louis, MO.

[bentom2]

Originally Posted by bogdiniciu

UPDATE!

I finally attended my first track day on Sunday and here are my thoughts and some additional questions.

1. Is the increase in temperature normal for track driving or is there anything I can do as a driver to improve that? Also, would more track-oriented tires reduce the stip increase of temp? There were cars on the track keeping the same pace for 20-30 min with no problem.

Again, thank you for all your help.

Congratulations on a successful first day!

Were you reducing tire pressures to target a hot pressure? Not sure what’s ideal for a PSS on track, but you can easily add 10 or more psi from cold to hot, and this added pressure further increases tire temps, leading to them overheating as you experienced. Did you note the pressures when you saw 180?

Starting at a cold pressure 5-7 psi below the target street pressure (so 28-30 psi) will keep you above where the TPMS freaks out, but will leave you some headroom for the tires to heat up on track. You may find that you need to bleed some more off throughout the day, but this risks triggering TPMS to lock you into comfort mode, so may not be worth the trouble just yet. There are workarounds such as starting a TPMS reset as you’re entering the track, but during your first few events, you’ll have plenty else on your mind.

Track tires will suffer from this as well, so I’d try working with tire pressures before changing them out.

Have fun out there!

[PackPride85]

Max hot psi for PSS is 38. Above that and grip goes down substantially. I aim for 36 hot and will usually start cold around 28-30.

[Fabb]

Those car hoplapping the entire 20min session will be on a 100tw tire or their pace is conservative. Track day is about enjoying yourself not comparing with others. Focus on the initial few laps that your tire have the most pace in, and do cooldown lap after it heats up. I had a blast with PSS tires on my early track days.

[bogdiniciu]

Originally Posted by bentom2

Congratulations on a successful first day!

Were you reducing tire pressures to target a hot pressure? Not sure what’s ideal for a PSS on track, but you can easily add 10 or more psi from cold to hot, and this added pressure further increases tire temps, leading to them overheating as you experienced. Did you note the pressures when you saw 180?

Starting at a cold pressure 5-7 psi below the target street pressure (so 28-30 psi) will keep you above where the TPMS freaks out, but will leave you some headroom for the tires to heat up on track. You may find that you need to bleed some more off throughout the day, but this risks triggering TPMS to lock you into comfort mode, so may not be worth the trouble just yet. There are workarounds such as starting a TPMS reset as you’re entering the track, but during your first few events, you’ll have plenty else on your mind.

Track tires will suffer from this as well, so I’d try working with tire pressures before changing them out.

Have fun out there!

Thanks for the info!

I set the tires at 32 cold both F and R and they were around 38-39 when hitting 180F. I still have to understand better tire pressures and temp but when I asked my instructor he said that lowering PSI will just increase temps even faster.

I was just shocked at the fact that the tires became so hot after just a few laps (outside was hot too, around 100f).

I will play with lower tire pressure next time and see how it works.

[iWayne]

PSS/PS4s street tires are fine on the track and some guys are really fast on them in the upper intermediate/adv run groups. I found PSS/PS4 worked well for me when targeting ~36-37psi hot but like all tires on the race track, it'll depend on conditions and you will have to manage you tires (i.e. cool down lap or two and then get back on it). You'll need to have more -ve camber in the front as you will eat the outer shoulders in a day or two when you get faster.

[///393]

It’s all about your tire pressures hot. What you’re experiencing is not unique. Grip drops off a cliff around 39psi it seems with 300tw PSS.

Keep an eye on your pressures next outing. When you come off track after your first session, immediately check your tire pressures and drop pressures to 36.

Go run session 2 and if necessary, run the same play. After that, you should be fine. Whatever you go back
out with for session 3, your pressures should be sorted.

That said, there are limits to 300tw tires and 200tw tires like Falken 660, RE-71RS, Cup2, etc will be better suited for track duty.

Resist the urge to reach for stickies right away and get some more seat time exploring the car on PSS. If you add grip, you’ll just be going faster when inevitably something gets out of sorts. Swing the bat with a donut on it, that way when you pull it off you’re ready.

[bentom2]

Originally Posted by bogdiniciu

Thanks for the info!

I set the tires at 32 cold both F and R and they were around 38-39 when hitting 180F. I still have to understand better tire pressures and temp but when I asked my instructor he said that lowering PSI will just increase temps even faster.

I was just shocked at the fact that the tires became so hot after just a few laps (outside was hot too, around 100f).

I will play with lower tire pressure next time and see how it works.

Not too many tires are happy on track on a 100 degree day. Track surface in the afternoon is probably significantly hotter than that. See how things go on a cooler day (below 80). That hot track surface would’ve played a significant role in what you experienced.

[LBB4BSTN]

Lots of good advice in the thread.

As far as having a car that is fun on the backroads and also good at autocross and runs stock wheels and tire sizes, I would recommend the Falken RT660. Similar steering feel to the OEM PSS (PS4 are great but softer and turn in is not as crisp in my opinion). The ultimate grip is much better, they tolerate higher heat and pressures better as well, at least with regards to autocross events.

[medphysdave]

No shame in taking some cool down laps for the tires. My cup2s take about 5 laps to get up to temp. Then I can bake them in another 10min on a sub 2min track.

[Suds]

The next progression is usually adding some camber plates.
As you learn to push you car harder you will find the outside tire shoulders wear really quickly compared to the normal tire tread.
This is the 2nd Oh, of tracking cars.

I run square sets of tires so I can swap front and rear wheels.

Originally Posted by bogdiniciu

UPDATE!

I finally attended my first track day on Sunday and here are my thoughts and some additional questions.

First, thank you all for the input you provided. I decided to leave the car completely stock (except for brake fluid) which turned out to be a great idea because it's easier to grow with the car and see your mistakes better. The car was an absolute BLAST! at least for my level .

After a couple of session, I started "pushing" the car more and the weak link started to appear - my tires were getting very hot after 5-6 laps (180F) and my grip would just fall off the cliff (OE Super Sport). So that's my area of focus now since that was the biggest limitation. I have some questions

1. Is the increase in temperature normal for track driving or is there anything I can do as a driver to improve that? Also, would more track-oriented tires reduce the stip increase of temp? There were cars on the track keeping the same pace for 20-30 min with no problem.

Again, thank you for all your help.

[PackPride85]

I only just finished my 2nd HPDE this weekend. I've just been running rbf 600 and hawk DTC-60 pads. I can't believe people would run stock pads/fluids at a track like VIR where you can easily hit 140+ on the straights. You only need one fade event to end up in the wall.

I ran both times on my pilot sport 4s street tires. Like the PSS the max psi is about 38 before they get sloppy. Starting them at 32 psi cold works, but the side walls roll quite a bit. At this point I think my next mod will be square 18" track wheels/tires. Mostly because in the long run it will save money not killing my street tires and eventually I'll be out driving the 4s. Might do camber plates at the same time.

I don't really feel like the stock suspension is holding me back so I don't see coilovers in my future anytime soon. Track tires and more front camber i think will last me a while and still have a streetable car.

[tux2005]

Fade with the stock pads isn't likely to be an entirely on/off type event but for most drivers and most tracks you really don't want to stick with stock pads or fluids.

18" track wheels with some extreme performance tires rather than max performance summer tires will be a nice improvement. I like the Hankook RS-4s for HPDEs, they are quick enough but last a long time, they might be a little more expensive but their longer life usually makes the cost work out better. You'll usually end up with a stiffer sidewall which will roll over less but getting camber is the way to extending tire life.

You can definitely get a lot out of this car with the stock suspension, I've stayed with the stock setup other than Vorshlag camber plates for 5 years and progressed from novice to running solo with my local BMWCCA chapter. That's usually been 8-14 days per year. Keep in mind the camber plates are likely to need changing or some swapping if you do switch to coilovers in the future. Camber plates will make the car slightly less enjoyable on the street, running with more camber will make driving on some rough roads more effort and introduce some noise but I much rather put up with that than replacing tires as frequently.

[///393]

I find the TC Kline Racing coilovers more civil on the street than the stock setup including the camber plates.

I’m OCD about NVH. The car is a better street car imo having swapped out the factory bits. YMMV

The most noticeable change was moving to -2* camber which feels different on the street but you get used to it. Turn in feels great, and you eventually just get used to the mild tram lining it adds.