[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by M2guru

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=647b...90c6ae6bddb9cb

It includes a long pause while I switched from driver to passenger with fellow instructor. Here is a video of that log:

Someday I'll merge the two (video and log/data) when I get enough time.

So I'm watching this now - is the car ok?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Wish there were some Stg 2/2+ 4th gear logs, as that’s where we’ll start to get decent heat needing to shed.

That's going to be hard - but you can get a general idea how a core performs based on the information you have now.
I told Pal the ER should outcool the CSF - based on the logs shared here, it's about 10F cooler than the CSF in the same temps (I know, different cars, different tracks, different days)

We're able to deduce that based on the information given. So if it works on another car, there isn't a reason it shouldn't work on yours. That said, your turbo is more efficient, so you should be generating less heat anyhow.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

That's going to be hard - but you can get a general idea how a core performs based on the information you have now.
I told Pal the ER should outcool the CSF - based on the logs shared here, it's about 10F cooler than the CSF in the same temps (I know, different cars, different tracks, different days)

We're able to deduce that based on the information given. So if it works on another car, there isn't a reason it shouldn't work on yours. That said, your turbo is more efficient, so you should be generating less heat anyhow.

So, a few variables that aren’t being taken into account bn the cars above:

Track layout- This has a huge effect on if you’ll see temp issues or not. Longer straights and more hard braking zones (vs more flowy tracks), will generate more heat with less opportunity for airflow to shed it.

Tune- Pal is either running no tune or Level 1. 15psi is very stock like for boost on the M2.

Turbo- A more efficient turbo only generates less heat at a similar tune level.

I’m generally on large, fast, hard braking tracks, am running a pretty high state of tune for the OG M2, and am using the turbo more than the OTS tunes. That’s three strikes against my setup.

I also know an M2 guy that runs similar tracks as I do with the CSF radiator & oil cooler, ER IC, Stg 2 93, and has coolant temp issues. So, moving to the ER def won’t be a fix for my situ.

As for ducting, the Evo3 requires all ducting to be removed for it to fit. Prob not the best thing for getting air to the right places.

Overall, I think the best thing I can do is get an IC with the least amount of frontal area that has just enough cooling capacity to get by, add the stock ducting back in, and see what IATs and cooling temps look like. Then, we’ll have two potential outcomes:

1. If IATs are high and coolant temps are good, add simple non-tune based water injection.

2. If engine temps are still too high, lower on track power levels bc there’s no way to add more oil & coolant cooling capacity without major custom work. I lowered power with the Evo3 and still had coolant temp issues on hot days, which leads me to believe it’s all about getting maximum airflow to the radiator and having an IC that does its job just “good enough”.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by ZM2

So, a few variables that aren’t being taken into account bn the cars above:

Track layout- This has a huge effect on if you’ll see temp issues or not. Longer straights and more hard braking zones (vs more flowy tracks), will generate more heat with less opportunity for airflow to shed it.

Tune- Pal is either running no tune or Level 1. 15psi is very stock like for boost on the M2.

Turbo- A more efficient turbo only generates less heat at a similar tune level.

I’m generally on large, fast, hard braking tracks, am running a pretty high state of tune for the OG M2, and am using the turbo more than the OTS tunes. That’s three strikes against my setup.

I also know an M2 guy that runs similar tracks as I do with the CSF radiator & oil cooler, ER IC, Stg 2 93, and has coolant temp issues. So, moving to the ER def won’t be a fix for my situ.

As for ducting, the Evo3 requires all ducting to be removed for it to fit. Prob not the best thing for getting air to the right places.

Overall, I think the best thing I can do is get an IC with the least amount of frontal area that has just enough cooling capacity to get by, add the stock ducting back in, and see what IATs and cooling temps look like. Then, we’ll have two potential outcomes:

1. If IATs are high and coolant temps are good, add simple non-tune based water injection.

2. If engine temps are still too high, lower on track power levels bc there’s no way to add more oil & coolant cooling capacity without major custom work. I lowered power with the Evo3 and still had coolant temp issues on hot days, which leads me to believe it’s all about getting maximum airflow to the radiator and having an IC that does its job just “good enough”.

What tune/boost are you running? the VRSF competition might be "good enough" and IIRC it is shorter than the race options. If the race options are shorter than the evo3 you could try those first.

Also have you tried flash options to lower coolant target temps? It probably wont do anything if your issue is exceeding cooling system capacity, but curious if you experimented with them.

Similarly, have you tried something like the lower oil temp thermostat? If coolant temps are fighting stock oil temps that could help

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

What tune/boost are you running? the VRSF competition might be "good enough" and IIRC it is shorter than the race options. If the race options are shorter than the evo3 you could try those first.

Also have you tried flash options to lower coolant target temps? It probably wont do anything if your issue is exceeding cooling system capacity, but curious if you experimented with them.

Similarly, have you tried something like the lower oil temp thermostat? If coolant temps are fighting stock oil temps that could help

I’m running a BM3 Stg 2++ Multimap that Halim gave me: https://bootmod3.net/log?id=647b40aac090c6aa737bb893 A little higher boost than the OTS, but not extreme, and can still select 93 & flat torque maps while running.

The Race options are shorter than the Evo3, but as I mentioned, my buddy with an ER and Stg 2 93 still has coolant temp issues on hot days that seems airflow related.

I do run BM3 MaxCool on track.

A lower oil temp thermostat wouldn’t fix the airflow/system capacity issue. It would just buy a little more time (1-2-laps?) before engine temps get too high. I’m essentially achieving the same by running BM3 MaxCool and running in Sport/DSC off settings.

Oil temps on my car will get up to 270F as the heat from my cooling system cascades over onto the oil system via the coolant/oil cross flow exchanger.

I definitely didn’t want to build another version of my thread https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...hlight=Extreme
in this one, but with all the data I have it seems very likely it’s an IC/radiator airflow issue, so I wanted to focus on that here and mention my experiences to date while folks are looking for certain IC’s for their track setups.

Bottom line there are always trade offs to certain upgrades (more power, stickier tires, etc.) that don’t get exposed until a car is pushed hard on track in the summer.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I’m running a BM3 Stg 2++ Multimap that Halim gave me: https://bootmod3.net/log?id=647b40aac090c6aa737bb893 A little higher boost than the OTS, but not extreme, and can still select 93 & flat torque maps while running.

The Race options are shorter than the VRSF Comp, but as I mentioned, my buddy with an ER and Stg 2 93 still has coolant temp issues on hot days that seems airflow related.

I do run BM3 MaxCool on track.

A lower oil temp thermostat wouldn’t fix the airflow/system capacity issue. It would just buy a little more time (1-2-laps?) before engine temps get too high. I’m essentially achieving the same by running BM3 MaxCool and running in Sport/DSC off settings.

Oil temps on my car will get up to 270F as the heat from my cooling system cascades over onto the oil system via the coolant/oil cross flow exchanger.

I definitely didn’t want to build another version of my thread https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...hlight=Extreme
in this one, but with all the data I have it seems very likely it’s an IC/radiator airflow issue, so I wanted to focus on that here and mention my experiences to date while folks are looking for certain IC’s for their track setups.

Bottom line there are always trade offs to certain upgrades (more power, stickier tires, etc.) that don’t get exposed until a car is pushed hard on track in the summer.

I think at those boost levels (upper teens) a VRSF comp might be enough if you are keeping the speeds up on track. It's probably the best IC if your key metric is IC cooling capacity vs IC height (or more generally, most "dense" IC package in terms of IC dimensions). The race is taller than the comp and possibly thicker as well (cant remember offhand), which would of course restrict airflow more. Going competition IC with all OEM ducting might be the next logical step.

Understood RE oil, didnt realize you were exceeding oil cooling capacity as well - in that case yeah, lower thermostat wont do anything except make the starting point a little lower.

I'll post in your other thread so as to keep this one IC focused.

[AmuroRay]

I’m starting toe believe the cooling issue isn’t an intercooler issue - it’s an oil cooler issue.

I’ve seen this issue before - it’s actually the oil that’s heating the coolant. I think the VRSF Race is the best choices but going with a smaller frontal area isn’t going to help.

Check the cars above. PAL reaches higher maximum speeds (130mph) and again, never reaches the peaks the CSF and in fact has lower lows (iats drop into the 11x vs the CSF which stays over 12xF in each session) PALs car also is pushing 16psi throughout multiple areas and above 13 near partial throttle.

Again - I’ve been watching the videos - the ER car’s coolant temps are in line with the CSF car as well. So it’s offering better cooling, lower weight, it’s achieving higher maximum speeds and still keeping everything else in range of the shorter core.

The CSF and VRSF COMP are the same height. The only difference between the Comp and Race is the total height.

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

So I'm watching this now - is the car ok?

Thanks for asking! It is...$1500 later for new hub/bearing, rim, rotor, tire, studs. Switch brands of studs so we'll see how long they last. So far so good - had an event yesterday and no wheels fell off. :-)

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Wish there were some Stg 2/2+ 4th gear logs, as that’s where we’ll start to get decent heat needing to shed.

My log that I posted above has 4th and 5th gear pulls with Stage 2+ (93 octane). I got logs yesterday, too, of Stage 2 (91 octane) that I'll share in a day or two.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I’m starting toe believe the cooling issue isn’t an intercooler issue - it’s an oil cooler issue.

I’ve seen this issue before - it’s actually the oil that’s heating the coolant. I think the VRSF Race is the best choices but going with a smaller frontal area isn’t going to help.

Check the cars above. PAL reaches higher maximum speeds (130mph) and again, never reaches the peaks the CSF and in fact has lower lows (iats drop into the 11x vs the CSF which stays over 12xF in each session) PALs car also is pushing 16psi throughout multiple areas and above 13 near partial throttle.

Again - I’ve been watching the videos - the ER car’s coolant temps are in line with the CSF car as well. So it’s offering better cooling, lower weight, it’s achieving higher maximum speeds and still keeping everything else in range of the shorter core.

The CSF and VRSF COMP are the same height. The only difference between the Comp and Race is the total height.

Still think we're comparing apples/oranges on power bn M2guru and pal. M2 stock/Stg 1 tunes (that it looks like Pal is running) will hit 16psi on overboost and/or certain conditions. Stg 2/2+ tunes are a decent bit more boost and power than that, and when the extra power/heat & cooling temp issues begin. In M2guru's log, he's running Stg 2+ 93 (Mapslot 3 in the Stg 2+ Multimap), and is hitting 18psi on overboost and 16.9psi under load.

The higher tune level for M2guru is why I mentioned in the beginning that he may very well run into coolant temp issues by switching from the CSF to the ER IC (even tho IATs would be better under control), b/c of higher cooling demand and potentially more restricted air flow to the radiator bc of the larger IC. He's already hitting 235F coolant temps (the car will pull power at 242F coolant) in his log.

Granted more cooling mods may bring coolant/oil temps down, but as I've mentioned, my buddy that runs Stg 2 93 with the CSF cooling pack and ER IC has coolant temp issues on hot days. The thought is what I've been saying--larger IC + less clean air to the radiator = coolant temp issues.

My issue could be oil temp/cooler related. F87source and I have had many side conversations about this situ. I'll follow up regarding on my N55 cooling thread: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...hlight=Extreme

[pal]

Great discussion, and it’s clear that there are many variables at play to get to a conclusive outcome. That being said, here’s some more info on my car setup:

Dinan Stage 1 tune (harness)
ER intercooler
ER charge pipe
Akra 300 cell downpipe
Akra catback exhaust
K&N panel filter in airbox

Here is a dyno comparison of my car (Dinantronics car), and two of my buddies’ M2’s with CSF intercoolers - one of them is stock tune and the other is VF Stage 2. Both have high flow downpipes too.

https://media.fotki.com/2v2euYjnGxu6LVA.png


And some anecdotal information. I was at THill a while ago on stock tune and 100°F+ ambient conditions and recall my peak IATs being around 126°F.

[M2guru]

For the first two year of my car's life, the oil cooler got a bit beat up. The fins are not straight after snow, sand, etc from MN roads - that has got to affect cooling very negatively as air can no longer easily make it through. I no longer drive it on the road much (and no longer in winter) and I have added guards for junk (e.g., track rubber) up front. I think my winter downtime mods this year will be oil and coolant related.

[M2guru]

Stage 2 91 octane (used 93 octane fuel)
Note the ambient temps at or near 86 degrees. Humidity was high, too.
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=64a4...729bb107d77f83

Best time at the track was 1:41.5. A month ago on Stage 2+ with 93 octane, it was 1:39.8.

[pal]

Your oil and coolant temps in that chart looks nominal to me. Going back to your original question, you asked about a “efficient” intercooler. Is there some metric you want to make better or are you having a drivability issue? Or both perhaps?

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by pal

Your oil and coolant temps in that chart looks nominal to me. Going back to your original question, you asked about a “efficient” intercooler. Is there some metric you want to make better or are you having a drivability issue? Or both perhaps?

Overall, I was looking to have the conversation that resulted from my thread. I would like to see lower IATs than what I have to reduce potential issues and increase power. Right now, I am considering the ER intercooler (though I think that won't help much based on other's experience), upgrading the cooling systems' capacities (coolant and oil), and looking at airflow up front (including air routing, contact/distance between the intercooler & radiator and possibly hood vents and splitter).

I am still learning how to read the logs to determine what the car is doing based on IAT, coolant and oil temps (e.g., reducing timing or boost).

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Overall, I was looking to have the conversation that resulted from my thread. I would like to see lower IATs than what I have to reduce potential issues and increase power. Right now, I am considering the ER intercooler (though I think that won't help much based on other's experience), upgrading the cooling systems' capacities (coolant and oil), and looking at airflow up front (including air routing, contact/distance between the intercooler & radiator and possibly hood vents and splitter).

I am still learning how to read the logs to determine what the car is doing based on IAT, coolant and oil temps (e.g., reducing timing or boost).

I recommended the ER intercooler to PAL for his specific circumstance - he wanted the lowest weight and best performance, which was the ER.

The VRSF and MAD Race intercoolers are only about 5lbs more than your CSF and will outcool basically anything else. I've gotten as close as 3F over ambient with my intercooler on pulls.

The comments here about the intercooler blocking the radiator also don't hold up. PAL is hitting about the same PSI as you and higher MPH with Sessions just as long (if not longer)

M2Guru observations:
Short shifts under 6000RPM often - I counted about 13 time at 6000RPM or over
Max engine Speed is around 6500RPM
About 1:55 seconds in, IATs reach 130F
IATs reach a maximum of 140F
IATs never drop below 121F
Maximum speed 128MPH
Coolant temps 225
Maximum oil temp 245F

Run two
Short shifts OVER 6000RPM often - I counted about I think 20 times at 6000RPM or over (I was interrupted while I was counting)
Max engine Speed is around 6800RPM
6:480 (weird way to track time?) about 1.5 mins in the car hits 131F
IATs reach a maximum of 148F
IATs never drop below 119F
Maximum speed 126MPH
Coolant temps 235
Maximum oil temp 258F

PAL observations:
Shifts over 6000RPM - First lap I counted 5 times I believe X 4 laps - that's 20 times?
Max engine speed is around 6800RPM
Maximum speed is 127mph (Lap 3?)
IATs reach a maximum of 134.6F
IATs get as low as 116 - but it's more common to see 118F
Maximum coolant temps 228F
Oil temp not recorded


If the frontal area is impacting radiator flow (and I don't think it is) I would expect there to be a steady increase in the Coolant temps, and there is not. Actually, often times the temps would decrease during the lap - and this is despite having 2 back to back 100mph+ straightaways. PAL is driving about as aggressively as driver 2 based on his shift points and speeds, and his intercooler does shed heat more efficiently. It should be noted M2Guru's car pushes more boost - however car 1 does have about 1-1.5PSI advantage at around 6000RPM where Driver 1 is consistently shifts at.

If OP is looking for a better intercooler, the ER is an upgrade but not by a huge margin - a race core would be better. They will be the same height as the ER, and have similar depth in front of the radiator (3") and more thermal capacity so they'll take longer to heat up.

[ZM2]

There’s 50whp difference bn these two cars/tunes. But sure, M2guru bolt on a bigger/taller IC, hit the longer track version, record the data, and let’s see how it goes.

I’m sure AmuroRay log interpretation is spot on.

[pal]

Originally Posted by ZM2

There’s 50whp difference bn these two cars/tunes. But sure, M2guru bolt on a bigger/taller IC, hit the longer track version, record the data, and let’s see how it goes.

How did you get to 50whp? I’m at around 365whp (SAE corrected on a Dynojet), a Stage 2 car is at 378whp on the same dyno and same day. Is M2guru running close to 420whp?

[ZM2]

BM3 Stg 2+ 93 is 410whp. We’ll call it a 45whp difference.

I don’t mean to sound like a dick in all this, but me and several m2 track guys I know have been there done this years ago.

When you add decent power to the OG and drive it hard on a fast track in >80F ambient, either IATs go to the moon and the car pulls power to prevent detonation or you put a larger IC on and coolant temps will overheat.

I’ve said my piece, including creating a long separate thread about this, but hopefully it works out differently for you all.

[pal]

Originally Posted by ZM2

BM3 Stg 2+ 93 is 410whp. We’ll call it a 45whp difference.

I don’t mean to sound like a dick in all this, but me and several m2 track guys I know have been there done this years ago.

When you add decent power to the OG and drive it hard on a fast track in >80F ambient, either IATs go to the moon and the car pulls power to prevent detonation or you put a larger IC on and coolant temps will overheat.

I’ve said my piece, including creating a long separate thread about this, but hopefully it works out differently for you all.

No offense ZM2. Just discussing. One of the reasons I’ve not installed the Dinan hybrid turbo and tune, is from concerns with heat. As it sits, car is a ton of fun and fairly quick and I am still finding time.

[AmuroRay]

I was searching up about oil cooling - and I found a simpler solution that may work - an oil thermostat. It lowers the thermostat about 25F or more giving substantially more headroom.

I've been reading about the Mosselman unit all morning.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I was searching up about oil cooling - and I found a simpler solution that may work - an oil thermostat. It lowers the thermostat about 25F or more giving substantially more headroom.

I've been reading about the Mosselman unit all morning.

I raised this above. But if you are operating at the limit of the cooling system capacity, a lower t-stat will only buy you a little time. You will just be starting at a slightly lower temp but it doesnt add any cooling capacity.