[M2guru]

Looking to share information about intercoolers for road course (HPDE) application.

The car: 2018 M2. Engine mods include: BM3 Stage 2, CSF Intercooler, Fabspeed high-flow cat, Dorch Stage 1 HPFP

I recently got BM3 and datalogged with it for the first time at the track. Ambient temps were 80 degrees (am)-90 degrees (pm). During a 25 min session the max readings were:

• IAT - 134
• Oil - 251 (during the 134 IAT oil was at 244)
• Coolant - 226 (during the 134 IAT coolant was at 225)
• MAP - 20.4 (during the 134 IAT boost was at 16ish)

While the IAT was 134, I had timing from .7 to 6.5. Looking to understand if someone has a better intercooler and if the extra cost is worth the $. I am hoping that others have numbers/data to put behind their opinions. Thanks in advance!

[E90convert]

Thanks for sharing data! I am interested to responses from more track experienced M2 owners. My car is stock power and I'm seeing >160F IAT at the end of some sessions.My oil temps are a bit lower in the 220-230 range though. I definitely need an intercooler before adding anymore power.

[ZM2]

The problem on the OG is the larger the IC to help with IATs, the less clean air that will make it to the radiator and coolant temps will increase (want to keep under 240F).

There’s a balance, and I’m not quite sure which is the best IC to help with IATs while keeping as much air on the radiator as possible.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1525790

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by ZM2

The problem on the OG is the larger the IC to help with IATs, the less clean air that will make it to the radiator and coolant temps will increase (want to keep under 240F).

There’s a balance, and I’m not quite sure which is the best IC to help with IATs while keeping as much air on the radiator as possible.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1525790

I thought the same thing originally. It doesn’t seem like that is much of a problem though. OP coolant temps are about the same as when I was getting with a stock car.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by E90convert

I thought the same thing originally. It doesn’t seem like that is much of a problem though. OP coolant temps are about the same as when I was getting with a stock car.

He’s not driving the car hard enough.

Seriously tho, way back in 2017 when I was just Dinan stage 1 with the Dinan and Evo2 IC’s, I could get coolant temps >240F on hot summer days when I was pushing hard. It’s very much a real thing as many experienced OG track guys can attest to. If the OP puts in an IC that blocks more air than the CSF, coolant and oil temps will definitely go up and the car will pull power on hot days, negating the benefit of lower IATs.

It seems the best option would be the most dense IC with the least amount of frontal area that has more heat capacity than the CSF. Problem is, there’s hardly any comparative track data on all our IC options that is looking at the whole picture—IAT, coolant, and oil temps. Just people doing street pulls and only looking at IATs. And, an IC of that type prob adds some on/off throttle lag on the street.

I’m kind of contemplating going with a small IC and add a simple non tune dependent water/meth setup to keep IATs in control while giving as much air to the radiator.

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by ZM2

If the OP puts in an IC that blocks more air than the CSF, coolant and oil temps will definitely go up and the car will pull power on hot days, negating the benefit of lower IATs.

It seems the best option would be the most dense IC with the least amount of frontal area that has more heat capacity than the CSF. Problem is, there’s hardly any comparative track data on all our IC options that is looking at the whole picture—IAT, coolant, and oil temps. Just people doing street pulls and only looking at IATs. And, an IC of that type prob adds some on/off throttle lag on the street.

In this regard, does Dinan make the most sense then? Same height has the stock so it doesn’t block the radiator. Yet the dual core for capacity.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by E90convert

In this regard, does Dinan make the most sense then? Same height has the stock so it doesn’t block the radiator. Yet the dual core for capacity.

I don’t think so bc air that passes thru the first Dinan core goes beneath the car by cutting a hole in the undertray, so there’s less air getting to the radiator (even if it’s “dirty” air).

The Dinan IC stinks for the track. Even my Evo2 out performed it, and it’d still see IAT’s 60F above ambient on the Stg 2 E30 map.

The Evo3 keeps IATs 25F above ambient even with my 480whp setup, but still need more air to the radiator on hot summer days.

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by ZM2

He’s not driving the car hard enough.

Take a look and then let me know if I am not driving hard enough ;-)

Don't miss me catching the back end on a 120mph corner.

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Take a look and then let me know if I am not driving hard enough ;-)

Don't miss me catching the back end on a 120mph corner.

I watched the first few minutes. Nice driving. Smooth inputs! Kicked it out trying to get passed that E36!

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Take a look and then let me know if I am not driving hard enough ;-)

Don't miss me catching the back end on a 120mph corner.

What tires are you running? That’s a fairly flowing track.

The cooling issues are worse at tracks where you hit 130-150mph and have hard braking zones and grippy tires.

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by ZM2

What tires are you running? That’s a fairly flowing track.

The cooling issues are worse at tracks where you hit 130-150mph and have hard braking zones and grippy tires.

Takeoff Perrellis - 265s on 18x10s square.

I'll be on the long version of this course in July with a mile-long, 150mph straight and will get more data to share then.

[pal]

I saw similar numbers as M2guru a couple weeks ago in 82°F-92°F ambient conditions at Thunderhill Raceway in CA. I log IAT, ECT, MAP, PPS etc. via AiM Solo2 DL through OBD and that is overlaid in the video below (4 fast laps) as well.

ZM2, I am running the Evolution Racewerks intercooler. One of the reasons I picked this over the stepped ones out there is to keep an air gap to the rad. I have no idea if it makes a difference or not, but feels like it should not hurt.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by pal

I saw similar numbers as M2guru a couple weeks ago in 82°F-92°F ambient conditions at Thunderhill Raceway in CA. I log IAT, ECT, MAP, PPS etc. via AiM Solo2 DL through OBD and that is overlaid in the video below (4 fast laps) as well.

ZM2, I am running the Evolution Racewerks intercooler. One of the reasons I picked this over the stepped ones out there is to keep an air gap to the rad. I have no idea if it makes a difference or not, but feels like it should not hurt.

Are you tuned?

A buddy of mine runs the ER and Stg 2 93 OTS maps and has coolant temps issues on hot track days.

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by pal

I saw similar numbers as M2guru a couple weeks ago in 82°F-92°F ambient conditions at Thunderhill Raceway in CA. I log IAT, ECT, MAP, PPS etc. via AiM Solo2 DL through OBD and that is overlaid in the video below (4 fast laps) as well.

ZM2, I am running the Evolution Racewerks intercooler.

Good to know about the ER intercooler - I was wondering if that would be a good upgrade or not and now I am thinking that it won't make much of a difference.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by pal

I saw similar numbers as M2guru a couple weeks ago in 82°F-92°F ambient conditions at Thunderhill Raceway in CA. I log IAT, ECT, MAP, PPS etc. via AiM Solo2 DL through OBD and that is overlaid in the video below (4 fast laps) as well.

ZM2, I am running the Evolution Racewerks intercooler. One of the reasons I picked this over the stepped ones out there is to keep an air gap to the rad. I have no idea if it makes a difference or not, but feels like it should not hurt.

First - great driving
Second - what mods? You said your car was stock when you installed the intercooler, now it's pushing 15lbs of boost - I assume stage 2?

Also, I'm interested to see the difference between the ER vs the CFS. The ER is a lighter package and taller - so it SHOULD cool better while being lighter.
However, your logs show that it's hitting the same peaks as OP is - I'd be interested in seeing both of your logs

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Also, I'm interested to see the difference between the ER vs the CFS. The ER is a lighter package and taller - so it SHOULD cool better while being lighter.
However, your logs show that it's hitting the same peaks as OP is - I'd be interested in seeing both of your logs

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=647b...90c6ae6bddb9cb

It includes a long pause while I switched from driver to passenger with fellow instructor. Here is a video of that log:

Someday I'll merge the two (video and log/data) when I get enough time.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

He’s not driving the car hard enough.

Seriously tho, way back in 2017 when I was just Dinan stage 1 with the Dinan and Evo2 IC’s, I could get coolant temps >240F on hot summer days when I was pushing hard. It’s very much a real thing as many experienced OG track guys can attest to. If the OP puts in an IC that blocks more air than the CSF, coolant and oil temps will definitely go up and the car will pull power on hot days, negating the benefit of lower IATs.

It seems the best option would be the most dense IC with the least amount of frontal area that has more heat capacity than the CSF. Problem is, there’s hardly any comparative track data on all our IC options that is looking at the whole picture—IAT, coolant, and oil temps. Just people doing street pulls and only looking at IATs. And, an IC of that type prob adds some on/off throttle lag on the street.

I’m kind of contemplating going with a small IC and add a simple non tune dependent water/meth setup to keep IATs in control while giving as much air to the radiator.

I took some time to compare my logs to others - an Evo 1 (IE, small intercooler with low internal restriction) johnung

thejeremyman9 VRSF 5" and Race logs

The VRSF 5" and Race has the same duty cycle per given boost, meaning there is no added "restriction" when going larger. The intake tract is already pressurized when the car is on. I attached Jeremy's VRSF Race Log

My WGDC is lower than his - which I attribute to using an intake (we both have an inlet)

It's also on par or even lower than the Wagner Evo 1 that John is using and I believe he has an inlet and intake like I do.

Check the WGDC at 6000RPM - we are all similar boost levels. Check 4th gear as well.

mine:
https://datazap.me/u/amuroray/milvs-...-33-40&solo=40

Jeremy's:
https://datazap.me/u/thejeremyman9/3...a=2-4-10-17-28

John's:
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8e4

I 100% believe your cooling issue is:
Poor flow from the M2 bumpers
Inefficient cooling from the CSF coolers
Very tall (3" taller!) intercooler

I would start with a shorter intercooler - As I have always recommended, the VRSF Race or MAD Race - and then consider stock or another radiator. From what I remember, your car has run hotter since you've installed them.

You could easily recoup half your costs with selling your old stuff, so it's not like throwing money away either.

Finally - consider cosmetic modifications, but who really wants to cut up their bumper?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I took some time to compare my logs to others - an Evo 1 (IE, small intercooler with low internal restriction) johnung

thejeremyman9 VRSF 5" and Race logs

The VRSF 5" and Race has the same duty cycle per given boost, meaning there is no added "restriction" when going larger. The intake tract is already pressurized when the car is on. I attached Jeremy's VRSF Race Log

My WGDC is lower than his - which I attribute to using an intake (we both have an inlet)

It's also on par or even lower than the Wagner Evo 1 that John is using and I believe he has an inlet and intake like I do.

Check the WGDC at 6000RPM - we are all similar boost levels. Check 4th gear as well.

mine:
https://datazap.me/u/amuroray/milvs-...-33-40&solo=40

Jeremy's:
https://datazap.me/u/thejeremyman9/3...a=2-4-10-17-28

John's:
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8e4

I 100% believe your cooling issue is:
Poor flow from the M2 bumpers
Inefficient cooling from the CSF coolers
Very tall (3" taller!) intercooler

I would start with a shorter intercooler - As I have always recommended, the VRSF Race or MAD Race - and then consider stock or another radiator. From what I remember, your car has run hotter since you've installed them.

You could easily recoup half your costs with selling your old stuff, so it's not like throwing money away either.

Finally - consider cosmetic modifications, but who really wants to [...]

Really excellent post! Thanks for taking the time. To answer your questions…

I have an MST Intake and an MST Turbo Inlet Pipe.

I had a Wagner Competition EVO1 intercooler for a long time, and most recently a PTF/BM3 intercooler. This month that should be replaced by a MAD Race FMIC. I’m anxious to collect some logs to compare the MAD Race to Jeremy’s VRSF Race.

My tune is now the Bootmod3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+. I’m anxious to finally collect logs with that on full E85. My local E85 station has been closed for renovations, making it a long drive for test fuel.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I took some time to compare my logs to others - an Evo 1 (IE, small intercooler with low internal restriction) johnung

thejeremyman9 VRSF 5" and Race logs

The VRSF 5" and Race has the same duty cycle per given boost, meaning there is no added "restriction" when going larger. The intake tract is already pressurized when the car is on. I attached Jeremy's VRSF Race Log

My WGDC is lower than his - which I attribute to using an intake (we both have an inlet)

It's also on par or even lower than the Wagner Evo 1 that John is using and I believe he has an inlet and intake like I do.

Check the WGDC at 6000RPM - we are all similar boost levels. Check 4th gear as well.

mine:
https://datazap.me/u/amuroray/milvs-...-33-40&solo=40

Jeremy's:
https://datazap.me/u/thejeremyman9/3...a=2-4-10-17-28

John's:
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8e4

I 100% believe your cooling issue is:
Poor flow from the M2 bumpers
Inefficient cooling from the CSF coolers
Very tall (3" taller!) intercooler

I would start with a shorter intercooler - As I have always recommended, the VRSF Race or MAD Race - and then consider stock or another radiator. From what I remember, your car has run hotter since you've installed them.

You could easily recoup half your costs with selling your old stuff, so it's not like throwing money away either.

Finally - consider cosmetic modifications, but who really wants to cut up their bumper?

I’ve tried both the CSF and do88 radiators (no difference), and went back to the stock DCT cooler (added M2 CSR larger DCT pan) with minimal coolant temp change, as well.

I’ve been trying to figure out which IC is the smallest & “good enough” for my situation (480whp w/ very hard driving on track). And, bc I run E50 it’s really not a big deal if on track IATs are 40F above ambient.

I know it’s counterintuitive to how people usually pick IC’s, but airflows and temps are a balance with my setup, so are there even smaller ICs that you’d recommend trying for my situ?

I’m guessing VRSF & MAD Race are good picks for most everyone else, but just pondering even more options for my scenario.

EDIT: When I look at the second picture at this link, the 6.5 inch Competition IC looks interesting. I don’t know anything about its performance, though.
https://www.bavarianmagazine.com/pro...i-435i-n20-n55

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I’ve tried both the CSF and do88 radiators (no difference), and went back to the stock DCT cooler (added M2 CSR larger DCT pan) with minimal coolant temp change, as well.

I’ve been trying to figure out which IC is the smallest & “good enough” for my situation (480whp w/ very hard driving on track). And, bc I run E50 it’s really not a big deal if on track IATs are 40F above ambient.

I know it’s counterintuitive to how people usually pick IC’s, but airflows and temps are a balance with my setup, so are there even smaller ICs that you’d recommend trying for my situ?

I’m guessing VRSF & MAD Race are good picks for most everyone else, but just pondering even more options for my scenario.

M2guru has the CSF and pal has the ER - despite the ER being taller by about 2-3" they are recoding the same coolant temps in the same temperatures (around 90F)

If the intercooler's height was having a major impact, I would expect to see the ER's temps continually climb and/or peak higher, and that doesn't seem to be the case.


For the record, the ER is as tall as the VRSF and MAD race.

I checked the ducting on the stock M2 - basically any stepped intercooler will require it to be removed/trimmed - you can see it ducts to the bottom core and then directs some are air to the upper area, which I believe is the radiator. You could possible trim the stock duct so that it has a bigger frontal opening - otherwise most people ditch it all together to get frontal exposure





You'll also note there is an additional duct right above the crash bar, that ducts the air from the grills to the radiator and DCT cooler. On the Evo 3 that is missing and is instead ducted to the intercooler. The person who installed the ER with the high temps could have removed that as well.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

EDIT: When I look at the second picture at this link, the 6.5 inch Competition IC looks interesting. I don’t know anything about its performance, though.
https://www.bavarianmagazine.com/pro...i-435i-n20-n55

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...hlight=lytsout

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...hlight=lytsout

Wish there were some Stg 2/2+ 4th gear logs, as that’s where we’ll start to get decent heat needing to shed.