[chris719]

Most BMWs have underachieved on the lightning lap for the following reasons:

1. It's a power track and BMWs are not usually the most powerful car in their class.
2. Before the AWD M5, BMWs struggle to put the power down because they are RWD and don't use 305+ section width tires like the Americans.
3. BMW can't seem to get the suspension tuning right on the F8x series cars.

The reality is that BMW isn't really out to compete for lap times. They will name cars "competition", but they still want to sell you a daily driver, GTS aside. They don't put the same amount of money into the extremes of performance as their competitors.

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by MrOhnoez

Well at our dealership we had a guy trade in his giulia quadrifoglio that he tracked.
Car had less than 10k miles if I remember correctly.
On it's 3rd engine.

Only third?

He got one of the good ones...

[jhigg85]

Originally Posted by 1mm2

Only third?

He got one of the good ones...

[arudeone]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

VIR is all about power and traction. Nimbleness means very little. That's why a lot big chunky rockets see good lap times there.

4.1 miles in 3 mins. Seems like drag racing all the time...

As someone that drives VIR regularly, and the Grand Course once a year, sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you. Grand is extremely technical and challenging. Of course high horse power cars make up time in straights like anywhere else, but if you can't get around the corners you get caught immediately. As with anything, the cars with the best combinations of attributes get around a track faster. It differs per track, but to call VIR a drag race is hyperbole at its best. Have you driven here? If not, come check it out and see if your opinion holds.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by arudeone

As someone that drives VIR regularly, and the Grand Course once a year, sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you. Grand is extremely technical and challenging. Of course high horse power cars make up time in straights like anywhere else, but if you can't get around the corners you get caught immediately. As with anything, the cars with the best combinations of attributes get around a track faster. It differs per track, but to call VIR a drag race is hyperbole at its best. Have you driven here? If not, come check it out and see if your opinion holds.

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by arudeone

As someone that drives VIR regularly, and the Grand Course once a year, sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you. Grand is extremely technical and challenging. Of course high horse power cars make up time in straights like anywhere else, but if you can't get around the corners you get caught immediately. As with anything, the cars with the best combinations of attributes get around a track faster. It differs per track, but to call VIR a drag race is hyperbole at its best. Have you driven here? If not, come check it out and see if your opinion holds.

All due respect, VIR being "extremely technical and challenging" or not, was not the point, also I was not saying it's easy.

Simply the perception is that horsepower is much more useful there, the reason why heavier and more powerful cars show good lap times more often than we normally see elsewhere.

BTW, there is one local track where I obtained my national competition driver's license (Class B), which is similar to VIR and maybe even more extreme. And a much more "technical and challenging" one, where Toyota AE86, properly set up, outpaces M4C regularly.

[TRZ06]

Repeat after me... "BMW is NOT the Ultimate Driving Machine"

It will take a lot of therapy to counter the marketing brainwashing , but don't lose hope, 3 times a week sessions at a minimum and your tunnel vision will slowly get wider.

[MNoob]

Originally Posted by 6ixSpd

They are attesting to how the car feels subjectively while being pushed on the track, not skid pad numbers. This speaks to the character of the M5 and AMG GT behind the wheel when being spanked.

You missed the entire point of those observations. It was never about their explicit measurements, rather implicit ones.

the m5 definitely feels like a boat. a floaty, wobbly, ocean going cruise liner. as a daily driver it's a great car. I would not want to track it.

[arudeone]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

All due respect, VIR being "extremely technical and challenging" or not, was not the point, also I was not saying it's easy.

Simply the perception is that horsepower is much more useful there, the reason why heavier and more powerful cars show good lap times more often than we normally see elsewhere.

BTW, there is one local track where I obtained my national competition driver's license (Class B), which is similar to VIR and maybe even more extreme. And a much more "technical and challenging" one, where Toyota AE86, properly set up, outpaces M4C regularly.

No worries, but all I can say is I disagree, based on my limited experience. The world moves on.

You are saying "more often than we normally see elsewhere."...so where for example? Watkins Glen? Road Atlanta? Mid-Ohio? Summit Point? PittRace? NJ Lightning? For me, compared to these tracks I don't see it as more favorable.

I'm not familiar with your local track (I assume since you didn't say it's name), so I yield to your experience there. Even at Summit Point Shenandoah, my Miata times will be slower than my M2 or Corvette times.

No big deal...chat room disagreement. If you get a chance to drive VIR maybe you will change your mind, maybe not. Happy to check out your local track if I'm able.

Cheers.

[Fugly M3]

I had a chance to do Advanced M School at VIR this summer. It was awesome. We got to drive the M2C, M4C and M5C around the big track...though not as large as this configuration...We were doing the Full Course, not the Grand Course, so the back side had no "bitch" corner...just kept on straight because we were using the Patriot Course for other activities.

The M5/C is just an absolute, bruising monster; it's incredible what it can do. The M4/C is the best blend if you want something that can cruise on the highway, commute in - as I do, and have a little fun with. The M2C? It's just the best car, and certainly the best BMW, BMW makes. It wouldn't be as comfortable to live with everyday, but on the track it's as close as current BMWs come to feeling like an extension of your body, even if you sort of need to think about going on a diet.

For those wondering where the M3/4C stack up vis-a-vis the standard car...I'd estimate that they would match the M2C or be just ahead...the reason would be not the power bump or suspension tweaks, but the tires. The wider setup (265/285) has me thinking there would be just enough more grip to get it around. I could be wrong, but that's my impression.

[FormulaMMM]

Article is a good read every year, feedback about the various cars worth considering.

A serious exercise in lap times it's not. Especially not the cumulative, year to year data. Some lap times are pretty clearly well short of potential, others hero laps. To be expected in a test involving amateur drivers, different amateur drivers setting the times, and other variable inconsistencies.

Or, take the times as serious, and you can live in a world where the new M5 is a faster track car than an SS 1LE, a 997.2 RS can't quite keep up with the 5,000 lb. Urus, and the new ZR1 leaves the 918 Spyder 3.6 seconds behind.

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by 535i MSport

But when someone eventually takes one around the Nordschleife, it will likely be a Euro version and all the guys in the US will cry "foul"!

But yes, I would be interested to see how it stacks up. Just need to understand which version.

Nurburgring is irrelevant to this category of car. Save it for the track ready rides M, AMG, RS, Porsche, etc. I want street numbers and if they're gonna run OEM miatas and Camrys around VIR, then run the M-Performance car too!

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Nurburgring is irrelevant to this category of car. Save it for the track ready rides M, AMG, RS, Porsche, etc. I want street numbers and if they're gonna run OEM miatas and Camrys around VIR, then run the M-Performance car too!

I beg to differ. For 2 reasons:
1) it’s a good benchmark of performance with lots of elevation changes, slow corners, fast corners, increasing radius, decreasing radius, up hill, down hill etc.
2) I picked M2 so that I can take it to the Nordschleife. And now I’ve done it and it’s great to see what the car can do lap time wise. Gives me a realistic target for myself over the next 2 years on assignment in Germany.

[535i MSport]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Nurburgring is irrelevant to this category of car. Save it for the track ready rides M, AMG, RS, Porsche, etc. I want street numbers and if they're gonna run OEM miatas and Camrys around VIR, then run the M-Performance car too!

I agree that very few will actually drive like that - although I took one of my F10 5 series to the ring a few years ago, albeit it was only a humble 530d SE (with adaptive drive).

I think good handling is important and appreciate being able to compare cars. Handling to me matters more than 0-60, as where I live, the roads have lots of bends.

If a car was half a second slower to 60, but handled better, that would tick more boxes for me, but I know we are all different.

So I don't really care if it's the Ring or VIR where cars are compared, as long as they are compared, as it is useful to know how they hustle. What I am sure we would agree with is that whilst 1970 muscle cars look cool, they were known for lots of power, but not going around corners!

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by 535i MSport

I agree that very few will actually drive like that - although I took one of my F10 5 series to the ring a few years ago, albeit it was only a humble 530d SE (with adaptive drive).

I think good handling is important and appreciate being able to compare cars. Handling to me matters more than 0-60, as where I live, the roads have lots of bends.

If a car was half a second slower to 60, but handled better, that would tick more boxes for me, but I know we are all different.

So I don't really care if it's the Ring or VIR where cars are compared, as long as they are compared, as it is useful to know how they hustle. What I am sure we would agree with is that whilst 1970 muscle cars look cool, they were known for lots of power, but not going around corners!

The fact that quite a few members of this forum can actually post pictures of themselves driving the Green Hell speaks volumes to how many driving enthusiasts there are here. Cheers to that!

He is mine.

[535i MSport]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

The fact that quite a few members of this forum can actually post pictures of themselves driving the Green Hell speaks volumes to how many driving enthusiasts there are here. Cheers to that!

He is mine.

The M2 is looking good! We were there in 2014, so must get back now that I have a better car choice👍

[535i MSport]

Originally Posted by GodfatherNiko

It's not all about lap times, it's about how a car makes you feel. And in that regard, the M2C is #1 in my book.

That's true also - it's how a car makes you feel, - not the M2C being #1, for me at least.

For the moment, the C63S is ticking my boxes. The sound alone is orgasmic....

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by 535i MSport

That's true also - it's how a car makes you feel, - not the M2C being #1, for me at least.

For the moment at least, the C63S is ticking my boxes. The sound alone is orgasmic....

AMG really is making some cool cars at the moment, and they're definitely sneaking into BMW's territory of fast and fun sports cars. I remember when Jason Cammisa did an interview about the newest AMG cars, all he had to say was "when did Mercedes learn to shit all over BMW?" that was really saying something considering he use to be a long time BMW lover and still owns his E30 wagon.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by GodfatherNiko

It's not all about lap times, it's about how a car makes you feel. And in that regard, the M2C is #1 in my book.

To a point, yes. But on the other hand Miata is a great drivers car, yet I wouldn’t want to drive it on the Nordschleife. Fun and fast around a track, that’s where it’s at for me.

[535i MSport]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

AMG really is making some cool cars at the moment, and they're definitely sneaking into BMW's territory of fast and fun sports cars. I remember when Jason Cammisa did an interview about the newest AMG cars, all he had to say was "when did Mercedes learn to shit all over BMW?" that was really saying something considering he use to be a long time BMW lover and still owns his E30 wagon.

The funny thing is, is that I am a BMW fan, prefer the iDrive, layout of controls etc, but they don't do an M3 touring, so it was the C63 S or an RS4 and the V8 and more engaging drive decided it for me.

What I do know is that the new M3 will be great to drive. It just needs to look great too....

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by 535i MSport

The funny thing is, is that I am a BMW fan, prefer the iDrive, layout of controls etc, but they don't do an M3 touring, so it was the C63 S or an RS4 and the V8 and more engaging drive decided it for me.

What I do know is that the new M3 will be great to drive. I just needs to look great too....

Didn't consider the B3 or B5?

[535i MSport]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

Didn't consider the B3 or B5?

I didn't, simply because of cost and a lack of availability, but the latest B3 would be worth a drive. Albeit I wouldn't want to buy new again, as the depreciation on the 535 was eye watering.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...frankfurt-show

Less power than the C63 S, but the same torque at 700Nm, but likely to be lighter, so I would guess at a similar power to weight ratio. Almost sold it to myself there!!