[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

Most performance cars are designed around a certain grip level (bushing sets, spring rates, damper tuning , etc). Throwing stickier tires on a car/chassis not designed for it , can make some cars less stable and unbalance them.

Stickier tires are only 1 item in a large chain of other components to get to the sum of a cars performance levels.

If BMW or Porsche factoried those cars with the PS2 tires, they would have made changes to all the other components in that chain.

As a general rule, I've found the exact opposite over the last 40 years of seeking the stickiest tires whether it be for autocross or track use. I've never experienced a situation where a car became less stable *except* when going in the opposite direction (i.e. going to all-season tires from summer tires). In the last 15 years on E46, E39, E90, and F87 platforms, there is no issue going with the stickiest tires, even using Hoosier A6/A7s, BFG R1S, etc. If anything the cars become more stable and without question much faster on course.

Going in the opposite direction, even within the same "performance group", is a much more likely scenario to create an unstable platform. In a car that has a firm, well-tuned suspension, putting a tire with a lower sidewall spring rate and lower grip tread/compound, usually results in transient instability, for example, that is immediately apparent. 15 years ago on my E46, I was convinced by a close friend that the Toyo T1R were "great" tires, so I replaced the original Michelin Pilot Sports (often called PS1), and the car was immediately unstable in high yaw/large transient conditions. Sloppy on turn-in, trail wagging from apex to track out...just awful. I ripped those off and went with PS2s and was immediately back to wonderful handling car.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by COChris

Then this:
"You get the same steering feedback whether you're driving an M2 Competition in the video-game world of Forza Horizon or in an asphalt reality."
:

Yeah, that's odd. I wrote about the decent feedback and control I experienced on a 1/2 mile skidpad where I spent four hours trying to find some great fault with the retuned EPS -- it's a much improved effort from earlier versions. It does give decent feedback, if you know what you're looking for (which more and more I doubt C&D does in modern times), as you approach the peak of the tractive force vs slip angle curve (incipient loss of grip), and even when you go over the top and start down the other side of the peak. Is it as great as the E90 M3 hydraulic rack in those areas? No. However, it's "acceptable" now where in the past it wasn't.

Having owned the M2C now for over a year, the biggest fault I have found with the steering (compared to my E90 M3), is in a situation where you are at steady state in a corner, loaded up a lot (say 0.6g+ maybe), dry road, and you have to quickly open up the lock and then even faster regain the previous loading. In other words a huge transient situation in the middle of a high cornering load such as you would experience if you were came upon something in the road you have to immediately avoid.

In such a maneuver, the steering seems to kind of go dark on you in the middle of it; feels artificial - when you're applying the reload of cornering force to regain your prior line. The torque loads you get in the steering wheel aren't "normal" during the middle of that unload/reload. It's a very brief, time-wise, event where it just doesn't jive. Hopping into the E90 M3 and doing the same process feels natural and well connected to your brain. If I ran BMW's handling development program, I'd focus my engineers and subjective test drivers specifically on this area of the EPS response.

[5.M0NSTER]

I for one will happily trade my M2 for a GT350. The M2 is a good all around car but it seriously makes me miss the Mustang V8. And it’s just average in driver excitement. I really think Shelby is in a performance league of its own and I’m more than willing to sacrifice a bit of interior material quality to drive a really special machine. So in 2 years when I get back to the States Shelby it is. For now an M2 will do. I’m excited to spend less and get more performance. Ford badge or BMW. To me it doesn’t matter.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

You know, I really do think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head here. It's fun reading reviews, and I've probably watched 30,476 hours of Youtube videos on cars, but in the end I simply NEVER trust what the journalist has to say about the car. Not that they're not TRYING to be objective, but in the end, they're not "playing with their own money."

In economics, there's a very clear understanding that there's "stated preference" (which is just another way to say "lies") and there's "revealed preference" (which is "watch what the person actually does, because you can't fake your actual actions"). Everybody lies. We all lie, whether we know it or not. But, our actions are our actions.

And when you spend your own money on something, that unequivocally reveals your true preferences.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1416313

Judging from that amazing thread "Besides the M2, what other cars are in your garage," revealed preference seems to indicate either: a) you buy the M2 because your garage already has a GT2 RS, a 488 Pista, and a Vantage V12, and this is just another high performance fun car that you had to have, or b) you've gotten to a point in life where you'd previously driven the S2000 and the BRZ, and you can finally afford to move up in performance to an M2.

Revealed preference seems to show that if you can afford the M2, you're buying it because it's a fun performance car. I don't remember seeing any GT350's or Supra's in any of those garages. Lots and lots of Caymans though.

Then again, I suppose if we were to entirely rely on revealed preference when it comes to automotive journalists, we'd have to believe that the Miata is the world's most AMAZING car. Funny. I think journo's universally LOVE the Miata because it's the only remotely sporty, fun car they can afford - in the same way that Chris Harris gets an erection every time he sits in a hot hatch. He's just reliving the wonders of his youth, but I can't imagine that he'd take a Civic Type R over a Ferrari now that he can afford Ferrari's!

if the gt350 wasn't catching on fire or blowing up its engine you'd probably see more in those garages.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by 1mm2

Of course but given the overall dimensions the M3 "feels" like you're driving a living room.

...but weight is weight!

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

...but weight is weight!

...but, but dimension is dimension!

PS...love what you've done with your living room...

[///AVM]

Went with a close friend yesterday to pick up his new Shelby GT 350 6MT. About an hour drive. He traded in his Audi RS 5, and we drove the Shelby back home. My first experience in a Shelby, and with some brief thoughts from the passenger seat. . .

The exhaust sound is AMAZING. Worth the price of admission alone, and nothing with which the M2C can remotely compete. Not surprising, as we have beat the NA versus turbo exhaust sound to death. From the passenger seat, engine similarly impressive. Pulled like a beast, as one might expect, and seemed very similar to the M2C. Honestly, coupled with the acoustic thrill, the Shelby pull was even more exhilarating. . . just goes to confirm why we all bitch and moan about our turbo exhaust acoustics so damn much.

Interior wise, Shelby seats VERY comfortable and sporty. I would say even more so than the M2C. Shelby back seat space completely useless. Ford should just ditch the back seat and make the Shelby a smaller version of itself. Overall, interior ‘simple’ . . . well, frankly, in the realm of ‘cheap.’ Not to rehash prior statements in other threads, but so is the M2C interior. Paying for performance, not luxury. Want both? Well, then we get into the 718 Cayman GTS price-range, and the discussion as to ‘what is better’ takes a swift turn. Porsche does not do ‘cheap’ . . . but I digress.

Since I was not driving, I cannot comment on steering/handling as we drove through some winding roads. From the passenger seat, Shelby seemed well connected to the road with minimal roll. Honestly, the Shelby does not seem nearly as ‘big’ in person – in appearance or ride – as it looks in photos. Ride quality seemed harsher than that of the M2C, which is saying something. M2C steering always a topic of sour discussion. I honestly do not mind the M2C steering, and doubt the Shelby is significantly better, or worse.

More purely subjective aspects – namely, ‘looks’ - are not worth debating. In short, I am not opposed to the appearance of the Shelby . . . but do prefer that of the M2C. Any perspective valid and completely individual, but this is the M2C sub-forum and member preference should be rather apparent.

I went to relative lengths to state the following. . . I realize there are both Ford and BMW loyalists. If one can get past the ‘badge’ on the front of the car and does not find strong preference to the ‘looks’ of one over the other, then I would say deciding between the Shelby and M2C would come down to engine preference. One is naturally aspirated V8, while the other a V6 twin-turbo. If being completely honest, I personally have an extremely hard time getting past the ‘badge.’ If I could, then I must admit the Shelby’s engine and associated exhaust acoustics are breathtaking. . . yes, I am going to say it . . . overall, better than the M2C.

I am not sure what percentage of Shelby and M2C owners ‘track’ their vehicles? Nonetheless, the track seems to be the source of higher views and opinion than offered here from the perspective of someone who draws conclusion based upon spirited daily drives . . . and, occasionally, a ride in the passenger seat. Toward that end, not sure C&D got it ‘wrong,’ but would suggest ‘right’ comes at a slim margin and is dependent upon varied opinion between individual consumers.

Again, the track might bring other objectivities into play that are beyond my own insights and interests. The Shelby and M2C seems to share their production and distribution based upon raw performance. Toward that end, I fully acknowledge that street performance is not comparable to track performance.

///AVM

[Tiss'er]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Went with a close friend yesterday to pick up his new Shelby GT 350 6MT. About an hour drive. He traded in his Audi RS 5, and we drove the Shelby back home. My first experience in a Shelby, and with some brief thoughts from the passenger seat. . .

The exhaust sound is AMAZING. Worth the price of admission alone, and nothing with which the M2C can remotely compete. Not surprising, as we have beat the NA versus turbo exhaust sound to death. From the passenger seat, engine similarly impressive. Pulled like a beast, as one might expect, and seemed very similar to the M2C. Honestly, coupled with the acoustic thrill, the Shelby pull was even more exhilarating. . . just goes to confirm why we all bitch and moan about our turbo exhaust acoustics so damn much.

Interior wise, Shelby seats VERY comfortable and sporty. I would say even more so than the M2C. Shelby back seat space completely useless. Ford should just ditch the back seat and make the Shelby a smaller version of itself. Overall, interior 'simple' . . . well, frankly, in the realm of 'cheap.' Not to rehash prior statements in other threads, but so is the M2C interior. Paying for performance, not luxury. Want both? Well, then we get into the 718 Cayman GTS price-range, and the discussion as to 'what is better' takes a swift turn. Porsche does not do 'cheap' . . . but I digress.

Since I was not driving, I cannot comment on steering/handling as we drove through some winding roads. From the passenger seat, Shelby seemed well connected to the road with minimal roll. Honestly, the Shelby does not seem nearly as 'big' in person – in appearance or ride – as it looks in photos. Ride quality seemed harsher than that of the M2C, which is saying something. M2C steering always a topic of sour discussion. I honestly do not mind the M2C steering, and doubt the Shelby is significantly better, or worse.

More purely subjective aspects – namely, 'looks' - are not worth debating. In short, I am not opposed to the appearance of the Shelby . . . but do prefer that of the M2C. Any perspective valid and completely individual, but this is the M2C sub-forum and member preference should be rather apparent.

I went to relative lengths to state the following. . . I realize there are both Ford and BMW loyalists. If one can get past the 'badge' on the front of the car and does not find strong preference to the 'looks' of one over the other, then I would say deciding between the Shelby and M2C would come down to engine preference. One is naturally aspirated V8, while the other a V6 twin-turbo. If being completely honest, I personally have an extremely hard time getting past the 'badge.' If I could, then I must admit the Shelby's engine and associated exhaust acoustics are breathtaking. . . yes, I am going to say it . . . overall, better than the M2C.

I am not sure what percentage of Shelby and M2C owners 'track' their vehicles? Nonetheless, the track seems to be the source of higher views and opinion than offered here from the perspective of someone who draws conclusion based upon spirited daily drives . . . and, occasionally, a ride in the passenger seat. Toward that end, not sure C&D got it 'wrong,' but would suggest 'right' comes at a slim margin and is dependent upon varied opinion between individual consumers.

Again, the track might bring other objectivities into play that are beyond my own insights and interests. The Shelby and M2C seems to share their production and distribution based upon raw performance. Toward that end, I fully acknowledge that street performance is not comparable to track performance.

I've been looking at the GT350 for a while with a limited amount of interest. I currently have a 2018 M2 which I can't stop driving. However, spending lots of time on the GT forums, Facebook pages, etc. it is hard to ignore the sheer number of engine failures there have been. Thrown rods, metal in the oil filter, main bearings, excessive oil consumption, etc. I try to take these posts with a grain of salt, however there are many owners on their second, third, or even forth motor. One poster on FB picked up his 4th replacement motor and the car died on the trip home. He posted a video of it as he was driving. I felt horrible for the guy. Am I over-reacting, probably. Now it has been stated that Ford updated the 2019 motor, but there are reported failures already.

The N55 in the M2 has been pretty solid and the S55 isn't without fault, but it just seems that the BMW is the better product regardless of sound. Heck, I'm beginning to consider an Alfa Guilia QV. Most consider it be pretty unreliable, but the issues it has doesn't require the motor to be removed.

I think for most of us, longevity of the vehicle comes into play in our decision. I feel confident in the build of BMW these days.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Tiss'er

I've been looking at the GT350 for a while with a limited amount of interest. I currently have a 2018 M2 which I can't stop driving. However, spending lots of time on the GT forums, Facebook pages, etc. it is hard to ignore the sheer number of engine failures there have been. Thrown rods, metal in the oil filter, main bearings, excessive oil consumption, etc. I try to take these posts with a grain of salt, however there are many owners on their second, third, or even forth motor. One poster on FB picked up his 4th replacement motor and the car died on the trip home. He posted a video of it as he was driving. I felt horrible for the guy. Am I over-reacting, probably. Now it has been stated that Ford updated the 2019 motor, but there are reported failures already.

The N55 in the M2 has been pretty solid and the S55 isn't without fault, but it just seems that the BMW is the better product regardless of sound. Heck, I'm beginning to consider an Alfa Guilia QV. Most consider it be pretty unreliable, but the issues it has doesn't require the motor to be removed.

I think for most of us, longevity of the vehicle comes into play in our decision. I feel confident in the build of BMW these days.

Tiss'er

Excellent perspective that certainly doesn't get mentioned in the C&D article.

As you indicate, engine reliability and longevity is a HUGE importance factor.

Just out of curiosity, do the engine problems referenced on the GT forums seem to be the domain of trackers, daily drivers, or both?

///AVM

[Tiss'er]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Tiss'er

Excellent perspective that certainly doesn't get mentioned in the C&D article.

As you indicate, engine reliability and longevity is a HUGE importance factor.

Just out of curiosity, do the engine problems referenced on the GT forums seem to be the domain of trackers, daily drivers, or both?

///AVM

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Tiss'er

Excellent perspective that certainly doesn't get mentioned in the C&D article.

As you indicate, engine reliability and longevity is a HUGE importance factor.

Just out of curiosity, do the engine problems referenced on the GT forums seem to be the domain of trackers, daily drivers, or both?

///AVM

It seems to be both. The GT350R supposedly has a few different internals making them more reliable. It also seems the newer motors are better with less oil consumption issues. The new 2019 motors are supposed to be identical to the GT350R motors.

To add to my above post, I've viewed several new GT350s. All of them have had pretty bad panel alignments, this is nothing new though as it is widely documented. IMO, if a company can't get the things right on the outside of your premium products, how am I to believe the internals that I can't see are in good working order?

I really wish Ford could get their shit together on the manufacturing front.

[Tiss'er]

Originally Posted by Tiss'er

It seems to be both. The GT350R supposedly has a few different internals making them more reliable. It also seems the newer motors are better with less oil consumption issues. The new 2019 motors are supposed to be identical to the GT350R motors.

To add to my above post, I've viewed several new GT350s. All of them have had pretty bad panel alignments, this is nothing new though as it is widely documented. IMO, if a company can't get the things right on the outside of your premium products, how am I to believe the internals that I can't see are in good working order?

I really wish Ford could get their shit together on the manufacturing front.

I did drive a 718 Cayman S this weekend. This is the first time in the car. It is what I thought was my attainable dream car. It handles amazing but didn't really tingle the senses for me like I thought it would. I've always imagined that driving a Cayman would be a very special event. Neither my dad nor I really felt that. Maybe it was because I test drive a Guilia Quadrifoglio just before it. That is a truly special car in my opinion. Hopping in the M2 seems to be the best of both worlds.

I've always thought the Porsche guys coming to a M2 or M2C were nuts. Maybe they aren't.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Tiss'er

I did drive a 718 Cayman S this weekend. This is the first time in the car. It is what I thought was my attainable dream car. It handles amazing but didn't really tingle the senses for me like I thought it would. I've always imagined that driving a Cayman would be a very special event. Neither my dad nor I really felt that. Maybe it was because I test drive a Guilia Quadrifoglio just before it. That is a truly special car in my opinion. Hopping in the M2 seems to be the best of both worlds.

I've always thought the Porsche guys coming to a M2 or M2C were nuts. Maybe they aren't.

Could be, hard to say. I find that it takes time with a car, like a few weeks, to figure out how you really feel about it and discover all its characteristics. Plus, subtle things that feel "wrong" to you at first may not be once you get used to it.

I don't think Porsche is immune to the push for refinement across the industry that has occurred over the past 10 years. I drove a 997.1 C2S with sport suspension and it was pretty raw. I doubt you get the same feeling from anything but a GT3 in the 991/992.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Tiss'er

I've been looking at the GT350 for a while with a limited amount of interest. I currently have a 2018 M2 which I can't stop driving. However, spending lots of time on the GT forums, Facebook pages, etc. it is hard to ignore the sheer number of engine failures there have been. Thrown rods, metal in the oil filter, main bearings, excessive oil consumption, etc. I try to take these posts with a grain of salt, however there are many owners on their second, third, or even forth motor. One poster on FB picked up his 4th replacement motor and the car died on the trip home. He posted a video of it as he was driving. I felt horrible for the guy. Am I over-reacting, probably. Now it has been stated that Ford updated the 2019 motor, but there are reported failures already.

The N55 in the M2 has been pretty solid and the S55 isn't without fault, but it just seems that the BMW is the better product regardless of sound. Heck, I'm beginning to consider an Alfa Guilia QV. Most consider it be pretty unreliable, but the issues it has doesn't require the motor to be removed.

I think for most of us, longevity of the vehicle comes into play in our decision. I feel confident in the build of BMW these days.

I don't think you need to take those posts with a grain of salt because it's well known the engine has issues. Car & Driver had to add a lot of oil to their long term GT350.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...lity-update-3/

And then there's the oil-consumption issue: Over 40,000 miles, we added 21.5 quarts of 5W-50. That's in addition to scheduled oil changes. It's the most we've ever added during a long-term test by a long shot.

I owned a 2012 Mustang GT and it was by far the most problem riddled car I have ever owned going back decades to crap K-cars like Dodge Daytona Turbo Z and other poorly built cars that didn't have near the amount of issues I had in 18 months ownership of a Mustang. You have to take a leap of faith when you purchase anything built in the Flat Rock facility as build quality has always been terrible out of that facility.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

I don't think you need to take those posts with a grain of salt because it's well known the engine has issues. Car & Driver had to add a lot of oil to their long term GT350.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...lity-update-3/



I owned a 2012 Mustang GT and it was by far the most problem riddled car I have ever owned going back decades to crap K-cars like Dodge Daytona Turbo Z and other poorly built cars that didn't have near the amount of issues I had in 18 months ownership of a Mustang. You have to take a leap of faith when you purchase anything built in the Flat Rock facility as build quality has always been terrible out of that facility.

I had the opposite experience with my Flat Rock built 2014 GT. 15 track days, 38k miles and 5 years later the only issue I had was a wheel bearing which Ford replaced under warranty. Motor had no issues and neither did the MT82 tranny everyone complained about. It did eat some oil until the first track day. Than not an ounce more after. I miss that car.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I had the opposite experience with my Flat Rock built 2014 GT. 15 track days, 38k miles and 5 years later the only issue I had was a wheel bearing which Ford replaced under warranty. Motor had no issues and neither did the MT82 tranny everyone complained about. It did eat some oil until the first track day. Than not an ounce more after. I miss that car.

That's 38k miles, you shouldn't have even had to replace a wheel bearing.
Obviously, isolated incidents occur; I'm not saying they are all junk. I don't think 38k trouble-free miles is anything to note in 2019, though.

I think it's pretty obvious from scanning the forums that the general build quality is not up to BMW standards. The amount of paint and body panel defects are pretty sad for a conventional car. There are a TON of paint issues on the Corvette, but those are plastic panels that are porous (stupid design, but it's hard to get right).

I will not argue that Ford put the money where it matters for performance, though.

[808elise]

Originally Posted by TheRealOrosie

Better because you agree with it? Open up a dictionary and study up on the definition of "subjective".

You had to open a dictionary?

[TheRealOrosie]

Originally Posted by 808elise

You had to open a dictionary?

Yes. Yes I did. I had to open the dictionary and learn the definition of "subjective".

God bless the Internet.

[gmazet]

Originally Posted by M3GymNut

You do know that the M2 is relatively the same weight as the M3.

drove both. M2C drives smaller/lighter by a noticeable margin. between wheelbase and how M2C is set up, it's a whole other beast.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by gmazet

drove both. M2C drives smaller/lighter by a noticeable margin. between wheelbase and how M2C is set up, it's a whole other beast.

True. The M2C is shorter, has a shorter wheelbase, narrower track, smaller tires and a different suspension setup. All of these ingredients makes a different tasting soup.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by gmazet

drove both. M2C drives smaller/lighter by a noticeable margin. between wheelbase and how M2C is set up, it's a whole other beast.

The shorter wheelbase certainly does help. It could use a diet (all new BMW's could) but after driving an M2 and M4, it just feels like a lot more time and effort went into the M2. It feels more predictable and more tossable.

[matmanx1]

Originally Posted by Tiss'er

I did drive a 718 Cayman S this weekend. This is the first time in the car. It is what I thought was my attainable dream car. It handles amazing but didn't really tingle the senses for me like I thought it would. I've always imagined that driving a Cayman would be a very special event. Neither my dad nor I really felt that. Maybe it was because I test drive a Guilia Quadrifoglio just before it. That is a truly special car in my opinion. Hopping in the M2 seems to be the best of both worlds.

I've always thought the Porsche guys coming to a M2 or M2C were nuts. Maybe they aren't.

I have no skin in the game here as I don't own any of these cars but am thinking about both a 718 (Cayman would be my preference but a Boxster would be ok to) and an M2C for my next ride. I'm coming from a Macan GTS and while it was being serviced at the dealership this week I had a 2019 718 Boxster PDK equipped base as my loaner car for half a day.

Based on the internet I expected to hate it. A flat 4 in a Porsche? Bleh! It didn't have Sport Chrono or any other performance options and other than a few creature comforts it was a lightly optioned car. And somehow I loved every minute of it.

The chassis had a sweetness to it that was one of the most delightful things I have ever experienced in the car. The steering was the best EPS system I have ever laid hands on. The motor, which I expected to be terrible, was actually pretty entertaining in character and had plenty of torque and shove for such a light car (also helped by the PDK I think).

I got stuck in traffic on the Interstate going to the BMW dealership and even puttering along slowly was really fun. The ride was far, far better than I thought it would be (19" wheels) and the noise and refinement levels were also much better than I thought. Yes, it was louder at speed than my Macan (which is a very quiet car unless it is in Sport +) but it was not too loud to be acceptable for a daily.

Overall, the 718 Boxster felt to me very much like a faster more luxurious Miata (I owned an NC Miata for several years and it remains one of my favorite pure sports cars) and that is high praise coming from me.

I say all that to say that my goal was the BMW dealership and a test drive in an M240i but after getting out of the 718 the M240i felt fairly boring. The sales manager suggested he could get really aggressive with pricing on an M2C so I have an appointment tomorrow to check one of those out and I am extremely interested to find out for myself how I feel about an M2C versus the 718.

The 718 surprised me in a really good way and I am hoping that I will like the M2C just as well. It is the more practical and less expensive car.

[AlpsRider]

The engine in the M2C will run circles around a base 718, IMHO.