[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

I had 2019 718 for three days (loaner). IMHO, on the street - the M2C wins in speed and handling.

+1

I very recently test drove a base 718, which just felt incredibly boring on the road. Then, I test drove a 718 Cayman GTS, which had Sport PASM (so lowered 20mm, stiffer sway bars, etc.) and 21-inch wheels, and in Sport+ it felt as fun / as exciting as my M2C.

So, to get a Cayman that would feel as fun on the road as my M2C, I would need to spend $80k+ (not including tax and fees, etc) on the Cayman GTS or wait until next year for the Cayman T, which even after semi-aggressive discount would still run me something like ~$70k (not including tax and fees, etc). Just couldn't justify spending that kind of money for a 2-seater, to have as much fun as I'm already having in the M2C.

But, then again... Porsche is the halo brand, and there's just something about driving around in a Porsche!

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

+1

I very recently test drove a base 718, which just felt incredibly boring on the road. Then, I test drove a 718 Cayman GTS, which had Sport PASM (so lowered 20mm, stiffer sway bars, etc.) and 21-inch wheels, and in Sport+ it felt as fun / as exciting as my M2C.

So, to get a Cayman that would feel as fun on the road as my M2C, I would need to spend $80k+ (not including tax and fees, etc) on the Cayman GTS or wait until next year for the Cayman T, which even after semi-aggressive discount would still run me something like ~$70k (not including tax and fees, etc). Just couldn't justify spending that kind of money for a 2-seater, to have as much fun as I'm already having in the M2C.

But, then again... Porsche is the halo brand, and there's just something about driving around in a Porsche!

Totally agree!

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

But, then again... Porsche is the halo brand, and there's just something about driving around in a Porsche!

As a famous rapper once said; "Y'all pop the trunk, I pop the hood" - flaunting his wealth by highlighting the subtle differences in his lifestyle.

#ThereIsLevelsToThis

[10"]

Originally Posted by HawaiiShrimp

When I see people driving the modern mustang of any kind (note: new ones, not the classics), I usually laughed behind their backs and said to myself: "What a fucking loser with no taste in cars. With all the cars available, you pick a boat to drive."

Well that's a pretty toxic attitude you have. Don't worry they're probably ridiculing you as well...

[richard in NC]

I just did a weekend at VIR with the M2 Comp. I'll do a whole separate thread. I had no kickback on the brakes at all but did have a little "unsettled rear" feeling at threshold braking levels. I was told that was possibly due to increased toe as the rear got light but at anything less than 10/10 braking from triple digit speeds, they were just fine and lasted the whole weekend.

I also had no problem placing the car or dealing with any lack of steering feel. I could certainly tell what was going on with the tires, despite it not being E92 M3 level of feel...

[csbear]

I do want to add to my previous post about the M2C steering. In no way am I saying it is"bad." Obviously, modern M cars still have top notch steering. But coming from a GT4, I do believe BMW can up their game on that front...not to Porsche GT levels of course, but they can tweak it better to suit enthusiasts while not being so worried about losing sales to your typical poser, tire kicker.

[airborne777]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

+1

I very recently test drove a base 718, which just felt incredibly boring on the road. Then, I test drove a 718 Cayman GTS, which had Sport PASM (so lowered 20mm, stiffer sway bars, etc.) and 21-inch wheels, and in Sport+ it felt as fun / as exciting as my M2C.


But, then again... Porsche is the halo brand, and there's just something about driving around in a Porsche!

You can get PASM,Sports Chronos (gives S,S+ and Individual) + larger wheels on the base as well ..not just the GTS or S or the T.

But you are correct that you are paying a premium for a P car because of the halo factor. This article compares the base 718 versus others who are not base versions. As pointed out earlier, to be fairer, they should have used the 718 S or higher. Porsche is a master of slicing up the spectrum into tiny tiny parts and offering a plethora of options for customization to suck the $ out of a buyer like a vacuum at order time ;-)

[Bumpinjeep]

Based on what they wrote about the brakes on the M2C, I think they got a dud of a car. If I were tracking the car & the brakes basically failed, I would place it last too. We all know the BBK setup is great on the N.A. cars. BMW needs to send them a fully functional car & retest.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by HawaiiShrimp

When I see people driving the modern mustang of any kind (note: new ones, not the classics), I usually laughed behind their backs and said to myself: "What a fucking loser with no taste in cars. With all the cars available, you pick a boat to drive."

Sounds like a comment that would come from someone in high school.

Grow up

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by c1pher

This isn't about a morality. I mean you're pushing 3800lbs around plus driver weight and the engine is up on top of the front wheel suspension so you also have a lot of polar moment of inertia going on that has to be reigned back in.

Also, the GT350 is just a big car. It's longer than an Audi S4 or a Porsche Macan. It's more challenging to position a car that size on a track. I mean it's not impossible and definitely doable, especially if you are very talented, but more challenging nonetheless.

And again tires make a huge difference. If the GT350 didn't have cup tires on, which are one step above actual track tires, it wouldn't have performed nearly as spectacularly. Or look at it the other way around and put cup tires on the other three cars and they smoke the GT350. Read this article where they compare the Stingray against GT350 and they are both wearing Pilot Super Sports. GT350 gets 1.0G compared to the Corvette's 1.05.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...mparison-test/

Reading the four car article, the reviewers seemed to think they should have been able to get more out of the car based on the paper specs, but in the end merely eeked out a victory against a four cylinder car. If that tells you anything it's actually how well engineered the Porsche is. I mean the GT350 has 225 more HP and 150 more torque! The performance delta should be far greater.

You are over simplifying it.

Most performance cars are designed around a certain grip level (bushing sets, spring rates, damper tuning , etc). Throwing stickier tires on a car/chassis not designed for it , can make some cars less stable and unbalance them.

Stickier tires are only 1 item in a large chain of other components to get to the sum of a cars performance levels.

If BMW or Porsche factoried those cars with the PS2 tires, they would have made changes to all the other components in that chain.

[TheRealOrosie]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Sorry, but I have to agree with the GT350 winning this one. Had the R version for two years and zero question, is far more special than anything from BMW. Normally aspirated, FPC engine, unreal exhaust note, far far far more sophisticated suspension vs any M car (GTS included), does NOT handle like a boat (will out handle any M car given the track times). Moved on to a GT3 RS and have to say, the 350 is really more of a competitor to the GT3/RS in terms of uniqueness and outright performance ability. It is an incredible value for what you get and the performance differential makes up for the slightly lower interior quality. The only issue is that some engines were blowing, but the problems with the early builds have been corrected in 2019 with new engine designs and so far, so good.

Slightly lower interior quality? That's a very kind statement. And don't get me started on the exterior quality. I too owned a GT350 for a year and a half, and it was a great car, but the overall quality just lacked big time compared to any M (or non-M) BMW I have ever owned.

Great track car with a sick engine, exhaust and suspension...but seeing as though I never tracked it, it grew old as a daily really quick.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

You are over simplifying it.

Most performance cars are designed around a certain grip level (bushing sets, spring rates, damper tuning , etc). Throwing stickier tires on a car/chassis not designed for it , can make some cars less stable and unbalance them.

Stickier tires are only 1 item in a large chain of other components to get to the sum of a cars performance levels.

If BMW or Porsche factoried those cars with the PS2 tires, they would have made changes to all the other components in that chain.

Agreed.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by TheRealOrosie

Slightly lower interior quality? That's a very kind statement. And don't get me started on the exterior quality. I too owned a GT350 for a year and a half, and it was a great car, but the overall quality just lacked big time compared to any M (or non-M) BMW I have ever owned.

Great track car with a sick engine, exhaust and suspension...but seeing as though I never tracked it, it grew old as a daily really quick.

I can see that. The quality of materials is not as good (but not so bad), and the gaps in dash panels and body panels is much worse in the Ford. And you're right, the car is meant to be a streetable track machine so as a daily there are far better choices.

Originally Posted by c1pher

Agreed.

I just wanted to give you Kudos for being a rational forum user. You argue your point and acknowledge other's points as well. That's kinda rare these days so cheers to you.

[RocketTR]

Originally Posted by 1mm2

To me that's how the S felt, the base not so much. Lag was clear under 2000 rpm.

Okay, I only drove the S myself. Never been in the base model.

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by RocketTR

Okay, I only drove the S myself. Never been in the base model.

The base is a great little car, there's some work involved in extracting it but a blast.

Not sure which Audi you have but the RS3 is also a blast, in a different way but still great. That acceleration is epic...

[HawaiiShrimp]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

Sounds like a comment that would come from someone in high school.

Grow up

No, just someone with better taste than you.

[TheRealOrosie]

Originally Posted by HawaiiShrimp

No, just someone with better taste than you.

Better because you agree with it? Open up a dictionary and study up on the definition of "subjective".

[AlpsRider]

I was expecting the Cayman to elevate my driving enthusiasm to another level. Instead it sounded and felt anemic. The manual was a laggy disappointment. Compared to the M2C, the S model would be the better comparison which comparably equipped is a lot more expensive. I haven't driven the Supra but the other cars in the line up fell off my list quickly for other reasons. Of course track stars may have other criteria but for a fast fun prestigious car the M2C is hard to beat.

[cpippolo]

I only have 800 miles on my new M2C, and owned the previous generation Cayman S (6 Cyl NA engine), which was a great car, but only having one car that has no back seat was an inconvenience. The cars only had 5 points separating them, which is a tiny spread as pointed out by another posting. I am inclined to agree with their assessment of the steering feel, but the seat of the pants feel mostly compensates for that. I don't understand the brake issue at all. My brakes have been strong and consistent...maybe the best I've had in a car and I've had a lot of cars over the years. If you add a few points for the brakes, the spread would have been even tighter. And the usable back seat pretty much ended the debate for me. My car puts a smile on my face every time I get into it, and I haven't even broken it in yet. I have absolutely no regrets.

[COChris]

This really is a poorly put together article. I can't believe how far journalism quality has deteriorated in the last decade. Although I'm not surprised to see C&D show bias against BMW.

Plenty of BS - first being that they trash the steering and brakes but compliment its strong daily driving characteristics. Then at the end he mentions the car is just at home on track as it is on the street. Doesn't make sense.

Then this:
"You get the same steering feedback whether you're driving an M2 Competition in the video-game world of Forza Horizon or in an asphalt reality."
:

[Ramos]

Dinging the brakes on the M2C that they previously praised to the moon on the M2C initial review!! Sure whatever.

Also the M2C is the only practical car that can serve DD duties in this test, while keeping up if not beating the three others in every performance category.

I'll trade some steering feel for daily livability and a back and I'm sure anyone who can't afford a dedicated toy would as well.

M2C is the clear winner by a mile.

[///Mowgli]

Originally Posted by Moflow

I've never driven a Boxster, but I daylied 350Z with a nice hydraulic setup for about 13 years before switching to the M2C and I drive the cars back to back from time to time.

The steering feel in the Z is good enough that just driving around normally, you can really feel all the little bumps and imperfections in quite a bit of detail. If you love driving, just driving normally and feeling everything thats happening with the front tires can actually be its own kind of (mild) fun.

The M2C still provides some feel, you can tell one pavement surface from another and bumps are still transmitted through the wheel to your hands. In addition, when you're actually pushing the car up to 7 or 8 tenths, the wheel weights up really nicely and naturally and though i've only had tiny hints of oversteer, the M2C gives every indication that it will perform with a ton of linearity and predictability when it comes to controlling a slide.

But it doesn't provide that sheer fidelity when it comes to pavement texture thats available in the Z. Hit a bunch of tiny bumps in the Z and it feels just like that. Hit a bunch of tiny bumps in the M2C and it feels like you hit the same bump a bunch of times over and over again.

Hopefully that was helpful, considering i completely ignored half of what you asked about.

Yes that helps. I totally get what you mean.

I've also had the opportunity to drive the M2C on track last Friday (M Town) and your description of the steering is on point. Definitely not a deal breaker for me as I love the car's playful nature. Much better than the M5 and M4!

And it would be my choice over the Boxster S.