[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by Cope

I love how defensive some people get when they hear a civic is faster. I hope I'm not alone when I say ring times have very little to do with my car shopping decisions.

exactly. who cares.....Nurburgring lap times are a terrible indicator of motoring enjoyment.

an E30 M3 Sport Evolution takes 8:52 to lap the ring is likely faaaaar more enjoyable than any car mentioned here by a wide margin.

[W///]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

exactly. who cares.....Nurburgring lap times are a terrible indicator of motoring enjoyment.

an E30 M3 Sport Evolution takes 8:52 to lap the ring is likely faaaaar more enjoyable than any car mentioned here by a wide margin.

EXACTLY, thank you. That would make the S2k and Miatas completely irrelevant I guess.

How many people here are skilled enough to get those Nurburgring lap times anyway?

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by W///

EXACTLY, thank you. That would make the S2k and Miatas completely irrelevant I guess.

How many people here are skilled enough to get those Nurburgring lap times anyway?

Why aren't you on the miata forums then? Why don't you own a miata?

I agree, ring times are over hyped but they are still a factor that is worthy of consideration to get a rough sense of a cars ability. And generally speaking, all else equal I think most people here would prefer a faster car and a faster time. Otherwise, they would be buying miatas.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Why aren't you on the miata forums then? Why don't you own a miata?

I agree, ring times are over hyped but they are still a factor that is worthy of consideration to get a rough sense of a cars ability. And generally speaking, all else equal I think most people here would prefer a faster car and a faster time. Otherwise, they would be buying miatas.

Actually, I did look to add an S2k or a Miata when I was shopping for a car to add to the E92. I ended up with the E36 because the deal was too good to pass up.

Let me ask you this then. If lap times mattered so much, why aren't you getting a GT350? You know it'll pulverize the M2 in terms of lap times while costing less. If that's all that mattered, there's 0 reasons we're all on an M2 forum.

[hangover]

Originally Posted by the_phew

If any Civic owner razzes an M2 owner about their car being faster for half the price, just say "an $8k sport bike is faster than both our cars" and shrug.

I thought the standard bimmer fanboy emotional trumpeted line is "but holding my BMW-badged steering wheel just FEELS better" bla bla bla.

Get the BMW and be happy if you want it. Comparing today's M suvs and lead sleds to the great ones of decades-past will only make you wanna cry. The competition has passed BMW by.

[Big Tuna]

faster or not, good god the civics are ugly.

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by W///

Actually, I did look to add an S2k or a Miata when I was shopping for a car to add to the E92. I ended up with the E36 because the deal was too good to pass up.

Let me ask you this then. If lap times mattered so much, why aren't you getting a GT350? You know it'll pulverize the M2 in terms of lap times while costing less. If that's all that mattered, there's 0 reasons we're all on an M2 forum.

I think we are arguing the same thing at the end of the day- speed isn't everything. But I won't go as far to say that ring times are irrelevant, pointless and stupid. If I could retain the joyful feel or spirit of a Miata in car that does the ring in 7:30 minutes, I would take that one over the car that has the same charactertistics but does it in 8:30.

I also don't see many people claiming that the M4 GTS ring time is irrelevant and pointless. I see a lot of "BMW is back" and "they showed them what an M car car do!".

It still matters.

[WAY]

For all those who go on about Honda's claim of 7:50 at the Nurburgring, please watch this latest EVO deadly rival review. Makes you wonder how "stock" the Civic R was...

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by WAY

For all those who go on about Honda's claim of 7:50 at the Nurburgring, please watch this latest EVO deadly rival review. Makes you wonder how "stock" the Civic R was...

I really am not looking forward to having some Janis fanboy with a beat up civic pester me saying that the civic has a faster ring time

[SGL]

Originally Posted by WAY

For all those who go on about Honda's claim of 7:50 at the Nurburgring, please watch this latest EVO deadly rival review. Makes you wonder how "stock" the Civic R was...

This is my exact frustration when the Civic Type R ring time is mentioned. It has nothing to do with brand or a Civic being faster, hell, I watch the "ring wolf" videos of the Renault Megane RS 275 and fantasize about living in Europe and having a sleeper like that, and if a production Civic Type R went right to the ring and ran a 7:50, that thing would be a beast, and should get all the praise it deserves, but when Honda targets the record and pulls some stuff, adds a cage, puts on some special tires to take the record, it isn't a stock car.

[redux]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

I think we are arguing the same thing at the end of the day- speed isn't everything. But I won't go as far to say that ring times are irrelevant, pointless and stupid. If I could retain the joyful feel or spirit of a Miata in car that does the ring in 7:30 minutes, I would take that one over the car that has the same charactertistics but does it in 8:30.

I also don't see many people claiming that the M4 GTS ring time is irrelevant and pointless. I see a lot of "BMW is back" and "they showed them what an M car car do!".

It still matters.

Ring times are completely irrelevant. It's generally only important to forum jockeys that:

A. Have never been to the ring
B. Have never been to a trackday
C. Can't get anywhere near the limits of their own vehicle
D. Will never purchase the cars in question

A simple change in tires and use of actual production cars would up end the the lap board so badly that we could have another dieselgate on our hands (lapgate if you please). The "BMW is back" and "they showed them what an M car car do!" people will probably also be in the " got a thumb shoved up my ass by a Miata on street tires" club if they ever got a chance to hit the track in a GTS.

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by redux

Ring times are completely irrelevant. It's generally only important to forum jockeys that:

A. Have never been to the ring
B. Have never been to a trackday
C. Can't get anywhere near the limits of their own vehicle
D. Will never purchase the cars in question

A simple change in tires and use of actual production cars would up end the the lap board so badly that we could have another dieselgate on our hands (lapgate if you please). The "BMW is back" and "they showed them what an M car car do!" people will probably also be in the " got a thumb shoved up my ass by a Miata on street tires" club if they ever got a chance to hit the track in a GTS.

I'm very aware that claiming that ring times are completely, utererly, resoundingly, and abso-fucking-lutely pointless is an easy way to appear like one is "in the know" around here but I just don't see things that black and white. Deep down inside everyone would prefer a lower ring time all else equal. Stressing all else equal. Let's agree to disagree.

[kovsky]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

...Deep down inside everyone would prefer a lower ring time all else equal. Stressing all else equal. Let's agree to disagree.

I agree. The ring is amazing and times there are valuable, to me anyway. It's up to each person to take a discerning view of manufacturer claims but I do enjoy comparing these times.

I'm a car enthusiast first and have no exclusivity contract with any one brand. I think it's an amazing time to be a car enthusiast with so many excellent options out there. I would not be surprised if the focus rs is faster around a track then the M2. I think it would be the perfect car the me of 10-15 years ago would have bought. I also think the M2 is the perfect car for me right now.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by redux

Ring times are completely irrelevant. It's generally only important to forum jockeys that:

A. Have never been to the ring
B. Have never been to a trackday
C. Can't get anywhere near the limits of their own vehicle
D. Will never purchase the cars in question

A simple change in tires and use of actual production cars would up end the the lap board so badly that we could have another dieselgate on our hands (lapgate if you please). The "BMW is back" and "they showed them what an M car car do!" people will probably also be in the " got a thumb shoved up my ass by a Miata on street tires" club if they ever got a chance to hit the track in a GTS.

LOL. thank you. yes yes yes.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by ScottGregory

This is my exact frustration when the Civic Type R ring time is mentioned. It has nothing to do with brand or a Civic being faster, hell, I watch the "ring wolf" videos of the Renault Megane RS 275 and fantasize about living in Europe and having a sleeper like that, and if a production Civic Type R went right to the ring and ran a 7:50, that thing would be a beast, and should get all the praise it deserves, but when Honda targets the record and pulls some stuff, adds a cage, puts on some special tires to take the record, it isn't a stock car.

I recently bought a RS 275R and it's not so much of a sleeper when it's covered in decals haha.
It's much slower (on road and track) than my old modified 135i but gets a lot more attention.

Originally Posted by Ummm2

I'm very aware that claiming that ring times are completely, utererly, resoundingly, and abso-fucking-lutely pointless is an easy way to appear like one is "in the know" around here but I just don't see things that black and white. Deep down inside everyone would prefer a lower ring time all else equal. Stressing all else equal. Let's agree to disagree.

I know it's kind of pointless but I still fell for the Nurburgring marketing.

[M2 CSL]

Look, all I'm saying is that generally speaking if I had a choice of 2 cars, I'd take the one with the lower ring time. I'm not talking a few seconds here or there, but just in general. Let's say probably 99/100 I'd take a new car with a ring time that's 20 seconds lower than another that's 20 seconds higher.

It's not because I think I can match the official time myself or anything else completely irrelevant to this discussion that people keep bringing up. It's because there is an extremely high correlation between ring times and performance/drivers cars. I don't know why people are so reluctant to admit this around here? I'm so confused.

I'm so proud of the many who have been to the ring and experienced so many other hardcore track days where they were destroying GTRs in their spec miatas. I don't feel the need to talk about personal experiences that are largely irrelevant.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Look, all I'm saying is that generally speaking if I had a choice of 2 cars, I'd take the one with the lower ring time. I'm not talking a few seconds here or there, but just in general. Let's say probably 99/100 I'd take a new car with a ring time that's 20 seconds lower than another that's 20 seconds higher.

It's not because I think I can match the official time myself or anything else completely irrelevant to this discussion that people keep bringing up. It's because there is an extremely high correlation between ring times and performance/drivers cars. I don't know why people are so reluctant to admit this around here? I'm so confused.

I'm so proud of the many who have been to the ring and experienced so many other hardcore track days where they were destroying GTRs in their spec miatas. I don't feel the need to talk about personal experiences that are largely irrelevant.

A MK1 Lotus Exige does the 'ring at 8:42. A BMW M6 does it in 8:09.

are you telling me the M6 is more of a drivers car than an Exige?? Do you see the stupidity of Ring lap times yet?

I can assure you an Exige is sooooo much better of a driver's car than an M6. I have driven both and there is NO comparison.

Ring times are idiotic.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

A MK1 Lotus Exige does the 'ring at 8:42. A BMW M6 does it in 8:09.

are you telling me the M6 is more of a drivers car than an Exige?? Do you see the stupidity of Ring lap times yet?

I can assure you an Exige is sooooo much better of a driver's car than an M6. I have driven both and there is NO comparison.

Ring times are idiotic.

While I don't disagree, one need only look at GTR sales to determine that some people much prefer outright speed/performance vs. driver feel/involvement.

What is idiotic or relatively useless to you (or I), is paramount to someone else.

Hell, you bought a 1M. You could have had 2 Miatas!

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

A MK1 Lotus Exige does the 'ring at 8:42. A BMW M6 does it in 8:09.

are you telling me the M6 is more of a drivers car than an Exige?? Do you see the stupidity of Ring lap times yet?

I can assure you an Exige is sooooo much better of a driver's car than an M6. I have driven both and there is NO comparison.

Ring times are idiotic.

There will always be outliers in the thousands of vehicles on the road. Lotus, Miata, brz will be the few that come to mind. Look at that same list of ring times you appear to be looking at. If ring times are idiotic, you are saying that you'd be equally happy owning the bottom ten cars on that list versus the top ten? Because times are irrelevant and have no bearing on driving experience?

[M2 CSL]

[QUOTE=PrematureApex;18787367

Hell, you bought a 1M. You could have had 2 Miatas! [/QUOTE]

That's what I find funny. Everyone always cites these purist drivers cars in their arguments but they never own them. Lol.

[hangover]

Miata ? Let me throw up now.

I want a car at least faster than a minivan.

[M2 CSL]

The 1M is absolutely a driver's car. But so is the Miata, and a much cheaper one. This is the exact point I've been trying to make. If one could retain the feel of the Miata, but achieve more speed (aka better lap time) pretty much everyone would opt for the faster car if money wasn't an option. Hence why many people probably bought the 1M over a Miata. So lap times must matter to some degree.

This is my last post I dont know why I care so much!