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      06-26-2017, 02:22 PM   #1
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Tire Management - Suggestions

I continue having issues with front edge wear. Does anyone have advise or know where to get guidance in how to better manage tires? I have not encountered this topic in any performance driving/racing books or even during track day discussions.

I'm looking for advice that's outside of "get camber plates" or "slow down," if possible. I'd like to exhaust driver development before throwing money at the problem.


Corded tire after 4 partial track days (less than 12, 20-minute sessions).
Interesting that it's the left front in a counter-clockwise track. My student had mentioned that the M3/M4 has a cooler in front of the left front tire that increases tire temps as a side affect - anyone with additional info on this?
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      06-26-2017, 02:38 PM   #2
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If you have increased camber to between 2,5 and 3,5 and still get wear as on the enclosed pic I would say it looks very much as the driver being to "enthusiastic". Exactly what you wrote you didn't want to hear :-)

But honestly that type of wear is typical of either getting into the corner to hot, at turn in. Or mid/exit understeer abuse, forcing more steering angle than the tires can cope with at chosen speed.

I would absolutely get an instructor to ride shotgun to help fine tune steering inputs.



PS:
I had similar front tire wear with MPSC2 with factory camber. It dissapeared with 3 degrees camber.
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      06-26-2017, 02:44 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusT View Post
If you have increased camber to between 2,5 and 3,5 and still get wear as on the enclosed pic I would say it looks very much as the driver being to "enthusiastic". Exactly what you wrote you didn't want to hear :-)

But honestly that type of wear is typical of either getting into the corner to hot, at turn in. Or mid/exit understeer abuse, forcing more steering angle than the tires can cope with at chosen speed.

I would absolutely get an instructor to ride shotgun to help fine tune steering inputs.



PS:
I had similar front tire wear with MPSC2 with factory camber. It dissapeared with 3 degrees camber.
Running stock suspension setup, no camber plates. And, I am an instructor That may just be the problem though, keeping up with guys running hoosiers and more track oriented setups.
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      06-26-2017, 02:48 PM   #4
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I don't think camber plates are really "throwing money" at the problem, as they will give you better tire wear and save you money in the long run.

That said the biggest solution is tire choice. I know the MPSS have soft outside shoulders which wear quick so I assume it is the same with the cup 2's. If ultimate time is not a concern try a set of Conti's or other high performance summer tire. If lap time is important maybe try some of the 200 treadwear tires like the Hankook's or others that have decent wear (Bridgestones are fastest on track but wear quick).
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      06-26-2017, 04:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
Running stock suspension setup, no camber plates. And, I am an instructor That may just be the problem though, keeping up with guys running hoosiers and more track oriented setups.
I killed the outside of my front MPSS's after four track days. I have even tire wear after -2.5 deg camber (with plates) and 0 toe. The plates will pay for themselves by letting the tires last longer.
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      06-26-2017, 05:55 PM   #6
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Jesus...cording the outside? I'll definitely be getting camber plates and doing a corner balance before hitting the track
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      06-27-2017, 01:22 AM   #7
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That’s strange wear. Have you asked your shop? Looks like either the tire is rolling weird or maybe rubbing. Info it’s camber, that seems like a crazy amount of different. The rest of the wear on the tire seems pretty normal.
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      06-27-2017, 06:32 AM   #8
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While I am certain some of the wear can be minimized by adjusting how you are driving, there is not much else you can do. Even if you are running 50 PSI hot to make the tire "stand up" you will kill the outsides of the tires - with stock camber. Camber plates are pretty much your only option. Another option would be a square setup with a wider tire, as many have done.

As for a "cooling device", never heard of such a thing, don't believe it either.
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      06-27-2017, 09:05 AM   #9
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Stock camber and MPSC2 doesn't work for anything but relaxed track use. Been there done that. You need more camber or change to a stiffer tire that works with less camber.
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      06-27-2017, 10:57 AM   #10
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You don't want to hear this but get camber plates. That's like saying I want to get 60 MPG on track but want to set track records. Stop burning through $1400 a set tires and get the proper setup for the track.
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      07-04-2017, 03:12 PM   #11
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For what it's worth, I'm also learning the M2 after coming from a mid-engine. I initially found myself over driving the front tires, partially because the M2 is so good at managing mid-corner attitude adjustments and fun to drive. Once I reigned in the enthusiasm and got back to managing weight transfer (like I was still driving a car with only 48% weight on the front wheels), lap times dropped and shoulder wear slowed down.

From the looks of those Cup 2's, I'd guess they're getting more slip angle and heat than they like. My RE-71R have 2x the sessions (usually with a passenger/student for even more weight) driving it for personal best lap times, and still have another day in them. I ended up putting in camber plates, but haven't driven with them yet.

I'm step out and say you might just be doing the right thing by looking to tighten the nut behind the wheel first. Yes, even instructors need to do it...because we're mostly still amateurs too!
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      07-05-2017, 10:02 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimOudin View Post
For what it's worth, I'm also learning the M2 after coming from a mid-engine. I initially found myself over driving the front tires, partially because the M2 is so good at managing mid-corner attitude adjustments and fun to drive. Once I reigned in the enthusiasm and got back to managing weight transfer (like I was still driving a car with only 48% weight on the front wheels), lap times dropped and shoulder wear slowed down.

From the looks of those Cup 2's, I'd guess they're getting more slip angle and heat than they like. My RE-71R have 2x the sessions (usually with a passenger/student for even more weight) driving it for personal best lap times, and still have another day in them. I ended up putting in camber plates, but haven't driven with them yet.

I'm step out and say you might just be doing the right thing by looking to tighten the nut behind the wheel first. Yes, even instructors need to do it...because we're mostly still amateurs too!
Thanks everyone for the replies. I've been doing some more reading on slip angle management, which I am finding helpful. The trouble is identifying that feeling of driving at optimal slip vs. going over - I guess this just takes experience, but I'm open to suggestions.

At any rate, I think the general consensus of advice is correct and driving more reserved into corners will only only get me so far. The cost of camber plates will be offset by the savings in tire wear (hopefully), so going with some vorshlags and adding a set of ohlins just because.
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      07-05-2017, 12:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
Thanks everyone for the replies. I've been doing some more reading on slip angle management, which I am finding helpful. The trouble is identifying that feeling of driving at optimal slip vs. going over - I guess this just takes experience, but I'm open to suggestions.

At any rate, I think the general consensus of advice is correct and driving more reserved into corners will only only get me so far. The cost of camber plates will be offset by the savings in tire wear (hopefully), so going with some vorshlags and adding a set of ohlins just because.
You'll love it. The main reason I added the Dinan suspension was the savings on labor costs by doing it at the same time as the plates. Get a good corner balance and track alignment, all you'll be set.
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      07-05-2017, 01:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
Thanks everyone for the replies. I've been doing some more reading on slip angle management, which I am finding helpful. The trouble is identifying that feeling of driving at optimal slip vs. going over - I guess this just takes experience, but I'm open to suggestions.

At any rate, I think the general consensus of advice is correct and driving more reserved into corners will only only get me so far. The cost of camber plates will be offset by the savings in tire wear (hopefully), so going with some vorshlags and adding a set of ohlins just because.
Read 'Speed Secrets' by Ross Bentley
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      07-05-2017, 01:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesembry View Post
Read 'Speed Secrets' by Ross Bentley
Own it, read it, and re-reading it Also have Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving.

At the end of the day, understanding the theoretical and principals is one thing, having the feel, consciousness and touch to execute at speed is another thing. Otherwise, everyone who read the book would be racing in Monaco.
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      07-05-2017, 02:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
Own it, read it, and re-reading it Also have Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving.

At the end of the day, understanding the theoretical and principals is one thing, having the feel, consciousness and touch to execute at speed is another thing. Otherwise, everyone who read the book would be racing in Monaco.
True
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      07-05-2017, 05:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
Own it, read it, and re-reading it Also have Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving.

At the end of the day, understanding the theoretical and principals is one thing, having the feel, consciousness and touch to execute at speed is another thing. Otherwise, everyone who read the book would be racing in Monaco.
To this point, Optimum Drive is my fav read.
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      07-07-2017, 10:45 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
Thanks everyone for the replies. I've been doing some more reading on slip angle management, which I am finding helpful. The trouble is identifying that feeling of driving at optimal slip vs. going over - I guess this just takes experience, but I'm open to suggestions.
Hydraulic steering helps...

I'd recommend an older Porsche to force learning that feeling!
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      07-09-2017, 02:25 PM   #19
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I checked my alignment when the car was new and found that it was out of spec ( check my post) , so one piece of your puzzle could be toe in....but you still need camber plates!
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      07-11-2017, 11:34 AM   #20
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Maybe I missed it, but what track were you running (ie how hot was it)?
What hot pressures were you running?
How do the rears look?
How was the balance of the car? The front implies she was under-steering pretty heavily.
Were you running with traction control off or partially on?
Lastly, I know you mentioned you were an instructor so not trying to be insulting, but how long have you been tracking (Number of track days do you have)?

Just trying to cover all the bases.
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      07-11-2017, 02:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noel911 View Post
Maybe I missed it, but what track were you running (ie how hot was it)?
What hot pressures were you running?
How do the rears look?
How was the balance of the car? The front implies she was under-steering pretty heavily.
Were you running with traction control off or partially on?
Lastly, I know you mentioned you were an instructor so not trying to be insulting, but how long have you been tracking (Number of track days do you have)?

Just trying to cover all the bases.
Did one day at Watkins Glen International, one day at Lime Rock Park and a weekend (partial days due to rain and tire issues) at Palmer.
Was shooting for 36 hot all around but I'm not as cognizant with the pressures as I should be. The tires showed lots of sidewall wear from the very first session, so I paid more attention as time wore on.
Rears look fine, normal track wear.
Balance was mostly neutral, but there was understeer in some turns when pushed. I normally try to manage with throttle and balance the car into apex.
Traction Control always fully off
No worries, I'm not an expert racer, just a guy that knows how to carry a decently respectable pace in a safe manner and can communicate that to others. I have probably done somewhere around 25 days in a car but came from motorcycles, previously.

It's probably hard to help coach without sitting in the car with me but I appreciate the attempt. Ultimately, I think a proper track setup with some plates will solve most of the issues while a little more attention and experience to slip angle management will solve the rest.
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      07-11-2017, 02:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twt View Post
I checked my alignment when the car was new and found that it was out of spec ( check my post) , so one piece of your puzzle could be toe in....but you still need camber plates!
Yeah, wouldn't be surprised if my alignment was out of spec. Will have it corrected with track setup when I get camber plates/ohlins. But I don't think a little toe issue could have caused so much wear - but certainly contributed.
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