[cptobvious]

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Hey guys,

Figured you would get a kick out of this story.

A couple of months ago, a buddy of mine came out to visit me and we went to the local Porsche dealership to test drive the Cayman GTS. I let him drive my M2C on the way there. After the test drive, he said, "You know, honestly, I prefer your car." I totally thought he was blowing smoke up my A**. The dude's a really nice guy, and I figured that he was just trying to make me feel good about my car - you know, making up a little white lie about how the car I chose was more "fun" than the Cayman GTS.

After all, Porsche just has this halo about it, and I figured that nothing could compare to Porsche's mid-engine, purpose-built sports car, that every enthusiast raves about, right?

Today, another buddy came into town, he's also looking to buy a fun car, and we also went to the Porsche dealership. He drove my car on the way, and then test drove a Boxster. Afterward, he said the exact same thing! And this buddy of mine would never hold his tongue to spare my feelings about anything!

So, I guess the M2C may not be the fastest car around, it may not be the highest performing car, it may not handle the way a P-car handles, but it seems it really was built specifically to be as fun to drive as a car can be!

In a way... it's kind of disappointing. I was gearing up to buy a Cayman, and really looking forward to having yet another awesome car in my garage. But, really, if it's not as fun to drive as the M2C I already got, doesn't seem there's any point!

I gotta find my next obsession!

[COChris]

Sounds like you'll need to start looking at the GT3

I got similar feedback from an instructor on track last fall. He is a Corvette guy but was pleasantly surprised by the little M2C — to the point where he was telling his friends about it in the paddock. Didn't see that coming at all!

[jasonF30]

This is great to hear since I opted for the M2C over a Cayman S.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

Hey guys,

Figured you would get a kick out of this story.

A couple of months ago, a buddy of mine came out to visit me and we went to the local Porsche dealership to test drive the Cayman GTS. I let him drive my M2C on the way there. After the test drive, he said, "You know, honestly, I prefer your car." I totally thought he was blowing smoke up my A**. The dude's a really nice guy, and I figured that he was just trying to make me feel good about my car - you know, making up a little white lie about how the car I chose was more "fun" than the Cayman GTS.

After all, Porsche just has this halo about it, and I figured that nothing could compare to Porsche's mid-engine, purpose-built sports car, that every enthusiast raves about, right?

Today, another buddy came into town, he's also looking to buy a fun car, and we also went to the Porsche dealership. He drove my car on the way, and then test drove a Boxster. Afterward, he said the exact same thing! And this buddy of mine would never hold his tongue to spare my feelings about anything!

So, I guess the M2C may not be the fastest car around, it may not be the highest performing car, it may not handle the way a P-car handles, but it seems it really was built specifically to be as fun to drive as a car can be!

In a way... it's kind of disappointing. I was gearing up to buy a Cayman, and really looking forward to having yet another awesome car in my garage. But, really, if it's not as fun to drive as the M2C I already got, doesn't seem there's any point!

I gotta find my next obsession!

Where did you get the notion that the 718 or a Cayman is more fun than your M2C?

My ex 1M was more fun than the GT4 I have driven...More torque, more twitchy, can dance around while the GT4 just sticks to the ground...

You should have driven a Porsche and get a feel for yourself instead of basing off anecdotal evidence. Porsche cars are fine precision machines and engineered to go fast easily and reliability but not as much fun on the road.

[Poochie]

The M2 and M2C are great driver's car but don't downplay the benefits of a mid-engine vehicle.

In a mid/rear engine design, the brunt weight of vehicle is placed in the center, allowing for a near-perfect balance of mass to be distributed evenly, as oppose to it being bias to the front or back. That's helps tremendously with handling specifically driver induced over-steer i.e. fun.

Think of it like the difference between throwing a baseball and a baseball bat. The baseball's center of gravity is compacted to the center, while a baseball bat's is unbalanced, and spread out.

I love BMWs because they currently match my niche being RWD, LSD and a manual which is still within my pay-grade, without being forced to eat Raman noodles for dinner everyday. However, if my pockets where deeper, without a doubt a twin-turbo, six-speed 911 would be a top my Bucket List.

[Quietmind]

I think the key phrase here is “fun”. There is no doubt the M2C is a freaking riot to drive. In MDM it’s a tail happy, playful car. Driving mine today in a few inches of fresh snow, I felt like a skilled rally driver (which I am definitely NOT). My Porsche, a 997.1, probably has more ultimate grip and the steering feels more precise. But the giggle factor and confidence the M2C provides, is awesome. Bragging rights about lap times is rightly important to a lot of folks. The Cayman GT4 and now the GTS are likely more neutral (I haven’t driven either), and hence probablly are better track cars, but man is the M2C a lot of fun! And not much slower.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Poochie

T

In a mid/rear engine design, the brunt weight of vehicle is placed in the center, allowing for a near-perfect balance of mass to be distributed evenly, as oppose to it being bias to the front or back. That's helps tremendously with handling specifically driver induced over-steer i.e. fun.

Well actually it does not

A mid engined car is theoretically grippier to start with, no problem, but a FR(front engine rwd) car(like M2/C) is easier to induce oversteer with and maintain it because of its layout...

The mid engined rwd car is not exactly the car you see in drift events either.

Mid/rear engined cars tend to have even 'more' understeer(no weight up front vs FR) at the beginning of the turn-in point vs FR.


But when you want to 'drive on rails' and best handling in general:mid engine.

Cheers
Robin

[cptobvious]

So, I guess the question I have for y'all is: Is there anything else out there that's as fun to drive that someone like me can reasonably afford to add to their garage?

I know there are lots of awesome cars out there. But the ones everyone raves about are just a tad bit out of the "reasonable" range: V12 Vantage, GT3, Berlinetta. I know people love their Type R's and Focus RS's, but... I think I'm too old now to go full "racer boy." I know GM's Alpha Platform is an absolute beast, but I'm not a track star and the GM brand is a bit compromised still - hopefully that changes over time, but at the moment there are still lots of negative connotations / baggage there.

I would totally get an Alpine, based on every review talking about how absolutely awesomely fun that car is to drive, but that's only available in Europe.

The QV? Is that the golden ticket?

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Well actually it does not

A mid engined car is theoretically grippier to start with, no problem, but a FR(front engine rwd) car(like M2/C) is easier to induce oversteer with and maintain it because of its layout...

The mid engined rwd car is not exactly the car you see in drift events either.

Mid/rear engined cars tend to have even 'more' understeer(no weight up front vs FR) at the beginning of the turn-in point vs FR.


But when you want to 'drive on rails' and best handling in general:mid engine.

Cheers
Robin

Hmm, interesting theory.

If in a front-engine, RWD layout, with more weight bias up front, logically, one would assume that it understeers more than a central-mounted engine, where the gross weight is perfectly balanced. Hence the reason that layout is popular with powerful super cars.

But I see what you mean about a FR would be better for drifting, since a mid-engine vehicle is prone to snap-oversteer, due to its layout.

[doberzus]

Recently test drove a 718 Cayman GTS and M2C (PDK vs. DCT).... I can confirm that I preferred the M2C, hands down.

The M2C was $63K and I love the power and sound of the S55 vs the $101K Cayman GTS discounted to $86K. The 718 sounded like my old WRX STI. While the handling and "feel" is incredible. The driving experience is not $23K better.

Plus, I think the M2C looks more aggressive. I was quite disappointed in the Cayman GTS. That sound

[akkando]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

So, I guess the question I have for y'all is: Is there anything else out there that's as fun to drive that someone like me can reasonably afford to add to their garage?

I know there are lots of awesome cars out there. But the ones everyone raves about are just a tad bit out of the "reasonable" range: V12 Vantage, GT3, Berlinetta. I know people love their Type R's and Focus RS's, but... I think I'm too old now to go full "racer boy." I know GM's Alpha Platform is an absolute beast, but I'm not a track star and the GM brand is a bit compromised still - hopefully that changes over time, but at the moment there are still lots of negative connotations / baggage there.

I would totally get an Alpine, based on every review talking about how absolutely awesomely fun that car is to drive, but that's only available in Europe.

The QV? Is that the golden ticket?

Get an Atom?

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by akkando

Get an Atom?

Ha! That would be awesome!

[palum6o]

We had an '07 997C4s and loved that car a lot. As the kids got older and bigger, so did all their 'stuff'. The M2C is a really useful car, nice back seat for the little ones, and plenty of trunk space for lacrosse gear, kids scooters, my gym and work stuff. I think it's the perfect sports car for Dads.

[Transfer]

If this discussion is 718 GTS then that flat 4 is a non-starter for a lot of people, myself included. Yeah it is crazy capable and fast around a circuit, but... you know...icky sounds. Porsche would never dare put an engine like that in the 911. Now 981 GTS vs M2C is more interesting to me although the 981 is going to be down on power/torque.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

So, I guess the question I have for y'all is: Is there anything else out there that's as fun to drive that someone like me can reasonably afford to add to their garage?

I know there are lots of awesome cars out there. But the ones everyone raves about are just a tad bit out of the "reasonable" range: V12 Vantage, GT3, Berlinetta. I know people love their Type R's and Focus RS's, but... I think I'm too old now to go full "racer boy." I know GM's Alpha Platform is an absolute beast, but I'm not a track star and the GM brand is a bit compromised still - hopefully that changes over time, but at the moment there are still lots of negative connotations / baggage there.

I would totally get an Alpine, based on every review talking about how absolutely awesomely fun that car is to drive, but that's only available in Europe.

The QV? Is that the golden ticket?

Alfa 4C for sure. I would go for the targa version

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Alfa 4C for sure. I would go for the targa version

Funny you should say that!

Buddy and I went to the Alfa dealership today and test drove the QV. Was honestly underwhelmed. Car is fantastically fast, grips the road like nothing else, but... felt too cushy and luxurious. I know that's crazy to say, but it just seemed too grown up, too smooth, too quiet honestly.

The 4C looked amazing. We're going back later in the week to test drive it. Been watching a bunch of YouTube reviews and the main complaint seems to be that it's too stiff, too cramped, and too spartan (can't live with it as a DD). Isn't that what we want in an enthusiast's car?

I think Chris Harris said that the 4C falls between the Lotus Elise (totally unlivable and uncompromising) and the Cayman (luxurious). That about sounds perfect as a 3rd car for the garage!

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Hmm, interesting theory.

If in a front-engine, RWD layout, with more weight bias up front, logically, one would assume that it understeers more than a central-mounted engine, where the gross weight is perfectly balanced. Hence the reason that layout is popular with powerful super cars.

But I see what you mean about a FR would be better for drifting, since a mid-engine vehicle is prone to snap-oversteer, due to its layout.

It's just car physics.
It's like this: An FR car like M2/C and 'all non SUV M cars in general until F90 M5' are tailhappy to begin with. Any powerful FR BMW has or had that feature even before //M was founded. 3.0 CS/ CSL/ 2002 Turbo.

The 50/50 weightbalance theory BMW//M is giving us is about >51/49 in real life. But there is pressure/kgs on the front when turning in. While there is not so much in a mid engined car. And too much kgs at the frontend like an FWD car gives understeer too.

MR(mid engined) cars have loads of traction vs FR cars because the heavy engine and stuff is pushing the rear end even more down in accelleration and even with braking the rearend doesn't lift as much as with an FR(BMW) or FWD car.

The FR car doesn't have as much weight at the rearend so when braking first(rearend lifts) and applying throttle immediately gives a loss of traction way before a mid engined car does, hence driftability.
A midengined car can get earlier on the gas mid bend/out of the bend than an FR car because more traction, better laptimes.

But the 'fun' with tailhappiness and stuff starts in an FR car with limited slip differential.

Cheers
Robin

[chris719]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

So, I guess the question I have for y'all is: Is there anything else out there that's as fun to drive that someone like me can reasonably afford to add to their garage?

I know there are lots of awesome cars out there. But the ones everyone raves about are just a tad bit out of the "reasonable" range: V12 Vantage, GT3, Berlinetta. I know people love their Type R's and Focus RS's, but... I think I'm too old now to go full "racer boy." I know GM's Alpha Platform is an absolute beast, but I'm not a track star and the GM brand is a bit compromised still - hopefully that changes over time, but at the moment there are still lots of negative connotations / baggage there.

I would totally get an Alpine, based on every review talking about how absolutely awesomely fun that car is to drive, but that's only available in Europe.

The QV? Is that the golden ticket?

As others mentioned, if fun is your criteria... Alfa 4C, Porsche 987.2 or 981 Cayman S, 997.2 Carrera S, maybe C7 Z51 / Grand Sport.

I have not driven a 718, so I won't comment, but I find it hard to believe it isn't as fun to drive as an M2C unless you are drifting everywhere you go. The small sports cars are just better packages, IMO.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

Funny you should say that!

Buddy and I went to the Alfa dealership today and test drove the QV. Was honestly underwhelmed. Car is fantastically fast, grips the road like nothing else, but... felt too cushy and luxurious. I know that's crazy to say, but it just seemed too grown up, too smooth, too quiet honestly.

The 4C looked amazing. We're going back later in the week to test drive it. Been watching a bunch of YouTube reviews and the main complaint seems to be that it's too stiff, too cramped, and too spartan (can't live with it as a DD). Isn't that what we want in an enthusiast's car?

I think Chris Harris said that the 4C falls between the Lotus Elise (totally unlivable and uncompromising) and the Cayman (luxurious). That about sounds perfect as a 3rd car for the garage!

Best car in that case(way better than 4C) is Alpine. But a really long waiting list.

Cheers
Robin

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by chris719

As others mentioned, if fun is your criteria... Alfa 4C, Porsche 987.2 or 981 Cayman S, 997.2 Carrera S, maybe C7 Z51 / Grand Sport.

I have not driven a 718, so I won't comment, but I find it hard to believe it isn't as fun to drive as an M2C unless you are drifting everywhere you go. The small sports cars are just better packages, IMO.

Yeah, man, that's exactly what I thought too!

But definitely try driving a 718 sometime. It's weird. It's super planted, it's super fast, it's absolutely gorgeous, and the quality of the cabin just feels super special... and then that sound ruins everything! It's crazy. I always poo-poo'ed all the threads I'd read putting down the 718 sound (after all, everyone complained endlessly about the S55 sound, but the M2C sounds absolutely fine to me), so I just figured it was some Negative Nellies getting too wound up about it all. But, it just "feels" antiseptic somehow. Don't know how to explain it.

After test driving the car, I went back and watched some reviews and I remember one reviewer said something along the lines of: "Porsche have finally made the Cayman as fast and capable as enthusiast's have been asking for all this time. But in doing so, with the 4 cylinder engine, they've taken away it's soul and emotion." That's totally how it felt to me.