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      08-16-2018, 09:26 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
How one can be socially liberal, and fiscally conservative
I responded to you in specific regard to that in another thread with no response, so perhaps this time you'll see it.

"I disagree with your premise but in Trump we have fiscal irresponsibility with the same result of "social liberalism" as you define it (increased spending). If you are into fiscal conservatism Trump is categorically NOT your guy.

Edit: This is the problem with broad definitions. To me, as a social liberal, I think of abortion rights, gay marriage, limited federal overreach into the personal lives of citizens, legal weed, and a variety of other items....not socialized healthcare, or open borders."


To add to that, I also see fiscal conservatism as fiscal responsibility. Deficit spending is OK in rough times, but when the economy is doing well (as it is now, and has been) we should see the deficit shrink....as we did in the latter Obama years. Seeing it explode now, along with slashed receipts = near the height of fiscal irresponsibility.
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      08-16-2018, 09:57 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
I responded to you in specific regard to that in another thread with no response, so perhaps this time you'll see it.

"I disagree with your premise but in Trump we have fiscal irresponsibility with the same result of "social liberalism" as you define it (increased spending). If you are into fiscal conservatism Trump is categorically NOT your guy.

Edit: This is the problem with broad definitions. To me, as a social liberal, I think of abortion rights, gay marriage, limited federal overreach into the personal lives of citizens, legal weed, and a variety of other items....not socialized healthcare, or open borders."


To add to that, I also see fiscal conservatism as fiscal responsibility. Deficit spending is OK in rough times, but when the economy is doing well (as it is now, and has been) we should see the deficit shrink....as we did in the latter Obama years. Seeing it explode now, along with slashed receipts = near the height of fiscal irresponsibility.
Well put as I was struggling with what kind of answer he was looking for as well.
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      08-16-2018, 11:11 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
How one can be socially liberal, and fiscally conservative
I responded to you in specific regard to that in another thread with no response, so perhaps this time you'll see it.

"I disagree with your premise but in Trump we have fiscal irresponsibility with the same result of "social liberalism" as you define it (increased spending). If you are into fiscal conservatism Trump is categorically NOT your guy.

Edit: This is the problem with broad definitions. To me, as a social liberal, I think of abortion rights, gay marriage, limited federal overreach into the personal lives of citizens, legal weed, and a variety of other items....not socialized healthcare, or open borders."


To add to that, I also see fiscal conservatism as fiscal responsibility. Deficit spending is OK in rough times, but when the economy is doing well (as it is now, and has been) we should see the deficit shrink....as we did in the latter Obama years. Seeing it explode now, along with slashed receipts = near the height of fiscal irresponsibility.
I agree - and said at the time he shouldn't have signed off on that spending.

But forget all that - if a new party was created, what sort of policies would be "fiscally conservative and socially liberal?"
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      08-16-2018, 11:58 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
I responded to you in specific regard to that in another thread with no response, so perhaps this time you'll see it.

"I disagree with your premise but in Trump we have fiscal irresponsibility with the same result of "social liberalism" as you define it (increased spending). If you are into fiscal conservatism Trump is categorically NOT your guy.

Edit: This is the problem with broad definitions. To me, as a social liberal, I think of abortion rights, gay marriage, limited federal overreach into the personal lives of citizens, legal weed, and a variety of other items....not socialized healthcare, or open borders."


To add to that, I also see fiscal conservatism as fiscal responsibility. Deficit spending is OK in rough times, but when the economy is doing well (as it is now, and has been) we should see the deficit shrink....as we did in the latter Obama years. Seeing it explode now, along with slashed receipts = near the height of fiscal irresponsibility.
I definitely get under the premise of this. Not everyone follows the whole package of what any party or person offers. There is always differing opinion on individual things.

I feel like it'd be too hard to have a ton of parties representing the spectrum of interests in the US so we end up picking one of two - usually the one we think is least worst.

I do think being liberal and being fiscally responsible is not mutually exclusive. Same as conservatives that do not believe in God and liberals who are against illegal immigration etc. Everyone likes to stereotype but the spectrum of people is quite diverse.
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      08-16-2018, 12:03 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I agree - and said at the time he shouldn't have signed off on that spending.

But forget all that - if a new party was created, what sort of policies would be "fiscally conservative and socially liberal?"
Oh wow, there's a ton of things that fall under that. Basically any socially liberal policy that doesn't cost any money would fall under that.

Things like gay marriage, weed legalization, abortion immediately come to mind. Many more things if you spend time to think of it.
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      08-16-2018, 02:14 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I agree - and said at the time he shouldn't have signed off on that spending.

But forget all that - if a new party was created, what sort of policies would be "fiscally conservative and socially liberal?"
Oh wow, there's a ton of things that fall under that. Basically any socially liberal policy that doesn't cost any money would fall under that.

Things like gay marriage, weed legalization, abortion immediately come to mind. Many more things if you spend time to think of it.
Legalized weed is enormously expensive to taxpayers. As is abortion. Gay marriage also.
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      08-16-2018, 02:18 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Legalized weed is enormously expensive to taxpayers. As is abortion. Gay marriage also.
Citation, please. On all 3.
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      08-16-2018, 03:40 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
I responded to you in specific regard to that in another thread with no response, so perhaps this time you'll see it.

"I disagree with your premise but in Trump we have fiscal irresponsibility with the same result of "social liberalism" as you define it (increased spending). If you are into fiscal conservatism Trump is categorically NOT your guy.

Edit: This is the problem with broad definitions. To me, as a social liberal, I think of abortion rights, gay marriage, limited federal overreach into the personal lives of citizens, legal weed, and a variety of other items....not socialized healthcare, or open borders."


To add to that, I also see fiscal conservatism as fiscal responsibility. Deficit spending is OK in rough times, but when the economy is doing well (as it is now, and has been) we should see the deficit shrink....as we did in the latter Obama years. Seeing it explode now, along with slashed receipts = near the height of fiscal irresponsibility.
Couldn't agree with you more.

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      12-06-2018, 07:01 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norMcal View Post
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I don't think we are as far apart as you might think.

The name calling thing was a misunderstanding on my behalf. I thought you suggested I called people within our debate names, which I don't do. Yes, I called the politician in question a name, and then justified it, guilty as charged. FWIW, I feel he is well deserving of it, but that is besides the point. Moving on.

I don't see things only left or right, but it usually boils down to left or right, because that is how our system is set up. It's not like we have any other choice than to vote left or right, unless you want to waste your vote.
I grew up in Switzerland and like many other countries in Europe, they have many political parties, which we desperately need here also. So I understand what you mean, but again, with the given choices, what good would it do me to vote libertarian?

I do run a business, and have ran in to issues exporting stuff, which I brought up early on in this thread. It is one of the reasons I am supporting what Trump is doing. It seems pretty obvious to me, that the tariffs are just a way to get other countries to the negotiating table, and not a permanent solution. Short term it might hurt, yes, but long term it should benefit the US. Again, he's not the one that set up the current (bad) deals we have and he certainly does not get a lot of support from anyone, so he goes about things the way he did in the business world. Many seem to fault him for that and call it undiplomatic, but it isn't like politicians have a great track record running our country, so why not try something new? Maybe if the politicians in DC, the media and all those trying to frame him for something that isn't there, would get behind him, we'd have a fitting chance?

The way I see it, the US is the biggest consumer nation in the world, and we also have more resources than most other nations. In other words, we could be self sufficient if we needed to be, AND most other nations need us more than we need them, because we buy more of their stuff then they buy ours. Not that I think we should take advantage of that and stick it to them, but we certainly should not let them do it to us, when we hold a lot of the cards. So, I am willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt and take a chance on a trade war. My feeling is we'll come out ahead......eventually, and that is what matters in the end. If it meas a bit of short term pain, then so be it.

As far as the media goes. I feel that you are painting a pretty picture, and think that because there are some alternative news is available, it is a fair deal. The reality is that 6 corporations own 90% of all media outlets, and control the narrative. Let that sink in. Do you really think that the majority of this country seeks alternative news, or just listens to the daily dribble coming from 90% of the stations? Most of them believe it, because if 90% of the news says the same thing, then it must be true. So they believe the propaganda. Just look at what happened on election night. That was America waking up and the news outlets not understanding the world anymore. And they've been having a hissy fit ever since.

Anyway, like I said, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but not on the media.
a quick update on the " short term" pain.


The U.S. trade deficit in October soared to $55.5 billion, one of the highest levels in a decade, including the largest-ever deficits with China and Europe, according to a Commerce Department report released today.

President Donald Trump's tariffs on steel and aluminum imports and a wide range of Chinese goods have not narrowed the gap between imports and exports this year. The trade deficit in goods and services since January is $51 billion higher than over the same period in 2017, an 11 percent increase, the report showed.

The monthly deficits with China ($43.1 billion) and the EU ($17.6 billion) are the highest on record. And the October deficit specifically in goods (not including services) was $77 billion, also the largest ever recorded.

Trump has long vowed to close the gap between how much the U.S. buys from and sells to other countries. Narrowing the trade deficit with China is one of the administration's objectives for trade talks with Beijing over the next three months

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...europe-1047317
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      12-06-2018, 09:34 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
The U.S. trade deficit in October soared to $55.5 billion, one of the highest levels in a decade...
"One of" the highest levels in a decade? :

Sounds like someone really, really wants to say it is the highest level in a decade but the facts just aren't there so we'll just make it sound that way.
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      12-06-2018, 09:39 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
The U.S. trade deficit in October soared to $55.5 billion, one of the highest levels in a decade...
"One of" the highest levels in a decade? :
Sounds like someone really, really wants to say it is the highest level in a decade but the facts just aren't there so we'll just make it sound that way.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/06/inte...orts-rise.html


The U.S. trade deficit jumped to a 10-year high in October as soybean exports continued to fall and imports of consumer goods rose to a record high, suggesting the Trump administration's tariff-related measures to shrink the trade gap likely have been ineffective.

•The Commerce Department said on Thursday the trade deficit increased 1.7 percent to $55.5 billion, the highest level since October 2008.
•The trade gap has now widened for a five straight months. Data for September was revised to show the deficit rising to $54.6 billion instead of the previously reported $54.0 billion.


Trade subtracted 1.91 percentage points from GDP growth in the July-September quarter

" Trump administration's tariff-related measures to shrink the trade gap likely have been ineffective "

I agree.. on both counts.. a very generous way of putting it don't ya think? It's been a disaster so far.
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Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 12-06-2018 at 09:50 PM.
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      12-06-2018, 09:49 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
The U.S. trade deficit in October soared to $55.5 billion, one of the highest levels in a decade...
"One of" the highest levels in a decade? :
Sounds like someone really, really wants to say it is the highest level in a decade but the facts just aren't there so we'll just make it sound that way.
Bet you won't find the commerce report to find out.


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/06/inte...orts-rise.html

•The Commerce Department said on Thursday the trade deficit increased 1.7 percent to $55.5 billion, the highest level since October 2008.
•The trade gap has now widened for a five straight months. Data for September was revised to show the deficit rising to $54.6 billion instead of the previously reported $54.0 billion.
Hey- if the deficit is indeed the highest in a decade, then please consider my post a critique of your choice of words. 😘
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      12-06-2018, 09:51 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Hey- if the deficit is indeed the highest in a decade, then please consider my post a critique of your choice of words. ��
I consider it a critique of the article's words... as they are not mine.
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      12-06-2018, 10:05 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Hey- if the deficit is indeed the highest in a decade, then please consider my post a critique of your choice of words. ��
I consider it a critique of the article's words... as they are not mine.
Fair enough.
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