[boldy1]

Originally Posted by Daleb

Good power for 99 only. Sure you could see mid/high 500s with more octane on that turbo.

Keep us updated on your results with the new turbo 👍🏼

I will bud

[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by boldy1

520 on the tte without meth and could push a bit more the 550 will be for sale now its a new unit probably 200 miles on it

Is that 520 at the crank or wheels?

How much were they pushing the turbo to hit those numbers?

[boldy1]

Originally Posted by detroitm2

Is that 520 at the crank or wheels?

How much were they pushing the turbo to hit those numbers?

We measure Crank in the UK and 1.39 bar but it wasn't an aggressive tune I didn't finish the tune as I had some other issues to resolve first. The turbo had a quick spool and pulled like a train.

[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by boldy1

We measure Crank in the UK and 1.39 bar but it wasn't an aggressive tune I didn't finish the tune as I had some other issues to resolve first. The turbo had a quick spool and pulled like a train.

Interesting. And that was on pump gas and not ethanol mix? May be worth looking at for my build.

[boldy1]

Originally Posted by detroitm2

Interesting. And that was on pump gas and not ethanol mix? May be worth looking at for my build.

99ron v power only the tte turbo has made 550 on pump gas only. I am sure we could of got another few hp out of it on pump gas

[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by boldy1

99ron v power only the tte turbo has made 550 on pump gas only. I am sure we could of got another few hp out of it on pump gas

Hell, if I can get around 525 on an ethanol mix and be reliable, I'm happy.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I still doubt anyone that is really pushing a year round daily driving N55 with 500+ whp can keep it cool enough on track in the summer, regardless of turbo setup.

But, if someone can pull it off, would love to see it!

If someone can pull it off it be -Eidos

[F87source]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

If someone can pull it off it be -Eidos

I highly doubt it, it's not a matter of tuning skill or car building skills but the fact that the factory radiator is so fricken small. The reason why is bmw tucks the intercooler underneath of the radiator assembly thereby cutting a huge section out of the radiator. This is why the s55 with an air to water intercooler can push much higher power levels on the track because it has such a large radiator compared to the n55 cars, as the heat exchanger sits in front of the radiator allowing for a full size rad to be used.

The only way I can see a semi-bolt on (not too much custom work) streetable build (has AC and bumper bar intact for street legalility) n55 m2 pushing 500 whp stay cool on the track with a really good driver pushing hard, is for the following to occur:

1) A crap ton of water spraying to occur on the radiator
2) CO2 sprayers on the radiator, this might cause cracking issues as the radiator is going to be really hot and the CO2 will be extremely cold
3) crazy custom fender radiators or rear mounted radiators, this kinda of pushes the limits of bolt on.
4) deletion of the coolant oil heat exchanger which will absolutely screw over any winter climate m2 owners.
5) A giant oil cooler and factory oil thermostat delete and replaced with something like improved racings high flow thermostat. This again will be unfeasible for any sort of winter driving, especially with the heat exchanger delete.
6) If a single large oil cooler is not possible due to the limited mounting spots then you'll likely have to go dual custom oil coolers in the lower bumper openings + aux radiator in where a dct cooler would be.
7) maybe if there's space to double stack radiators but then you compromise so much airflow.

But most of these things would make the car non streetable with over cooled oil that has a difficult time warming up in the winter, or coolant temps that have trouble getting up to temp.


Otherwise if you're willing to do crazy custom fabbing then it could be possible with a full s55 cooling retrofit + additional radiators, but at that point it wouldn't qualify as an n55 cooling setup anymore.


In summary an off the shelf solution is impossible, but with enough crazy diying and fabbing anything is possible.

Edit- this sounds kind of negative let me clear it up a bit, I really do hope someone can do something crazy with the n55 cooling setup so we all can have a path to follow, so if edios can do it I will be cheering for him. But I really don't think it's possible if you keep the n55 cooling setup and frame work, you'd really really have to go out of the box to solve this issue.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by F87source

I highly doubt it, it's not a matter of tuning skill or car building skills but the fact that the factory radiator is so fricken small. The reason why is bmw tucks the intercooler underneath of the radiator assembly thereby cutting a huge section out of the radiator. This is why the s55 with an air to water intercooler can push much higher power levels on the track because it has such a large radiator compared to the n55 cars, as the heat exchanger sits in front of the radiator allowing for a full size rad to be used.

The only way I can see a semi-bolt on (not too much custom work) streetable build (has AC and bumper bar intact for street legalility) n55 m2 pushing 500 whp stay cool on the track with a really good driver pushing hard, is for the following to occur:

1) A crap ton of water spraying to occur on the radiator
2) CO2 sprayers on the radiator, this might cause cracking issues as the radiator is going to be really hot and the CO2 will be extremely cold
3) crazy custom fender radiators or rear mounted radiators, this kinda of pushes the limits of bolt on.
4) deletion of the coolant oil heat exchanger which will absolutely screw over any winter climate m2 owners.
5) A giant oil cooler and factory oil thermostat delete and replaced with something like improved racings high flow thermostat. This again will be unfeasible for any sort of winter driving, especially with the heat exchanger delete.
6) If a single large oil cooler is not possible due to the limited mounting spots then you'll likely have to go dual custom oil coolers in the lower bumper openings + aux radiator in where a dct cooler would be.
7) maybe if there's space to double stack radiators but then you compromise so much airflow.

But most of these things would make the car non streetable with over cooled oil that has a difficult time warming up in the winter, or coolant temps that have trouble getting up to temp.


Otherwise if you're willing to do crazy custom fabbing then it could be possible with a full s55 cooling retrofit + additional radiators, but at that point it wouldn't qualify as an n55 cooling setup anymore.


In summary an off the shelf solution is impossible, but with enough crazy diying and fabbing anything is possible.

Edit- this sounds kind of negative let me clear it up a bit, I really do hope someone can do something crazy with the n55 cooling setup so we all can have a path to follow, so if edios can do it I will be cheering for him. But I really don't think it's possible if you keep the n55 cooling setup and frame work, you'd really really have to go out of the box to solve this issue.

He already has a CSF radiator, with a Evo 3 FMIC. He also has a oil thermostat. That said, even a stock S55 has issues in 100F summer heat track days, so that's not really a good comparison, but with a low enough ambient the car should survive 20 minutes of hot lapping.. we'll see once he's ready to go track.

Will be fun putting the M2 head to head with the X3M

[F87source]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

He already has a CSF radiator, with a Evo 3 FMIC. He also has a oil thermostat. That said, even a stock S55 has issues in 100F summer heat track days, so that's not really a good comparison, but with a low enough ambient the car should survive 20 minutes of hot lapping.. we'll see once he's ready to go track.

Will be fun putting the M2 head to head with the X3M

The CSF radiator is not enough even for a turbo upgrade m2, zm2 with heavily modified cooling (CSF cooling suite + d088 aux rad + evo 2 now evo 3) still struggles with a Dinan stage 1 turbo pushing 450 whp, so imo just a radiator and oil thermostat valve (does literally nothing except maybe delay the inevitable by a couple more laps) will not suffice for 500 whp.


But yeah hopefully everything goes ok with cooler days, I wish him luck.


Haha cool little head to head! Is the X3m modded? If not then the m2 with 500whp should destroy it in the straights and corners. If the X3M is modded it should keep up in the straights but fall behind in the corners. But overall pretty cool to see an M suv on track.

[ZM2]

Hope someone can pull it off, but yeah, the deck is stacked against us.

About the only other things I’ll try while not pushing the boundary of a four seasons daily driver would be spraying as much WMI as possible without tuning for it and bypassing the oil/coolant exchanger in the summer.

Going to see how she does this summer with 440+ whp and then decide, but the reality is making 500whp reliable on track in the summer is another big chunk of change that I’m not willing to spend. I’m pretty happy with this power level and will spend the cash on more tires and brake pads.

Another alternative is to only track when it’s <85F out and all these problems go away.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by F87source

The CSF radiator is not enough even for a turbo upgrade m2, zm2 with heavily modified cooling (CSF cooling suite + d088 aux rad + evo 2 now evo 3) still struggles with a Dinan stage 1 turbo pushing 450 whp, so imo just a radiator and oil thermostat valve (does literally nothing except maybe delay the inevitable by a couple more laps) will not suffice for 500 whp.


But yeah hopefully everything goes ok with cooler days, I wish him luck.


Haha cool little head to head! Is the X3m modded? If not then the m2 with 500whp should destroy it in the straights and corners. If the X3M is modded it should keep up in the straights but fall behind in the corners. But overall pretty cool to see an M suv on track.

The 7670 has much less backpressure vs the stock housing hybrids. just lower EMAP alone will help reduce temps on the motor. Tuning can also help too, different oil pressure targets, coolant temp targets etc.

Yes the X3M is tuned, will be going FlexFuel as soon as ecutek is released. First suv I've driven in the rain that wants to kill me.

That said, full lapping at 550+whp is probably going to stress other components... heat would probably be the least of my worry unless it's the summer..

What you want to do in a tune is to make it so that you don't get into thermal overload, so if it means dialing the car back when it gets hot so you can still enjoy your HPDE session is the way I like to tune. Now obviously it'll be better if you have the cooling to back it up so you can get the consistent 550+ on track.

[Daleb]

Are people taking into consideration the heat a stock based turbo will be creating vs a proper stage 3 type kit?

The heat generated at say 500whp with a stage 3 kit vs 500whp on a PS2 won’t be the same. If anything it would probably be worse on the stage 2+ map some of us run on the oem turbo.

Here’s some testing Pureturbos.eu did a while ago on their m135 with a ps2 on 94 octane and Wagner evo 2 when it was first released. I’ve quoted the part about turbo outlet temps but here’s the whole article if interested: https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31479

‘Maybe also interesting to point out is that the turbo outlet air temperature we measured during the runs at 17 psi with pure stage2 turbo was 186-188c (366-370F). Knowing this you guys must see that these intercoolers have a hard job to do and are doing a good job at it as well. I also did a few runs at 21.5 psi with meth and then the outgoing air from turbo reached 205c (400F)’

It would be interesting to see the same data from a stage 3 kit to compare.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

The 7670 has much less backpressure vs the stock housing hybrids. just lower EMAP alone will help reduce temps on the motor. Tuning can also help too, different oil pressure targets, coolant temp targets etc.

Yes the X3M is tuned, will be going FlexFuel as soon as ecutek is released. First suv I've driven in the rain that wants to kill me.

That said, full lapping at 550+whp is probably going to stress other components... heat would probably be the least of my worry unless it's the summer..

What you want to do in a tune is to make it so that you don't get into thermal overload, so if it means dialing the car back when it gets hot so you can still enjoy your HPDE session is the way I like to tune. Now obviously it'll be better if you have the cooling to back it up so you can get the consistent 550+ on track.

Very nice! S58 is going to be quite a nice motor from what I'm seeing out of the B58.

Yes there is lower back pressure because the turbo fold is so much better, but at 550whp it's going to be a huge challenge to cool it.

Ethanol will be a huge help if you tune it really rich with high E content so that will be nice. But lower coolant temps will still just be a crutch buying maybe an extra few laps, because the major bottle neck is the tiny surface area of the radiator.

Does he have an oil cooler? Because oil temps are going to hit limp mode rapidly if he doesn't, and then it will drag coolant along with it due to the heat exchanger.


But yes you are correct, at 550whp other things like the diff will over heat, then you will get a drivetrain error about the diff lock not working, and the solution would be a diff cooler.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Hope someone can pull it off, but yeah, the deck is stacked against us.

About the only other things I’ll try while not pushing the boundary of a four seasons daily driver would be spraying as much WMI as possible without tuning for it and bypassing the oil/coolant exchanger in the summer.

Going to see how she does this summer with 440+ whp and then decide, but the reality is making 500whp reliable on track in the summer is another big chunk of change that I’m not willing to spend. I’m pretty happy with this power level and will spend the cash on more tires and brake pads.

Another alternative is to only track when it’s <85F out and all these problems go away.

Yup at 500whp other things overheat like the diff. Also putting down 500whp on corner exits is going to be a bit hairy compared to 400whp, and we all know neat and tidy means faster not fish tailing tire smoking power. So imo keep power levels reasonable for the straights while maintaining temps, and work more on weight reduction, and suspension and tires to allow for more mechanical grip to put down that power. Aero helps too if you want to invest in that route, but it'll make a stret car super racery which is not an aesthetic most people like.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yup at 500whp other things overheat like the diff. Also putting down 500whp on corner exits is going to be a bit hairy compared to 400whp, and we all know neat and tidy means faster not fish tailing tire smoking power. So imo keep power levels reasonable for the straights while maintaining temps, and work more on weight reduction, and suspension and tires to allow for more mechanical grip to put down that power. Aero helps too if you want to invest in that route, but it'll make a stret car super racery which is not an aesthetic most people like.

All very true. The systems cost to push that much power on track goes exponential (I’ve already had to replace a diff).

Plus, McLaren, Ferrari, Lambo, Z06, etc, all overheat on track when pushed hard in the summer, too. I know those are pushing a little more power but they’re lighter and have better airflow, and shows there’s no way to easily mod our platform out of this issue.

The sprint & endurance race cars like GTLM, LMGTE, & V8 Supercars and OEM power level 911s are the only cars I know that can sustain 500+ whp on track in summer for more than a typical 20min HPDE session.

But, like I said, I’m sure that much power on a highway pull is a blast and I’d happily strap in for a ride!

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

All very true. The systems cost to push that much power on track goes exponential (I’ve already had to replace a diff).

Plus, McLaren, Ferrari, Lambo, Z06, etc, all overheat on track when pushed hard in the summer, too. I know those are pushing a little more power but they’re lighter and have better airflow, and shows there’s no way to easily mod our platform out of this issue.

The sprint & endurance race cars like GTLM, LMGTE, & V8 Supercars and OEM power level 911s are the only cars I know that can sustain 500+ whp on track in summer for more than a typical 20min HPDE session.

But, like I said, I’m sure that much power on a highway pull is a blast and I’d happily strap in for a ride!

Oh man you had diff failure? How did that happen? Was it because you had an old version of the diff pre recall or was it due to track stress?


I wish it would be easier to code out the factory diff for a drexler unit.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Daleb

Are people taking into consideration the heat a stock based turbo will be creating vs a proper stage 3 type kit?

The heat generated at say 500whp with a stage 3 kit vs 500whp on a PS2 won’t be the same. If anything it would probably be worse on the stage 2+ map some of us run on the oem turbo.

Here’s some testing Pureturbos.eu did a while ago on their m135 with a ps2 on 94 octane and Wagner evo 2 when it was first released. I’ve quoted the part about turbo outlet temps but here’s the whole article if interested: https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31479

‘Maybe also interesting to point out is that the turbo outlet air temperature we measured during the runs at 17 psi with pure stage2 turbo was 186-188c (366-370F). Knowing this you guys must see that these intercoolers have a hard job to do and are doing a good job at it as well. I also did a few runs at 21.5 psi with meth and then the outgoing air from turbo reached 205c (400F)’

It would be interesting to see the same data from a stage 3 kit to compare.

Intake air temperatures are one factor for engine temps, but you have to remember the more power the engine makes the more heat it will also produce due to the engine having to burn more air and fuel to make that increased power. So at a higher horse power level honestly I would say intake air temps are a big factor but the heat generated at that power level would be an even bigger factor - hence why an S55 can still over heat despite the air to water intercooler and thus iat's staying cold to the touch.

So in summary yes iat's are important to control, but at some power level it doesn't matter even if your iat's are ambient your motor is going to be too hot. But still you should tackle these issues along with turbo back pressure if possible to push every single little possibility of cooler temps, but again imo it likely won't keep the car out of limp mode at that power level.


I always was curious to see if a better turbo fold would help evacuate the hot exhaust gasses better and thus allow the motor to stay cooler, but I have my doubts at over 500whp. Also it will be hard to tell on Edios's setup because different drivers have different skill levels and different setups on their car. But I am still looking forward to seeing the data.

Apologize if I sound very negative, but I have been on this N55 journey for along time with my n55 m235i back in 2014 and heat issues have never been solved for heavily tuned cars - so I'm a tired grizzled vet on this platform and it really has been weighing me down. So I really do hope someone manages to find a good solution for all of us.

[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by F87source

Intake air temperatures are one factor for engine temps, but you have to remember the more power the engine makes the more heat it will also produce due to the engine having to burn more air and fuel to make that increased power. So at a higher horse power level honestly I would say intake air temps are a big factor but the heat generated at that power level would be an even bigger factor - hence why an S55 can still over heat despite the air to water intercooler and thus iat's staying cold to the touch.

So in summary yes iat's are important to control, but at some power level it doesn't matter even if your iat's are ambient your motor is going to be too hot. But still you should tackle these issues along with turbo back pressure if possible to push every single little possibility of cooler temps, but again imo it likely won't keep the car out of limp mode at that power level.


I always was curious to see if a better turbo fold would help evacuate the hot exhaust gasses better and thus allow the motor to stay cooler, but I have my doubts at over 500whp. Also it will be hard to tell on Edios's setup because different drivers have different skill levels and different setups on their car. But I am still looking forward to seeing the data.

Apologize if I sound very negative, but I have been on this N55 journey for along time with my n55 m235i back in 2014 and heat issues have never been solved for heavily tuned cars - so I'm a tired grizzled vet on this platform and it really has been weighing me down. So I really do hope someone manages to find a good solution for all of us.

To be fair, there's way more options available now than there was back in 2014. A bunch of new turbos coming out, and other modifications that all can help with the problems.

It's an uphill battle for sure. But I'm not scared to take it on.

Worst case I end up with 500+ WHP on the street and have a detuned map for the track.

[Daleb]

Originally Posted by F87source

Intake air temperatures are one factor for engine temps, but you have to remember the more power the engine makes the more heat it will also produce due to the engine having to burn more air and fuel to make that increased power. So at a higher horse power level honestly I would say intake air temps are a big factor but the heat generated at that power level would be an even bigger factor - hence why an S55 can still over heat despite the air to water intercooler and thus iat's staying cold to the touch.

So in summary yes iat's are important to control, but at some power level it doesn't matter even if your iat's are ambient your motor is going to be too hot. But still you should tackle these issues along with turbo back pressure if possible to push every single little possibility of cooler temps, but again imo it likely won't keep the car out of limp mode at that power level.


I always was curious to see if a better turbo fold would help evacuate the hot exhaust gasses better and thus allow the motor to stay cooler, but I have my doubts at over 500whp. Also it will be hard to tell on Edios's setup because different drivers have different skill levels and different setups on their car. But I am still looking forward to seeing the data.

Apologize if I sound very negative, but I have been on this N55 journey for along time with my n55 m235i back in 2014 and heat issues have never been solved for heavily tuned cars - so I'm a tired grizzled vet on this platform and it really has been weighing me down. So I really do hope someone manages to find a good solution for all of us.

For sure i agree with everything you are saying. Obviously ethanol can help combat cylinder temps much better over 93 so thats pretty much a given at this point. Meth injection could be used for purely cooling purposes too which is another option for the track.

I think we know for sure that a better flowing turbofold at the same psi vs stock will have lower back pressure and temps. It would be nice to see some numbers though. I look forward to seeing the results from Edios and zm2's cars on track.

I too have been around the n55 since 2014 and feel like the platform has came along a lot since then, especially over the last few years. Hopefully things carry on progressing.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by F87source

Oh man you had diff failure? How did that happen? Was it because you had an old version of the diff pre recall or was it due to track stress?


I wish it would be easier to code out the factory diff for a drexler unit.

Mine wasn’t part of the diff recall. I was getting a low level driveline hum and vibration and low and behold, there was metal in the diff fluid...

If I had to guess, my car is set up relatively soft for daily driving, so I think it was just being able to drive over curbs on track and the inside slick hooking up on the other side of the curb after being in the air for a split second.

More torque isn’t going to help that situation, so I stay away from slicks and minimize my curb hopping now.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Mine wasn’t part of the diff recall. I was getting a low level driveline hum and vibration and low and behold, there was metal in the diff fluid...

If I had to guess, my car is set up relatively soft for daily driving, so I think it was just being able to drive over curbs on track and the inside slick hooking up on the other side of the curb after being in the air for a split second.

More torque isn’t going to help that situation, so I stay away from slicks and minimize my curb hopping now.

Oh dang so your new generation diff had issues too, not exactly confidence inspiring lol. What slicks do you use on track?

Was it replaced under warranty?