[-Eidos]

Long story short, I am running a Speedtech Stage 3 turbo kit with the BorgWarner 7670 turbo right now (check signature for other mods). In partnering with Bend Calibration to dial in my build, we've encountered fueling roadblocks. We're now reaching the limits of the HPFP AND fuel injectors on a conservative tune at about 540WHP on E40.

Someone with the same set-up can probably get more fueling by leaning it out a bit and pushing the HPFP and injectors harder, but that's not the goal here.


I expected the LPFP/HPFP limitation going into the build - not so much the injector limitation. When looking at other high powered builds you'll see people either go for port-injection or water-methanol injection to circumvent these issues.

Fortunately my team consists of very like-minded people that support me on this. I don't want to go the port-injection or water-methanol injection route for a plethora of reasons, and so we're taking a different path. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can't say too much right now, but Bend Calibration has partnered with vendors to beta test an upgraded solution so that we can remain direct-injected only that I am fortunate to help out with - that's the HPFP solution.

Also in parallel, we're looking to dial in a solution for upgraded fuel injectors as well. They're from Bosch.


The goal is to push the development on this platform so we can create a framework for future owners to hit their power goals, while remaining as daily friendly as possible. Heck, I'm running flex fuel right now! It's pretty sweet. More ethanol = more power. Less ethanol = less power. Pretty simple, right?

Stay tuned.


And since everyone here likes dyno graphs, attached are three runs, (5th gear, 4th gear, and 5th gear) on about four or five revisions ago (Still running a catted downpipe by the way):

[cookiesowns]

It’s been a great pleasure working with you on this platform.

In all honesty your car makes me miss my OG M2 quite a bit. It’s the exact same route I would have taken had I kept the car.

[Daleb]

Wow so quite a bit off the claimed 650whp potential of this stage 2 pump.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by Daleb

Wow so quite a bit off the claimed 650whp potential of this stage 2 pump.

I'd say it really depends on the set-up and tuning strategy, which Dorch does mention in their product description.

cookiesowns can chime in on the details, but the current tune is conservative.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by Daleb

Wow so quite a bit off the claimed 650whp potential of this stage 2 pump.

Actually Dorch rates it conservatively. We made over 500WHP on ethanol with a rather rich lambda in comparison to how some people like to tune.

And remember their 650 rating is on pump gas without ethanol. Ethanol really does take a lot more fuel volume to run compared to pump gas. Stage 2 pump is rated for up to 500WHP on E85. We made more than that.

Had we had time to do race gas I would think we could tap out the turbo rather quick on the stage 2 setup with stock injector.

[Daleb]

The descriptions vary between stage 1 and 2 pumps which lead to a little confusion. They rate the stage 1 upto 550whp on an ethanol blend whereas stage 2 is just up to ‘650whp’, obviously dependant on a few factors as you mention.

You’d expect to make more than 500whp before the pump runs out of volume since you’re running e40 rather than e85.

Sounds like a really cool project and looking forward to the updates 👍🏼

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by Daleb

The descriptions vary between stage 1 and 2 pumps which lead to a little confusion. They rate the stage 1 upto 550whp on an ethanol blend whereas stage 2 is just up to ‘650whp’, obviously dependant on a few factors as you mention.

You’d expect to make more than 500whp before the pump runs out of volume since you’re running e40 rather than e85.

Sounds like a really cool project and looking forward to the updates 👍🏼

Could be a misinterpretation. Dorch’ website specifically says full E85 up to 500WHP for N55 stage 2.

And again we can choose to make more than 530 had we ran the car a bit leaner

https://dorchengineering.com/product/n55-stage-2-hpfp-upgrade/

[Daleb]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

Could be a misinterpretation. Dorch’ website specifically says full E85 up to 500WHP for N55 stage 2.

And again we can choose to make more than 530 had we ran the car a bit leaner

https://dorchengineering.com/product...-hpfp-upgrade/

For sure, I agree it does say that however the point i was maybe trying to get at is the fuel volume for e40 wont be quite as much as e85.

We know that e85 isn't required to make 500whp, especially on a nicely sized turbo like this project is using. Running e85 in that situation would be for convenience and save the hassle of mixing.

https://dorchengineering.com/product...-hpfp-upgrade/

'This is a complete plug-and-play kit to support up to 550whp (this number can vary quite a bit depending on tuning strategy and the blend of ethanol)'

Part of the description for the stage 1 pump implies 550whp is possible on an ethanol blend, I understand this would most likely require a lower e mix combined with a leaner afr.

I personally run their stage 1 pump and have had some conversation with Chris so this isn't me trying to bash them, great company and products. It's interesting to see the real world findings.

Out of interest how much more power do you think you could make leaning out the afr?

[clutchdj]

What are you doing for traction. Street tires?
Tire spec and width? Thanks

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by clutchdj

What are you doing for traction. Street tires?
Tire spec and width? Thanks

Phase two will be getting this oriented for the track. The car isn't set up as a low rpm torque monster by any means (Although we can tune for it...) and I'm not doing anything from a dig. Some highway fun occasionally.

Currently the car is on Michelin PS4S'. 255x35 fronts, 285x35 rears.
Once I get my coil overs and camber plates in (TCKline's), I'll have to reassess my wheel and tire set-up.

To be frank with you, I haven't put as much thought into suspension and traction as the priority right now is getting this fueling set-up working. In parallel, I'm getting a CSF radiator installed and a Mosselman thermostat, which should help with additional cooling.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by Daleb

For sure, I agree it does say that however the point i was maybe trying to get at is the fuel volume for e40 wont be quite as much as e85.

We know that e85 isn't required to make 500whp, especially on a nicely sized turbo like this project is using. Running e85 in that situation would be for convenience and save the hassle of mixing.

https://dorchengineering.com/product...-hpfp-upgrade/

'This is a complete plug-and-play kit to support up to 550whp (this number can vary quite a bit depending on tuning strategy and the blend of ethanol)'

Part of the description for the stage 1 pump implies 550whp is possible on an ethanol blend, I understand this would most likely require a lower e mix combined with a leaner afr.

I personally run their stage 1 pump and have had some conversation with Chris so this isn't me trying to bash them, great company and products. It's interesting to see the real world findings.

Out of interest how much more power do you think you could make leaning out the afr?

Chris probably needs to update the page for stage 1 then to have similar verbiage as stage 2. I can see the confusion now.

Nope, E85 isn't required at all. @-Eidos's car according to logs should put down around low 400s conservatively on pump gas with room to go ( ACN91 ) 480 will be easy with good 93octane

We like to err on the safer side for him as he intends on tracking in the future.

On this current fuel setup, most likely another 30whp or so dyno jet numbers before we want to call it quits on E50.

Full E85 won't make that much more power if any at all due to the fuel demands like you mentioned. The flex fuel curve for him is E50 max power, and higher concentrations will run more timing with less boost.

The EFR7670 will become the limiting factor, nonetheless the stock block past 650+

Same car, different tune ( slightly more aggressive than the one in OP ). Note that this mustang seems to be calibrated more to a dynojet number. Ran in AWD mode ( linked rollers )

[mike@x-ph.com]

Thank you for sharing your results OP

[-Eidos]

Some updates after our four hour dyno session today to dial in fueling:

1) We're flowing way too much fuel. This is a good problem to have, but because we're the first ones to actually tune on this set-up (Upgraded injectors and Stage 3 HPFP) we spent a lot of today chasing fueling variables and soft limiters.

2) The injectors have enough room left for at least 700WHP on full E85 and the HPFP upgrade has a lot more in it as well (At our fairly rich lambda targets).

EDIT: Have to emphasize here that using the EU5 injectors on a EU6 car will not work unless you code for it and have a custom tune that adjusts for it properly. Not doing so will run the risk of running too lean or too rich and your car will not run well or at all.

3) At 44,000 miles on the stock factory clutch (6MT), we got consistent clutch slippage at 570 wheel torque in the mid range, so we had to taper it down for now.

Solution: Spec clutch upgrade incoming??


4) At an ethanol mixture of E76, we had a misfire up top at 630WHP and climbing - decided to stop as we did not have time to install new coils, and plugs.

Short term solution: We lowered the higher rpm torque targets for now.

Long term solution: Will gap down to .019" and replace coil packs with new ones.


5) We did it. We hit the goal of 600WHP on DI at a high ethanol mixture of E76. There's still a ton of more room to play with, but all in all it was a successful day.


Attached are three runs.

The first run is cookiesowns's old M2 (on stock tune + FMIC + M Performance Exhaust) on CA 91 octane gas on a different dyno jet (for comparison purposes - I get that it's not apples to apples).

The second run is the run before we started hitting 570~ wheel torque with clutch slippage.

The final run is where we ended up calling it for the day after hitting 600+WHP for 5+ runs (Kept power targets the same, but was cleaning up fueling).

Next steps:

1) Finalize fuel control
2) Upgrade factory clutch
3) Clean up power/torque curves and push it further. Per my tuner, cookiesowns , car looks healthier than ever so we can push it further for science.

Also, I can't thank cookiesowns enough for the precision and diligence throughout this process and Commanderwiggin 's second set of eyes on the logs. The project is not over yet, but I think we're heading in the right direction.

PS: I think someone half-convinced me to build an N55 capable of redlining at 8K RPM. Unfortunately, the BorgWarner 7670 won't have enough in it to flow past 7K RPM so I'd have to go bigger turbo and incur more lag. 650WHP on the current set-up with a really fast spooling big turbo or an 800+WHP, 8K redlining monster. Decisions decisions.

[Daleb]

Great results, power band looks awesome! Would love that with my DCT however being rhd rules out most stage 3 kits.

Were m5 injectors ever considered or compatible? I believe some s55 guys use these. Great that yous have managed to stay direct injection with the latests upgrades and at a high ethanol content too.

After you’re next round of upgrades it will be cool to see what the 7670 will do. Have you considered running MILVS to add an 1mm of lift to the intake cam?

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by Daleb

Were m5 injectors ever considered or compatible? I believe some s55 guys use these. Great that yous have managed to stay direct injection with the latests upgrades and at a high ethanol content too.

Bosch EU5 S63TU (The V8 ones) injectors were considered and installed! We are running them right now. They are physically the same, but have a different spray pattern. cookiesowns was able to use some tuning magic to make it work.

Originally Posted by Daleb

After you’re next round of upgrades it will be cool to see what the 7670 will do.

It's the perfect daily right now. I don't want to run the turbo and motor into the ground, but the power band should look a lot better once the clutch is in and we get better ignition.

Originally Posted by Daleb

Have you considered running MILVS to add an 1mm of lift to the intake cam?

I have considered it, but at this point I think I'd rather just make the jump to building the motor.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by Daleb

Great results, power band looks awesome! Would love that with my DCT however being rhd rules out most stage 3 kits.

Were m5 injectors ever considered or compatible? I believe some s55 guys use these. Great that yous have managed to stay direct injection with the latests upgrades and at a high ethanol content too.

After you’re next round of upgrades it will be cool to see what the 7670 will do. Have you considered running MILVS to add an 1mm of lift to the intake cam?

It won't do much more, we're at basically sea level here, and already we're maxing the duty on the 7670 to keep up with boost demand depending on where we are in the power band. We saw the power start to dip in the top end past a certain power number.

Luckily the Wagner Evo 3 is a hell of a FMIC.

[boldy1]

What tuning platform are you using

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by boldy1

What tuning platform are you using

ECUTek Tuned by BendCalibration

[GeraldM2]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

Long story short, I am running a Speedtech Stage 3 turbo kit with the BorgWarner 7670 turbo right now (check signature for other mods). In partnering with Bend Calibration to dial in my build, we've encountered fueling roadblocks. We're now reaching the limits of the HPFP AND fuel injectors on a conservative tune at about 540WHP on E40.

Someone with the same set-up can probably get more fueling by leaning it out a bit and pushing the HPFP and injectors harder, but that's not the goal here.


I expected the LPFP/HPFP limitation going into the build - not so much the injector limitation. When looking at other high powered builds you'll see people either go for port-injection or water-methanol injection to circumvent these issues.

Fortunately my team consists of very like-minded people that support me on this. I don't want to go the port-injection or water-methanol injection route for a plethora of reasons, and so we're taking a different path. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can't say too much right now, but Bend Calibration has partnered with vendors to beta test an upgraded solution so that we can remain direct-injected only that I am fortunate to help out with - that's the HPFP solution.

Also in parallel, we're looking to dial in a solution for upgraded fuel injectors as well. They're from Bosch.


The goal is to push the development on this platform so we can create a framework for future owners to hit their power goals, while remaining as daily friendly as possible. Heck, I'm running flex fuel right now! It's pretty sweet. More ethanol = more power. Less ethanol = less power. Pretty simple, right?

Stay tuned.


And since everyone here likes dyno graphs, attached are three runs, (5th gear, 4th gear, and 5th gear) on about four or five revisions ago (Still running a catted downpipe by the way):

Have you ever encountered the throttle stuttering issue some people have had? If you have what have you done to overcome it?

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by GeraldM2

Have you ever encountered the throttle stuttering issue some people have had? If you have what have you done to overcome it?

Drivability is one of the very first things we focus on. We work closely with not only ECUtek but also Dorch Engineering on their fuel pumps.

Like mentioned in previous threads there are a lot of things that go into calibrating the pump to every car.

Different cars have different OE strategies and the key is to understand how everything interacts before making changes.

Which is also why we were relatively comfortable working on a car and pushing it even though it’s the first car to run this unreleased pump, and also upgraded injectors to go with it.

[Daleb]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

Bosch EU5 S63TU (The V8 ones) injectors were considered and installed! We are running them right now. They are physically the same, but have a different spray pattern. cookiesowns was able to use some tuning magic to make it work.

It's the perfect daily right now. I don't want to run the turbo and motor into the ground, but the power band should look a lot better once the clutch is in and we get better ignition.

I have considered it, but at this point I think I'd rather just make the jump to building the motor.

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

It won't do much more, we're at basically sea level here, and already we're maxing the duty on the 7670 to keep up with boost demand depending on where we are in the power band. We saw the power start to dip in the top end past a certain power number.

Luckily the Wagner Evo 3 is a hell of a FMIC.

You definitely can’t complain with a safe 600whp, flex fuel capabilities and all on DI, sounds like the perfect daily to me. Great work.

[M235iHUSTLE]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

Bosch EU5 S63TU (The V8 ones) injectors were considered and installed! We are running them right now. They are physically the same, but have a different spray pattern. cookiesowns was able to use some tuning magic to make it work.




It's the perfect daily right now. I don't want to run the turbo and motor into the ground, but the power band should look a lot better once the clutch is in and we get better ignition.



I have considered it, but at this point I think I'd rather just make the jump to building the motor.

This is great news for us with upgraded turbos looking to upgrade the DI system. How could I tell if my car needs EU5 or EU6?
M235i owner here.

Also, could you tell me more about the stage 3 HPFP? I only see a stage 2 on Dorch’s website.