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      03-22-2016, 09:27 PM   #1
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M2 or 996 C4S

I have an order in for HEA M2, currently in production. Also an offer from my Mom to purchase her cream puff of a Carrera, '03 6sp 911 C4S, silver on black, with only 16K miles. Completely stock, babied and regularly serviced. Offer to buy at KBB which is well under market value for that car in that condition.

To afford the M2 I'll be handing in my wife's X1, she and the kids will run my MK5 TDI through the summer/fall till winter upgrade or until VW buys it back. M2 would be 4-season DD.

For the 911, I could easily keep all three cars, continue DD the TDI and leave the 911 for fair weather days.

Note, my commute is about 40 miles one-way.

I'm leaning heavily one way but curious the thoughts of other enthusiasts.
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      03-22-2016, 10:05 PM   #2
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Why don't you drive an M235 and the 911 a bit. I don't think that 911 is going to be too impressive to be blunt. Do lots of research on the 996 Engines as well. It might be best to just sell it.
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      03-22-2016, 10:36 PM   #3
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You buy the C4S under KBB and I'll take the 996 C4S right at KBB.


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      03-22-2016, 11:00 PM   #4
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996 is a ticking time bomb, I have several friends who are well into 5 figures in repair and maintenance costs.
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      03-22-2016, 11:12 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
996 is a ticking time bomb, I have several friends who are well into 5 figures in repair and maintenance costs.
Exactly. I sold by last Porsche when I got a $10,000 guesstimate to freshen up the manual transmission. The car was worth about $17,000. It's probably worth $50,000 now though. It was Air Cooled, but I don't know if the 996 will ever go up in value like the air cooled cars. Look at the 928 values. They've been flat for 20 years.
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      03-22-2016, 11:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3tekcorps View Post
Exactly. I sold by last Porsche when I got a $10,000 guesstimate to freshen up the manual transmission. The car was worth about $17,000. It's probably worth $50,000 now though. It was Air Cooled, but I don't know if the 996 will ever go up in value like the air cooled cars. Look at the 928 values. They've been flat for 20 years.
Friend has a 996 turbo and it's insane. Multiple radiators that leak guaranteed, $3k to fix. Simple spark plug change is $800-1k from an indie because the engine has to be dropped to reduce labor hours. So many little things get you and then it's "well, labor sucks so much on these while we're in here we should do x, y, and z...."

A non-turbo will not be as bad, but then you have your IMS problems to worry about. A lot of guys buy these cars thinking they can own a P car for cheap only to be surprised by $20k bills. Make sure you can afford it.
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      03-22-2016, 11:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Friend has a 996 turbo and it's insane. Multiple radiators that leak guaranteed, $3k to fix. Simple spark plug change is $800-1k from an indie because the engine has to be dropped to reduce labor hours. So many little things get you and then it's "well, labor sucks so much on these while we're in here we should do x, y, and z...."

A non-turbo will not be as bad, but then you have your IMS problems to worry about. A lot of guys buy these cars thinking they can own a P car for cheap only to be surprised by $20k bills. Make sure you can afford it.
Yep. I'm pretty down on the brand these days. If I recall the 996 had some engine failures that really hurt the series value. I'm sure other guys will know more about them. I wasn't into the water cooled stuff, but picked it up in passing. I'd rather have a 135 and I have zero BMW brand loyalty so I'm not biased there.
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      03-23-2016, 12:37 AM   #8
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From my 20 years of various 911 ownership, also just air-cooled, he's what I've picked up.

1) Porsche always put the motors with the best initial dyno performance in the C4S cars due to the extra load of the AWD. In a 996, this matters very little.

2) The barely driven, cream puff cars are most susceptible to future failures. The bearings are oil fed. The higher the revs, the more oiling.

3) The M2 is quicker than the 996 and 997 Carrera S cars.

4) Even if you swap out the bearing with a newer better designed one, You'll never get your money out of it. Unless Mom sells it to you for $15k or less. If that is the number...get the C4S. Do the clutch, the RMS and the LN Engineering IMS bearing at the same time. DRIVE IT.
If Mom's price in is the mid 20's, have her trade it in or something.

5) Nothing drives like a 911.
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      03-23-2016, 09:06 AM   #9
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M2 all day.

Note: this should be moved to M2 vs.... sub-forum.
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      03-23-2016, 10:29 AM   #10
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Thanks for the thoughts. Pretty much where my head is too.

911 wins for the visceral engagement and up-front cost. Long term ownership is questionable. The M2 wins for overall ownership, performance and reliability.

The IMS in the 911 has been repaired. Assuming ownership of this car would also include full evaluation and repair of any other aged parts or known weak spots. I have the car for today and tomorrow, the drive is like nothing else, albeit unrefined and a bit shaky from warped rotors. The noise, though, that noise from the flat six behind you is intoxicating.

The biggest hesitation on the 911 is the inability to enjoy it with my whole family. The moments I look forward to the most with the M2 is cruising to the shore house with the wife and kids onboard. While I may be able to squeeze the kids in the 911, I wouldn't beyond a trip around the block.
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      03-23-2016, 10:47 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
Thanks for the thoughts. Pretty much where my head is too.

911 wins for the visceral engagement and up-front cost. Long term ownership is questionable. The M2 wins for overall ownership, performance and reliability.

The IMS in the 911 has been repaired. Assuming ownership of this car would also include full evaluation and repair of any other aged parts or known weak spots. I have the car for today and tomorrow, the drive is like nothing else, albeit unrefined and a bit shaky from warped rotors. The noise, though, that noise from the flat six behind you is intoxicating.

The biggest hesitation on the 911 is the inability to enjoy it with my whole family. The moments I look forward to the most with the M2 is cruising to the shore house with the wife and kids onboard. While I may be able to squeeze the kids in the 911, I wouldn't beyond a trip around the block.
Watch those old tires that look fine, but are 10 years old. They will get you in trouble really fast.
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      03-23-2016, 10:49 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3tekcorps
Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
Thanks for the thoughts. Pretty much where my head is too.

911 wins for the visceral engagement and up-front cost. Long term ownership is questionable. The M2 wins for overall ownership, performance and reliability.

The IMS in the 911 has been repaired. Assuming ownership of this car would also include full evaluation and repair of any other aged parts or known weak spots. I have the car for today and tomorrow, the drive is like nothing else, albeit unrefined and a bit shaky from warped rotors. The noise, though, that noise from the flat six behind you is intoxicating.

The biggest hesitation on the 911 is the inability to enjoy it with my whole family. The moments I look forward to the most with the M2 is cruising to the shore house with the wife and kids onboard. While I may be able to squeeze the kids in the 911, I wouldn't beyond a trip around the block.
Watch those old tires that look fine, but are 10 years old. They will get you in trouble really fast.
Thanks for the warning. Tires have been replaced a few times. These are 3 years old at most.
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      03-23-2016, 11:01 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
Thanks for the warning. Tires have been replaced a few times. These are 3 years old at most.
You sure mom hasn't heat cycled them out at the track?
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      03-23-2016, 12:42 PM   #14
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If you're not in love with the C4S, then sell it now while the market is still hot and get what you really want.
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      03-23-2016, 03:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3tekcorps View Post
Exactly. I sold by last Porsche when I got a $10,000 guesstimate to freshen up the manual transmission. The car was worth about $17,000. It's probably worth $50,000 now though. It was Air Cooled, but I don't know if the 996 will ever go up in value like the air cooled cars. Look at the 928 values. They've been flat for 20 years.
I would say the later versions of the 928 (S4, GT, GTS) have increased a bit in value as well.

I just did the IMS, waterpump and coolant tank this weekend on my uncles car. It was a little difficult because of how everything is crammed together. However, it is a great car to drive. The 996s have bottomed in value, The M2 has not. I'd drive both and make your decisions. Also, be aware that people on these forums are going to be slightly biased and a huge portion of them have not worked on their own cars.
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      03-23-2016, 04:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EEBreh View Post
I would say the later versions of the 928 (S4, GT, GTS) have increased a bit in value as well.

I just did the IMS, waterpump and coolant tank this weekend on my uncles car. It was a little difficult because of how everything is crammed together. However, it is a great car to drive. The 996s have bottomed in value, The M2 has not. I'd drive both and make your decisions. Also, be aware that people on these forums are going to be slightly biased and a huge portion of them have not worked on their own cars.
I really don't think they have at all. I purchased a minty 87 928S4 in 1997 for about $15,000. It was a low mile cream puff and I bought it from a dealer who cut me no deal.

Sold it to a friend for what I think was fair around 2002 for what I paid for it, which was about what they seemed to be selling for still. He just sold it in 2012 for around $15,000.

It had about 60k on it by then and was very clean with no history. A quick look on ebay today and I think I could buy another one for the same price I paid for it in 1997.

I think they might pop soon, but they are off to a slow start. This one ate up about $7,000 in repairs and maintenance during our ownership. He thought it would sell for $20,000 or more, but it never sold for months and months. There seemed to be almost no interest in the car. I think it might have gone below $15,000 even. That was the last price point I saw on it and didn't want to know considering he just dumped a ton of money into it the year before he sold it.
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      03-28-2016, 01:33 PM   #17
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i used to own a 996 C4S, 6 spd manual for 6 years. It was a great car, even a great winter car with snow tires. I love it but its no M2.

The 996 will feel old and slow by comparison. The C4S does have great steering feel and great brakes. I have an M2 on order as well. I would still take the M2.
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      03-28-2016, 04:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceCarDriver View Post
i used to own a 996 C4S, 6 spd manual for 6 years. It was a great car, even a great winter car with snow tires. I love it but its no M2.

The 996 will feel old and slow by comparison. The C4S does have great steering feel and great brakes. I have an M2 on order as well. I would still take the M2.
Thanks for the reference. I had the car a few days last week. It's blissful to drive, but not something I could live with everyday, it's age is prevalent...engaging yet less refined.

Fortunately, if I don't take the car, it's not going anywhere...will remain in my parents' stable. I simply can't pass on this opportunity to pick up an early M2. I passed on the chance to own the 1M, I passed on the M235 two years ago in anticipation of M2...I'm not passing again.
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      03-29-2016, 06:43 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
Thanks for the reference. I had the car a few days last week. It's blissful to drive, but not something I could live with everyday, it's age is prevalent...engaging yet less refined.

Fortunately, if I don't take the car, it's not going anywhere...will remain in my parents' stable. I simply can't pass on this opportunity to pick up an early M2. I passed on the chance to own the 1M, I passed on the M235 two years ago in anticipation of M2...I'm not passing again.
I think that's the right call. If you can get your hands on an M2, go for it. Now if you said the car was a 997.2 GT3 RS or something, that'd be a different story
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      03-29-2016, 07:29 AM   #20
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It's one of the reasons I'm here and not going for a third 911.I've previously had my ass burnt twice and one of those was a 964 with catastrophic IMS failure and vowed never again after the second time.

You know what you're getting with a brand new car,like warranty,reliability etc and like what has been said,the M2 will be so much better in many ways.
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      02-19-2021, 07:53 AM   #21
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blast from the past bump
I've been looking at a 2004 C4S cab and wondering if I should do it. Any one else care to share an opinion?
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      02-19-2021, 08:11 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DroneandDone View Post
blast from the past bump
I've been looking at a 2004 C4S cab and wondering if I should do it. Any one else care to share an opinion?
I highly recommend an invasive PPI including a bore scope of all 6 cylinders. These M96/97 engines are failing at an exponential rate, it seems, as the years pass. So even if there's no bore scoring now, that doesn't mean it will eventually happen. Plus you have the IMS bearing issue with the M96.

My advice, go with a 997.2 or newer.
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