[AdventureNoodle]

Hey guys,

When y'all are running the BM3 E30 OTS map does anybody get crazy overboost? I'm running a pure stage 2 and this is what a WOT log looks like for me:

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62c1...729b427d92c5c4

As you can see, at one point I'm hitting 27.4 PSI before it comes back down to reality.

Turbo specific mods:
- Pure Stage 2
- TurboSmart VR11 Dual Port
- Pure Inlet

Let me know what you guys think!

Thanks!

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AdventureNoodle

Hey guys,

When y'all are running the BM3 E30 OTS map does anybody get crazy overboost? I'm running a pure stage 2 and this is what a WOT log looks like for me:

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62c1...729b427d92c5c4

As you can see, at one point I'm hitting 27.4 PSI before it comes back down to reality.

Turbo specific mods:
- Pure Stage 2
- TurboSmart VR11 Dual Port
- Pure Inlet

Let me know what you guys think!

Thanks!

It seems like you're getting some knocking in cylinder 3 as shown by the timing being pulled, this leads to the throttle body closing and the boost spiking as a result (when the throttle body closes there is no where for the air to go so pressure increases). After the knock is gone the throttle body opens back up and boost once again reaches the target.

So I would not call this "overboosting" I would call this knock control via the ecu closing the throttle body and pulling timing leading to a surge in boost - and this surge is expected and not out of the norm.


What does concern me is how lean you are running even to redline it doesn't dip below 13 until the gear change. IMO this is way too lean.

[AdventureNoodle]

Originally Posted by F87source

It seems like you're getting some knocking in cylinder 3 as shown by the timing being pulled, this leads to the throttle body closing and the boost spiking as a result (when the throttle body closes there is no where for the air to go so pressure increases). After the knock is gone the throttle body opens back up and boost once again reaches the target.

So I would not call this "overboosting" I would call this knock control via the ecu closing the throttle body and pulling timing leading to a surge in boost - and this surge is expected and not out of the norm.


What does concern me is how lean you are running even to redline it doesn't dip below 13 until the gear change. IMO this is way too lean.

I should mention that I am on like E40+ which is why it's so lean. This is an OTS map after all so I'm not super super concerned about the Lambda values. But regardless of that one timing correction, this is pretty consistent with how it is even if there's no corrections. All the BM3 OTS maps spike up in the middle of the rev range and then come back to reality.

For example, here's a 93 octane pull I did right after on the same fuel (I am flex fuel btw):

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62c1...0b437714e5deed

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AdventureNoodle

I should mention that I am on like E40+ which is why it's so lean. This is an OTS map after all so I'm not super super concerned about the Lambda values. But regardless of that one timing correction, this is pretty consistent with how it is even if there's no corrections. All the BM3 OTS maps spike up in the middle of the rev range and then come back to reality.

For example, here's a 93 octane pull I did right after on the same fuel (I am flex fuel btw):

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62c1...0b437714e5deed

Ok first off I would like to say I'm not trying to sound like or be a douche bag, but you're still confused about lambda and Afr. I'll write a detailed explanation tomorrow because it'll probably take me an hour to do so, but to summarize: ethanol and gasoline target very very similar lambdas, but ethanol targets richer lambdas to run properly vs. gasoline (and the targets get closer to gasoline the closer the mix is to gasoline). This means you can technically use the gasoline Afr scales and targets to tune for ethanol and be very very close to spot on, however since ethanol runs richer lambdas than gas you will need afrs to be richer (this applies to Lambda and Afr).

Note BM3's gauges output in afr calibrated to the gasoline scale, this means your afrs are calibrated for gasoline. Thus your afrs even on a gasoline standard is imo extremely lean and imo unsafe (as per conventional tuning knowledge that running too lean can result in engine damage and when in doubt richer is safer despite making less power) for longevity on a performance tune running that much power, now factoring in ethanol requires richer targets than gasoline you're way too lean. So you're mistaken, the more more ethanol you have mixed in the richer you should be (lambda scale or pump gas scale the same applies). Imo from what I am used to in JDM cars tapering to a 13 afr at redline under 24 psi of boost probably pushing 500whp+ is straight up dangerous, and imo a garbage tune. Now this may not be completely the case on a modern direct injected BMW (DI allows you to run a bit leaner as fuel is going right into the combustion chamber) but it is still extremely lean by tuning standards imo (you might be literally on the limit for lean Afr targets - iirc gasolines lean targets for max power is 13.2 e85 is like 12.7 on the gas scale so a mix of e40 might be 13 ish), and honestly I don't like this for a longevity point of view as running lean can induce more knock than needed and it can result in higher cylinder temps than needed which is why you generally don't want to run so lean. Even BMW tuned the m2 to taper to 12.0:1 Afr stock near redline because they understood a higher output n55 that was expected to be tracked needed richer afrs to prevent long term damage.



Imo you should be concerned about lambda values if you car about your car, because imo 13 is so so lean for 500 whp. But Im no tuner so feel free to take my "non expertise advice" listed here and above with a grain of salt, but if it were me there is a 0% chance I'd ever let my car run like this.



Boost really shouldn't be spiking for no reason, it might during gear changes as the throttle body can close between shifts. But in the middle of a pull it shouldn't do that unless there is a knock event for instance causing the throttle body to close, or maybe traction control intervention which can also close the throttle body.

[Ata_T1T]

Originally Posted by F87source

Ok first off I would like to say I'm not trying to sound like or be a douche bag, but you're still confused about lambda and Afr. I'll write a detailed explanation tomorrow because it'll probably take me an hour to do so, but to summarize: ethanol and gasoline target very very similar lambdas, but ethanol targets richer lambdas to run properly vs. gasoline (and the targets get closer to gasoline the closer the mix is to gasoline). This means you can technically use the gasoline Afr scales and targets to tune for ethanol and be very very close to spot on, however since ethanol runs richer lambdas than gas you will need afrs to be richer (this applies to Lambda and Afr).

Note BM3's gauges output in afr calibrated to the gasoline scale, this means your afrs are calibrated for gasoline. Thus your afrs even on a gasoline standard is imo extremely lean and imo unsafe (as per conventional tuning knowledge that running too lean can result in engine damage and when in doubt richer is safer despite making less power) for longevity on a performance tune running that much power, now factoring in ethanol requires richer targets than gasoline you're way too lean. So you're mistaken, the more more ethanol you have mixed in the richer you should be (lambda scale or pump gas scale the same applies). Imo from what I am used to in JDM cars tapering to a 13 afr at redline under 24 psi of boost probably pushing 500whp+ is straight up dangerous, and imo a garbage tune. Now this may not be completely the case on a modern direct injected BMW (DI allows you to run a bit leaner as fuel is going right into the combustion chamber) but it is still extremely lean by tuning standards imo (you might be literally on the limit for lean Afr targets - iirc gasolines lean targets for max power is 13.2 e85 is like 12.7 on the gas scale so a mix of e40 might be 13 ish), and honestly I don't like this for a longevity point of view as running lean can induce more knock than needed and it can result in higher cylinder temps than needed which is why you generally don't want to run so lean. Even BMW tuned the m2 to taper to 12.0:1 Afr stock near redline because they understood a higher output n55 that was expected to be tracked needed richer afrs to prevent long term damage.



Imo you should be concerned about lambda values if you car about your car, because imo 13 is so so lean for 500 whp. But Im no tuner so feel free to take my "non expertise advice" listed here and above with a grain of salt, but if it were me there is a 0% chance I'd ever let my car run like this.



Boost really shouldn't be spiking for no reason, it might during gear changes as the throttle body can close between shifts. But in the middle of a pull it shouldn't do that unless there is a knock event for instance causing the throttle body to close, or maybe traction control intervention which can also close the throttle body.

Sorta incorrect. I agree he's way too lean. It's just nature of BM3s tuning style. Aggresive and risky. Also if he's on stock HPFP which I believe he is.. there's no way to make it work with e30 unless they just run lean as fuck cause the HPFP can't supply enough fuel. I can make my hpfp crash on pump gas if I wanted to run the AFRs I truly want to for safety reasons.. so I just opted to run less boost.

The timing pull he has is nothing. That kind of correction does not induce throttle closure, it needs to be way stronger. His throttle is closing due to load actual and boost going way over target and the car is correcting it.

He's experiencing this because I believe the OTS E30 map is meant for stock turbo, he's running pure stage 2 so the compressor characteristics will be different and needs to be tuned properly. He needs a custom tune with a turbo that's not stock.

[Ata_T1T]

Originally Posted by AdventureNoodle

I should mention that I am on like E40+ which is why it's so lean. This is an OTS map after all so I'm not super super concerned about the Lambda values. But regardless of that one timing correction, this is pretty consistent with how it is even if there's no corrections. All the BM3 OTS maps spike up in the middle of the rev range and then come back to reality.

For example, here's a 93 octane pull I did right after on the same fuel (I am flex fuel btw):

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62c1...0b437714e5deed

Even on 93 you have hella overboost... its because your on a tune meant for stock turbo

[AdventureNoodle]

Originally Posted by Ata_T1T

Sorta incorrect. I agree he's way too lean. It's just nature of BM3s tuning style. Aggresive and risky. Also if he's on stock HPFP which I believe he is.. there's no way to make it work with e30 unless they just run lean as fuck cause the HPFP can't supply enough fuel. I can make my hpfp crash on pump gas if I wanted to run the AFRs I truly want to for safety reasons.. so I just opted to run less boost.

The timing pull he has is nothing. That kind of correction does not induce throttle closure, it needs to be way stronger. His throttle is closing due to load actual and boost going way over target and the car is correcting it.

He's experiencing this because I believe the OTS E30 map is meant for stock turbo, he's running pure stage 2 so the compressor characteristics will be different and needs to be tuned properly. He needs a custom tune with a turbo that's not stock.

So I am on a Dorch Stage 2 HPFP and a Spool Stage 3 LPFP. I also have Nostrum Stage 1 injectors, so I have the fueling required to handle anything really, or so I believe lol

As for the tune being meant for a stock turbo, Halim did mention that this tune is good for a Pure Stage 2. So yeah, still confused about the overboost

[AdventureNoodle]

Originally Posted by F87source

Ok first off I would like to say I'm not trying to sound like or be a douche bag, but you're still confused about lambda and Afr. I'll write a detailed explanation tomorrow because it'll probably take me an hour to do so, but to summarize: ethanol and gasoline target very very similar lambdas, but ethanol targets richer lambdas to run properly vs. gasoline (and the targets get closer to gasoline the closer the mix is to gasoline). This means you can technically use the gasoline Afr scales and targets to tune for ethanol and be very very close to spot on, however since ethanol runs richer lambdas than gas you will need afrs to be richer (this applies to Lambda and Afr).

Note BM3's gauges output in afr calibrated to the gasoline scale, this means your afrs are calibrated for gasoline. Thus your afrs even on a gasoline standard is imo extremely lean and imo unsafe (as per conventional tuning knowledge that running too lean can result in engine damage and when in doubt richer is safer despite making less power) for longevity on a performance tune running that much power, now factoring in ethanol requires richer targets than gasoline you're way too lean. So you're mistaken, the more more ethanol you have mixed in the richer you should be (lambda scale or pump gas scale the same applies). Imo from what I am used to in JDM cars tapering to a 13 afr at redline under 24 psi of boost probably pushing 500whp+ is straight up dangerous, and imo a garbage tune. Now this may not be completely the case on a modern direct injected BMW (DI allows you to run a bit leaner as fuel is going right into the combustion chamber) but it is still extremely lean by tuning standards imo (you might be literally on the limit for lean Afr targets - iirc gasolines lean targets for max power is 13.2 e85 is like 12.7 on the gas scale so a mix of e40 might be 13 ish), and honestly I don't like this for a longevity point of view as running lean can induce more knock than needed and it can result in higher cylinder temps than needed which is why you generally don't want to run so lean. Even BMW tuned the m2 to taper to 12.0:1 Afr stock near redline because they understood a higher output n55 that was expected to be tracked needed richer afrs to prevent long term damage.



Imo you should be concerned about lambda values if you car about your car, because imo 13 is so so lean for 500 whp. But Im no tuner so feel free to take my "non expertise advice" listed here and above with a grain of salt, but if it were me there is a 0% chance I'd ever let my car run like this.



Boost really shouldn't be spiking for no reason, it might during gear changes as the throttle body can close between shifts. But in the middle of a pull it shouldn't do that unless there is a knock event for instance causing the throttle body to close, or maybe traction control intervention which can also close the throttle body.

Yeah I'm gonna need a detailed explanation of the lambdas. I am getting conflicting information and I clearly don't understand it correctly

[mike@x-ph.com]

Send your logs to PTF; they'll give you a definitive answer on what's happening and how to fix it.

[Ata_T1T]

Originally Posted by AdventureNoodle

So I am on a Dorch Stage 2 HPFP and a Spool Stage 3 LPFP. I also have Nostrum Stage 1 injectors, so I have the fueling required to handle anything really, or so I believe lol

As for the tune being meant for a stock turbo, Halim did mention that this tune is good for a Pure Stage 2. So yeah, still confused about the overboost

Okay so you aren't on stock hpfp. Bm3 tunes just run lean generally. It's why I don't run them.

I disagree with the tune being okay with pure stage 2.. think about it.. how can the compressor characteristic map (its the table you modify for wgdc corrections) be the same for a different sized turbo? The PID system is gona kill itself trying to adjust.

[AdventureNoodle]

Originally Posted by Ata_T1T

Okay so you aren't on stock hpfp. Bm3 tunes just run lean generally. It's why I don't run them.

I disagree with the tune being okay with pure stage 2.. think about it.. how can the compressor characteristic map (its the table you modify for wgdc corrections) be the same for a different sized turbo? The PID system is gona kill itself trying to adjust.

That makes total sense to me now that I think about it. I'm just trying to figure out why it was alright before I swapped the Turbosmart VR11 on - I was running the GFB DV+ previously.

Weird either way, but I'll wait for my tuner to get back to me with a new update

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Ata_T1T

Sorta incorrect. I agree he's way too lean. It's just nature of BM3s tuning style. Aggresive and risky. Also if he's on stock HPFP which I believe he is.. there's no way to make it work with e30 unless they just run lean as fuck cause the HPFP can't supply enough fuel. I can make my hpfp crash on pump gas if I wanted to run the AFRs I truly want to for safety reasons.. so I just opted to run less boost.

The timing pull he has is nothing. That kind of correction does not induce throttle closure, it needs to be way stronger. His throttle is closing due to load actual and boost going way over target and the car is correcting it.

He's experiencing this because I believe the OTS E30 map is meant for stock turbo, he's running pure stage 2 so the compressor characteristics will be different and needs to be tuned properly. He needs a custom tune with a turbo that's not stock.

Huh interesting I thought bm3 had a PS2 map/check box to correct for this so I didn't think this would be an issue. But another reason why I'll never run ots maps.

It's also not great to be seeing timing pulls on e40+, which has enough octane to max out PS2 without issue.

Originally Posted by AdventureNoodle

So I am on a Dorch Stage 2 HPFP and a Spool Stage 3 LPFP. I also have Nostrum Stage 1 injectors, so I have the fueling required to handle anything really, or so I believe lol

As for the tune being meant for a stock turbo, Halim did mention that this tune is good for a Pure Stage 2. So yeah, still confused about the overboost

You should have the fuelling for full e85, but the ots map isn't utilizing it.

Originally Posted by AdventureNoodle

Yeah I'm gonna need a detailed explanation of the lambdas. I am getting conflicting information and I clearly don't understand it correctly

Yeah I'll write it up.

Originally Posted by Ata_T1T

Okay so you aren't on stock hpfp. Bm3 tunes just run lean generally. It's why I don't run them.

I disagree with the tune being okay with pure stage 2.. think about it.. how can the compressor characteristic map (its the table you modify for wgdc corrections) be the same for a different sized turbo? The PID system is gona kill itself trying to adjust.

+1

I agree, but typically hybrid turbos are close enough to stock that adaptation isn't an issue. This is why piggy backs on additive maps were able to work for so long. Not the best way to tune but yeah.

Originally Posted by AdventureNoodle

That makes total sense to me now that I think about it. I'm just trying to figure out why it was alright before I swapped the Turbosmart VR11 on - I was running the GFB DV+ previously.

Weird either way, but I'll wait for my tuner to get back to me with a new update

Now this is interesting and a new data point.

[ericlr1225]

Originally Posted by AdventureNoodle

Hey guys,

When y'all are running the BM3 E30 OTS map does anybody get crazy overboost? I'm running a pure stage 2 and this is what a WOT log looks like for me:

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62c1...729b427d92c5c4

As you can see, at one point I'm hitting 27.4 PSI before it comes back down to reality.

Turbo specific mods:
- Pure Stage 2
- TurboSmart VR11 Dual Port
- Pure Inlet

Let me know what you guys think!

Thanks!

bump, I'm also running TurboSmart Vr11 BOV, Dorch stage 2, but stock turbo, overboost 5psi above target. any news how did you fix your problem? I'm running Stage2 MM, about 35%E.

Thanks!

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Ok first off I would like to say I'm not trying to sound like or be a douche bag, but you're still confused about lambda and Afr. I'll write a detailed explanation tomorrow because it'll probably take me an hour to do so, but to summarize: ethanol and gasoline target very very similar lambdas, but ethanol targets richer lambdas to run properly vs. gasoline (and the targets get closer to gasoline the closer the mix is to gasoline). This means you can technically use the gasoline Afr scales and targets to tune for ethanol and be very very close to spot on, however since ethanol runs richer lambdas than gas you will need afrs to be richer (this applies to Lambda and Afr).

Note BM3's gauges output in afr calibrated to the gasoline scale, this means your afrs are calibrated for gasoline. Thus your afrs even on a gasoline standard is imo extremely lean and imo unsafe (as per conventional tuning knowledge that running too lean can result in engine damage and when in doubt richer is safer despite making less power) for longevity on a performance tune running that much power, now factoring in ethanol requires richer targets than gasoline you're way too lean. So you're mistaken, the more more ethanol you have mixed in the richer you should be (lambda scale or pump gas scale the same applies). Imo from what I am used to in JDM cars tapering to a 13 afr at redline under 24 psi of boost probably pushing 500whp+ is straight up dangerous, and imo a garbage tune. Now this may not be completely the case on a modern direct injected BMW (DI allows you to run a bit leaner as fuel is going right into the combustion chamber) but it is still extremely lean by tuning standards imo (you might be literally on the limit for lean Afr targets - iirc gasolines lean targets for max power is 13.2 e85 is like 12.7 on the gas scale so a mix of e40 might be 13 ish), and honestly I don't like this for a longevity point of view as running lean can induce more knock than needed and it can result in higher cylinder temps than needed which is why you generally don't want to run so lean. Even BMW tuned the m2 to taper to 12.0:1 Afr stock near redline because they understood a higher output n55 that was expected to be tracked needed richer afrs to prevent long term damage.



Imo you should be concerned about lambda values if you car about your car, because imo 13 is so so lean for 500 whp. But Im no tuner so feel free to take my "non expertise advice" listed here and above with a grain of salt, but if it were me there is a 0% chance I'd ever let my car run like this.



Boost really shouldn't be spiking for no reason, it might during gear changes as the throttle body can close between shifts. But in the middle of a pull it shouldn't do that unless there is a knock event for instance causing the throttle body to close, or maybe traction control intervention which can also close the throttle body.

The high afr on the stock tune at high rpm is likely cat overheat protection

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

The high afr on the stock tune at high rpm is likely cat overheat protection

You mean low AFR, Low = rich = cooler EGT's.

BMW likely made it richer not only for cat over heat protection, but engine protection as well. Running lean on track is not only harsh on the cat, but the pistons, head, valve, turbo, and cooling system.

[AdventureNoodle]

Originally Posted by ericlr1225

bump, I'm also running TurboSmart Vr11 BOV, Dorch stage 2, but stock turbo, overboost 5psi above target. any news how did you fix your problem? I'm running Stage2 MM, about 35%E.

Thanks!

I just straight up went custom tune. The OTS tunes are trash. I am also moving away from Bootmod3 as of today. Ecutek showed up in the mail yesterday and I should hopefully have a base map today or tomorrow.

[TheSandman_M2]

Originally Posted by AdventureNoodle

I just straight up went custom tune. The OTS tunes are trash. I am also moving away from Bootmod3 as of today. Ecutek showed up in the mail yesterday and I should hopefully have a base map today or tomorrow.

You going with Bend Calibration?

[AdventureNoodle]

Originally Posted by TheSandman_M2

You going with Bend Calibration?

Yup! They seem to know EVERYTHING and all my M2 buddies recommend them too. From what I understand, they’re the best in the business