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      11-17-2018, 03:27 PM   #1
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Simple setup for lapping?

Hi everyone,

This is a great forum with a ton of great information. I've done a fair bit of research here and looking for a bit of advice.

Looking for a simple setup that'll require minimal tweaking between street and track

- Camber plates (Any suggestions here on brand?)
- Upgraded fluid (Castrol SRF?)
- Race pads (Anything available that can be used on the street as well as the track? Are the BMW M performance pads something that can be dual purpose? I don't mind a bit of noise/dust)
- Alignment specs for both street and track? (Stock wheel/tires to start) Suggestions for a decent dual purpose alignment? (-3 degrees camber seems popular but I wasn't sure on toe/caster etc). I'm willing to sacrifice a bit on track to avoid a lot of tramlining.

I have a fair bit of experience lapping in previous cars and have done autocross as well. (Subaru STI, C5 corvette, various other cars)

Ideally I'd love something I can go have fun driving 8/10ths on the track and drive home with minimal fuss.

Thanks for your help appreciate it.
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      11-17-2018, 04:04 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by ChrisM2 View Post
Hi everyone,

This is a great forum with a ton of great information. I've done a fair bit of research here and looking for a bit of advice.

Looking for a simple setup that'll require minimal tweaking between street and track

- Camber plates (Any suggestions here on brand?)
- Upgraded fluid (Castrol SRF?)
- Race pads (Anything available that can be used on the street as well as the track? Are the BMW M performance pads something that can be dual purpose? I don't mind a bit of noise/dust)
- Alignment specs for both street and track? (Stock wheel/tires to start) Suggestions for a decent dual purpose alignment? (-3 degrees camber seems popular but I wasn't sure on toe/caster etc). I'm willing to sacrifice a bit on track to avoid a lot of tramlining.

I have a fair bit of experience lapping in previous cars and have done autocross as well. (Subaru STI, C5 corvette, various other cars)

Ideally I'd love something I can go have fun driving 8/10ths on the track and drive home with minimal fuss.

Thanks for your help appreciate it.
Hi Chris, given your previous experience, I would recommend pads, Castro's SRF and better tires than the Contis when you are ready for them. I ran a fully stock car at Summit Main in October around 1:30/lap and the rotors were hurting. The list above is the list of things that I will do in the spring to prep for the track and will also do camber plates.
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      11-17-2018, 04:17 PM   #3
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Thanks! Have you decided on what pads you'll use? I was looking at the Pagid RS29 or BMW M performance pads.

I've read a lot about excessive front tire wear without camber plates (and a general lack of negative camber stock) so thought I'd just invest in those up front.
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      11-17-2018, 04:22 PM   #4
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Thanks! Have you decided on what pads you'll use? I was looking at the Pagid RS29 or BMW M performance pads.

I've read a lot about excessive front tire wear without camber plates (and a general lack of negative camber stock) so thought I'd just invest in those up front.
I am going with PFC either 08 or 11. isjoey and ZM2 can give more info from personal experience.

Where are you located?
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      11-17-2018, 04:25 PM   #5
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I'm in Canada, about an hour outside Toronto. Will hit up Mosport, Cayuga and Calabogie most likely.
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      11-17-2018, 05:27 PM   #6
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You should have fun, as soon as you thaw in the summer. I would find a local shop and ask them for a camber plates recommendation. Our local shop (RRT in Sterling VA) recommends Vorshlag.
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      11-17-2018, 09:48 PM   #7
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You're not really going to find pads that work well for track and aren't super noisy for street use, there's just too much weight and speed with an M2 that the pad materials for braking in track conditions won't work for the street.

I went with Vorshlag camber plates, I think around -2.5 front & -2.0 rear camber, no toe, that still had my RE71Rs wear the shoulders way before the rest of the tire. I've gone through one set of RS29s and am using PFC08s, they're both pretty good, the PFCs worked out a bit cheaper but I can't compare wear yet. I started with OEM brake fluid for several days, I've switched to Motul RBF600 which is noticeably better.

I've used this setup at Mosport, my M2 is also my daily and the camber did introduce tram lining but it's not unreasonable.
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      11-18-2018, 05:20 AM   #8
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The PFCs hold up better than Pagid’s if you’re an aggressive braker, and have better feel.

I would start with the 08, which lasts longer, and if you want more bite go with the 11 (my preferred).
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      11-20-2018, 11:11 AM   #9
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You nailed it. My min is camber plates, high temp brake fluid, track brake pads, clip in harness, square track wheels/tires. I haven't found a true dual purpose brake pad, just swap them back and forth (OEM and aftermarket).
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      11-20-2018, 12:05 PM   #10
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I run the Pagid RS29 pads with Hankook RS-4s in a staggered 18" setup with no other mods. Easy peasy and relatively good wear from both the pads and tires. WARNING ⚠️ DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES RUN OEM BRAKE PADS OR TIRES ON TRACK. They will not hold up with an experienced track driver at the wheel.
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      11-20-2018, 05:48 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by rich8566 View Post
I run the Pagid RS29 pads with Hankook RS-4s in a staggered 18" setup with no other mods. Easy peasy and relatively good wear from both the pads and tires. WARNING ⚠️ DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES RUN OEM BRAKE PADS OR TIRES ON TRACK. They will not hold up with an experienced track driver at the wheel.
So the PCFs squeal during DD? I plant keep mine in once track season starts. Fortunately mine is not a DD.

Also curious what tire combo you run, what you tried and how you landed on this configuration.

Thanks.
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      11-20-2018, 10:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landapanda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich8566 View Post
I run the Pagid RS29 pads with Hankook RS-4s in a staggered 18" setup with no other mods. Easy peasy and relatively good wear from both the pads and tires. WARNING ⚠️ DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES RUN OEM BRAKE PADS OR TIRES ON TRACK. They will not hold up with an experienced track driver at the wheel.
So the PCFs squeal during DD? I plant keep mine in once track season starts. Fortunately mine is not a DD.

Also curious what tire combo you run, what you tried and how you landed on this configuration.

Thanks.
I struggled mightily to come up with my track wheel and tire combination. I'm running a staggered setup since it was the only way to maintain the correct tire height which differs front and rear on this car - 25.7"and 26.0 (as far as I recall). This maintains the proper revs per mile of the tires front and rear. I also wanted to keep clearance issues out of the picture since I have no interest in adding camber plates or wheel spacers. I really wanted a square setup but I could not get there given the front and rear OEM tire height diff. As far as going with 18" wheels, first, they are lighter and cheaper. The same goes for 18" tires since they are also cheaper for track duty. Last, the Hankooks have super stiff sidewalls, so they don't rollover like the OEM street tires.

I had prior experience with the excellent Hankook RS-3s on a prior car, so I felt ok going with the RS-4s. The only real downside is you can't rotate them on the fly front to rear and side to side, but mid season you can flip them and remount them to get max use out of the tires. Last, I used close to OEM wheel offsets front and rear - ET 30 front and ET40 rear.

Finally the wheel width differs by 1" front and rear. All in it was a great decision since the OEM M2 is far more neutral compared to my old M235i which had a lot more front end push - ie understeer.

I'm very happy with this easy peasy setup. Swapping pads and wheels now only takes me 40 minutes since I learned to jack up the one entire side of the car at a time making pad and tire changes super efficient.

Tires are 245/40-18 and 265/40-18.
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      11-21-2018, 06:00 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich8566 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by landapanda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich8566 View Post
I run the Pagid RS29 pads with Hankook RS-4s in a staggered 18" setup with no other mods. Easy peasy and relatively good wear from both the pads and tires. WARNING ⚠️ DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES RUN OEM BRAKE PADS OR TIRES ON TRACK. They will not hold up with an experienced track driver at the wheel.
So the PCFs squeal during DD? I plant keep mine in once track season starts. Fortunately mine is not a DD.

Also curious what tire combo you run, what you tried and how you landed on this configuration.

Thanks.
I struggled mightily to come up with my track wheel and tire combination. I'm running a staggered setup since it was the only way to maintain the correct tire height which differs front and rear on this car - 25.7"and 26.0 (as far as I recall). This maintains the proper revs per mile of the tires front and rear. I also wanted to keep clearance issues out of the picture since I have no interest in adding camber plates or wheel spacers. I really wanted a square setup but I could not get there given the front and rear OEM tire height diff. As far as going with 18" wheels, first, they are lighter and cheaper. The same goes for 18" tires since they are also cheaper for track duty. Last, the Hankooks have super stiff sidewalls, so they don't rollover like the OEM street tires.

I had prior experience with the excellent Hankook RS-3s on a prior car, so I felt ok going with the RS-4s. The only real downside is you can't rotate them on the fly front to rear and side to side, but mid season you can flip them and remount them to get max use out of the tires. Last, I used close to OEM wheel offsets front and rear - ET 30 front and ET40 rear.

Finally the wheel width differs by 1" front and rear. All in it was a great decision since the OEM M2 is far more neutral compared to my old M235i which had a lot more front end push - ie understeer.

I'm very happy with this easy peasy setup. Swapping pads and wheels now only takes me 40 minutes since I learned to jack up the one entire side of the car at a time making pad and tire changes super efficient.

Tires are 245/40-18 and 265/40-18.
Herein lies the question that needs to be answered first (1a and 1b). Then there are subsequent decisions driven mainly by cost, performance, practicality, weight and aesthetics in descending order:

1a. How much can tier diameter deviate from OEM setup before ability of electronic systems to function as designed is impacted - abs, traction control, stability control? Does this matter with DCS and ESC turned off?
1b. How much can tier diameter deviate from OEM setup before ability of mechanical systems to function as designed and their longevity is impacted - rear differential is the only one that comes to mind.

Cost:
2a - assuming comparison of same make/model or across manufacturers looking at similar material and build process, 18" wheels are cheaper. Same can be said for tires.
2b - 18" square setup will give you the ability to rotate tires front to back, saving you money. Arguably, this is true for a 19" setup.
2c - a square setup with the right tires will also allow you to flip those tires (run them backwards - counter to their intended rotation), giving you additional days of track time on the same tires, assuming there is usable rubber left.
2d - you can buy a set of takeoffs for ~$500-$600; you will usually have 2/3 of the heat cycles left in them. Similar tire setup will run at least $1,000-$1,200 new, but your selection will be limited to the offering of the reseller.

Performance
3. I think this one is a wash. Many competitive teams, including the Pirelli World Challenge M235iR cars run 18" square setup. Some may argue that 19" tires have a superior wall stiffness, resulting in less tire roll. There may be other arguments and I am interested in hearing those.

Practicality
4. If you invested in a big brake kit or are considering one, tour wheel choice may be impacted based on which BBK manufacturer you chose. However, most manufacturers kits are by design compatible with 18" wheels.

5. Weight - 18" vs 19" wheel/tire combo will generally save 2.5-5 pounds of rotational weight per wheel, 10-25 pounds total, which translates to roughly 20-50 pounds weight savings of sprung weight (assuming 1:2 ratio of sprung to unsprung weight for argument's sake - meaning a weight saving of one pound on a sprung component is an equivalent of saving two pounds on an unsprung component). Of course, one can buy expensive 19" wheels made of exotic materials that can be significantly lighter than 18" wheels, but I am assuming a budget of roughly $500/wheel, and not $2000/wheel or more.

6. Aesthetics - least, but somewhat important, as you will live with tour buying decision for months and years to come. However, 18" wheels are arguably still more popular for racing purposes, and there is a great, if not better, selection of competition wheels in this size that are pleasing to the eye.
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      11-21-2018, 06:00 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich8566 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by landapanda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich8566 View Post
I run the Pagid RS29 pads with Hankook RS-4s in a staggered 18" setup with no other mods. Easy peasy and relatively good wear from both the pads and tires. WARNING ⚠️ DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES RUN OEM BRAKE PADS OR TIRES ON TRACK. They will not hold up with an experienced track driver at the wheel.
So the PCFs squeal during DD? I plant keep mine in once track season starts. Fortunately mine is not a DD.

Also curious what tire combo you run, what you tried and how you landed on this configuration.

Thanks.
I struggled mightily to come up with my track wheel and tire combination. I'm running a staggered setup since it was the only way to maintain the correct tire height which differs front and rear on this car - 25.7"and 26.0 (as far as I recall). This maintains the proper revs per mile of the tires front and rear. I also wanted to keep clearance issues out of the picture since I have no interest in adding camber plates or wheel spacers. I really wanted a square setup but I could not get there given the front and rear OEM tire height diff. As far as going with 18" wheels, first, they are lighter and cheaper. The same goes for 18" tires since they are also cheaper for track duty. Last, the Hankooks have super stiff sidewalls, so they don't rollover like the OEM street tires.

I had prior experience with the excellent Hankook RS-3s on a prior car, so I felt ok going with the RS-4s. The only real downside is you can't rotate them on the fly front to rear and side to side, but mid season you can flip them and remount them to get max use out of the tires. Last, I used close to OEM wheel offsets front and rear - ET 30 front and ET40 rear.

Finally the wheel width differs by 1" front and rear. All in it was a great decision since the OEM M2 is far more neutral compared to my old M235i which had a lot more front end push - ie understeer.

I'm very happy with this easy peasy setup. Swapping pads and wheels now only takes me 40 minutes since I learned to jack up the one entire side of the car at a time making pad and tire changes super efficient.

Tires are 245/40-18 and 265/40-18.
That's very helpful thanks. How are the RS4's across different driving conditions? (Hot, cold, damp, dry etc)

If a stiff sidewall tire helps negate the need for camber plates that is good news.

I believe you can run a 265 square setup with a TPMS reset and driving 70km before lapping without and stability control effects etc. Will need someone here to confirm though.

What wheels did you end up going with?

Cheers,
Chris
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      11-21-2018, 06:12 AM   #15
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My $0.02 after 50+ track days in my M2:

-265/35/18 square if you want to be budget conscious

-If you want to go quicker, 19” staggered is the way to go, as there are more tire options wider than 265 for the rear. You’ll be able to put more power down coming out of the corners and the car is better balanced with a staggered setup (that’s how it was designed...)

-Tire diameters don’t matter if you’re running DSC off
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      11-21-2018, 07:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
My $0.02 after 50+ track days in my M2:

-265/35/18 square if you want to be budget conscious

-If you want to go quicker, 19" staggered is the way to go, as there are more tire options wider than 265 for the rear. You'll be able to put more power down coming out of the corners and the car is better balanced with a staggered setup (that's how it was designed...)

-Tire diameters don't matter if you're running DSC off
Thanks, can you run a 285 on the rear stock wheels or are they too wide for the stock wheel width? Would a 285/245 combo result in too much understeer versus say a 285/265 setup?
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      11-21-2018, 07:06 AM   #17
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255/285 is the best combo for the stock wheels.
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      11-21-2018, 08:01 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisM2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich8566 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by landapanda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich8566 View Post
I run the Pagid RS29 pads with Hankook RS-4s in a staggered 18" setup with no other mods. Easy peasy and relatively good wear from both the pads and tires. WARNING ⚠️ DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES RUN OEM BRAKE PADS OR TIRES ON TRACK. They will not hold up with an experienced track driver at the wheel.
So the PCFs squeal during DD? I plant keep mine in once track season starts. Fortunately mine is not a DD.

Also curious what tire combo you run, what you tried and how you landed on this configuration.

Thanks.
I struggled mightily to come up with my track wheel and tire combination. I'm running a staggered setup since it was the only way to maintain the correct tire height which differs front and rear on this car - 25.7"and 26.0 (as far as I recall). This maintains the proper revs per mile of the tires front and rear. I also wanted to keep clearance issues out of the picture since I have no interest in adding camber plates or wheel spacers. I really wanted a square setup but I could not get there given the front and rear OEM tire height diff. As far as going with 18" wheels, first, they are lighter and cheaper. The same goes for 18" tires since they are also cheaper for track duty. Last, the Hankooks have super stiff sidewalls, so they don't rollover like the OEM street tires.

I had prior experience with the excellent Hankook RS-3s on a prior car, so I felt ok going with the RS-4s. The only real downside is you can't rotate them on the fly front to rear and side to side, but mid season you can flip them and remount them to get max use out of the tires. Last, I used close to OEM wheel offsets front and rear - ET 30 front and ET40 rear.

Finally the wheel width differs by 1" front and rear. All in it was a great decision since the OEM M2 is far more neutral compared to my old M235i which had a lot more front end push - ie understeer.

I'm very happy with this easy peasy setup. Swapping pads and wheels now only takes me 40 minutes since I learned to jack up the one entire side of the car at a time making pad and tire changes super efficient.

Tires are 245/40-18 and 265/40-18.
That's very helpful thanks. How are the RS4's across different driving conditions? (Hot, cold, damp, dry etc)

If a stiff sidewall tire helps negate the need for camber plates that is good news.

I believe you can run a 265 square setup with a TPMS reset and driving 70km before lapping without and stability control effects etc. Will need someone here to confirm though.

What wheels did you end up going with?

Cheers,
Chris
The Hankook RS-4 is very good in warm and hot weather. More than good once brought up to temp cool and damp conditions and and not as good as OEM in the wet. As I mentioned, wear rates on track are great and the tires don't rollover and in my view, they are relatively cheap compared to other tires. As far as wheels, nothing super special - RIAL P10 18x8 ET30 and 18x9 ET40.
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      11-21-2018, 11:42 AM   #19
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A lot of overthinking in this thread - it's not F1.

If you're a beginner to intermediate driver, it really doesn't matter what setup you have until you get more seat time. If you're more advanced and you don't mind spending a lot of money on tires, go staggered with max width R compounds. Otherwise, go 18 square with R comps. I fit 275/18 NT01s all around with camber plates, suspension and spacers. A very common setup amongst M3 drivers.
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      11-21-2018, 01:58 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
A lot of overthinking in this thread - it's not F1.

If you're a beginner to intermediate driver, it really doesn't matter what setup you have until you get more seat time. If you're more advanced and you don't mind spending a lot of money on tires, go staggered with max width R compounds. Otherwise, go 18 square with R comps. I fit 275/18 NT01s all around with camber plates, suspension and spacers. A very common setup amongst M3 drivers.
Thanks you for the condescending comment Mr F1. Overthinking is what we are good at here in this forum - as demonstrated by the superior selection of our mode of transportation!

Respectfully.
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      11-21-2018, 04:08 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
A lot of overthinking in this thread - it's not F1.

If you're a beginner to intermediate driver, it really doesn't matter what setup you have until you get more seat time. If you're more advanced and you don't mind spending a lot of money on tires, go staggered with max width R compounds. Otherwise, go 18 square with R comps. I fit 275/18 NT01s all around with camber plates, suspension and spacers. A very common setup amongst M3 drivers.
The whole purpose of the forum is to share information. I'd say helping people from melting stock pads to their rotors, chunking stock tires, what tire sizes / brand tend to work well (and fit) is all a good thing no?
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      11-21-2018, 04:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
A lot of overthinking in this thread - it's not F1.

If you're a beginner to intermediate driver, it really doesn't matter what setup you have until you get more seat time. If you're more advanced and you don't mind spending a lot of money on tires, go staggered with max width R compounds. Otherwise, go 18 square with R comps. I fit 275/18 NT01s all around with camber plates, suspension and spacers. A very common setup amongst M3 drivers.
OP was looking for simple. That's what I provided. He followed up for more details and I provided more. Other posters filled in with more opinions. All good info for everyone. Thanks.
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